New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[badgenetics1]

Just about 2 months. I don't think that's enough time to see results from it, but I could be wrong.

 

[squeegee]

Some good results from a 0.5mm Derma roller.







http://www.dermalintegrity.com/before/hair_loss_alopecia.html

 

[princessRambo]

Some good results from a 0.5mm Derma roller.







http://www.dermalintegrity.com/before/hair_loss_alopecia.html

Did you notice the roller size they used? 0.05mm O___o

 

[squeegee]

CR5 (.05 mm) skin roller massage device

Pretty impressive results.

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All you need to know about the skin...

The skin or cutis covers the entire outer surface of the body. Structurally, the skin consists of two layers which differ in function, histological appearance and their embryological origin. The outer layer or epidermis is formed by an epithelium and is of ectodermal origin. The underlying thicker layer, the dermis, consists of connective tissue and develops from the mesoderm. Beneath the two layers we find a subcutaneous layer of loose connective tissue, the hypodermis or subcutis, which binds the skin to underlying structures. Hair, nails and sweat and sebaceous glands are of epithelial origin and collectively called the appendages of the skin. The skin and its appendages together are called the integumentary system.

http://www.lab.anhb.uwa.edu.au/mb140/CorePages/Integumentary/Integum.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin


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How deep is the graft in the recipient area in a hair transplantation?

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http://www.hairtransplant.com/studies/study_follicle1.htm

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Instrument​	Size​	Diameter (mm)​	Length of 1000 Follicular Units​	Depth​
B.D. Needle​	19G​	1.08mm​	1080 mm​	Deeper than Follicle length​
B.D. Needle​	18G​	1.26mm​	1260 mm​	Deeper than Follicle length​
Mini Blade​	SP91​	1.97mm​	985 mm​	Exactly follicle length ​

Size

The terminal hair shaft usually has a diameter of 60 - 85 microns extending 3.5mm -
5.0 mm deep into the subcutaneous fat. The depth of the incision can be measured,
(and fixed), to equal the length of the patient's follicles

 

[RisingFist]

benjt, I don't think you should restart minoxidil since it gives you sides. You don't know yet if this treatment will halt your hair loss in a few months and you might get a lot more then 20 terminal hairs. Give it some time first, if you still feel the need for a topical there's already lots of discussions for alternatives. Give that a try later and if you still don't get results, which I would be very surprised since I think there are better topicals then minoxidil, you can go back to it if you're willing to endure the sides.

 

[closetmetrosexual]

I have no idea.. I wish I knew the answer, I suspect it might rapidly increase the scalp saturation threshold that I mentioned earlier, in that one study where they applied minoxidil up to 8 times a day, they mentioned that there is a threshold of systemic absorption that is reached when the scalp is saturated with minoxidil, adding further minoxidil will not go systemic, I also suspect this might also reduce the time for minoxidil to get fully absorbed (normal absorption time being about 4 hours max). Look at the hypothetical extremes, assume there is magical brush that will increase skin permeation of minoxidil by one trillion times. We know that there is a systemic threshold for minoxidil when skin saturation is reached. So use the magic brush and apply minoxidil, what happens? bam it immediately saturates the scalp within seconds. The systemic treshhold is reached and applying further minoxidil even with the magic brush will make make it go more systemic, but what will happen I suspect is your follicles will be drowned in minoxidil for a while. Now look at the other extreme, assume there is a magic brush, that does the opposite, it diminishes skin absorption by 1 trillion times, use it and apply minoxidil. What will happen? You will likely have a swimming pool of minoxidil on your head for days ...This is all broscience certified...So in short, I don't know if brushing increases systemic absorption of minoxidil

Are you yourself brushing before you apply minoxidil?

I have a boar bristle brush. Not anything able to rotate.
That should do as well, don't you think?

 

[Jlyncher]

Did you notice the roller size they used? 0.05mm O___o

Apparently a typo. If you go to the product page they only sell .2, .3, and .5mm, not .05, lol. http://ens-dermalintegrity.bridgelabs.ca/templates/webStore.php?pageid=28

Also, to clear up any confusion they say, "Our CR3 is now called MR3--same great roller, just new packaging to prevent copy-cat rollers.".

And yes, those results look good squeeg.

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The boar brush I bought really wanted to pull all my hair out, so I use the teeth of my comb to "perturb". Don't know if it helps, but it can't hurt.

 

[squeegee]

I just mildly rolled it. I had the itch. Could not resist LOL .. 3mm all in. But I didn't go crazy.. just slow and deep roll.

Gotta roll it!

 

[princessRambo]

Apparently a typo. If you go to the product page they only sell .2, .3, and .5mm, not .05, lol. http://ens-dermalintegrity.bridgelabs.ca/templates/webStore.php?pageid=28

Also, to clear up any confusion they say, "Our CR3 is now called MR3--same great roller, just new packaging to prevent copy-cat rollers.".

And yes, those results look good squeeg.

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The boar brush I bought really wanted to pull all my hair out, so I use the teeth of my comb to "perturb". Don't know if it helps, but it can't hurt.

i just went crazy with a 0.5mm roller fully pressed in. Results: I freaking loved it, almost 0 pain, except around the temples, it wasn't bad at all. Then when I was done, I closely examined everywhere, zero blood, but my scalp was as red as when I used the 1.5mm. Intersting:wow:

 

[shivers20]

Should we be limiting our intake of Omega-3 fats during days 1-3 during the inflammation/increased pge2 stage,

Dietary Fish Oil Reduces Basal and Ultraviolet B-Generated PGE2 Levels in Skin and Increases the Threshold to Provocation of Polymorphic Light Eruption

The sunburn response is markedly reduced by dietary fish oil rich in -3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Because prostaglandins mediate the vasodilatation, we examined the effect of fish oil on ultraviolet (UV) B-induced prostaglandin metabolism. In addition we assessed the potential photoprotective effect of fish oil in light-sensitive patients. Thirteen patients with polymorphic light eruption received dietary supplements of fish oil rich in -3 polyunsaturated fatty acids for 3 months. At baseline and 3 months, the minimal erythema dose of UVB irradiation was determined, and a graded UVA challenge given to a forearm to assess the threshold dose for papule provocation. Suction blisters were raised on the other forearm, on control skin, and on skin irradiated with four times the minimal erythema dose of UVB 24 h previously, and blister fluid prostaglandin E2 was measured by radioimmunoassay. Following 3 months of fish oil, the mean minimal erythema dose of UVB irradiation increased from 19.8 2.6 to 33.8 3.7 mJ/cm2 (mean SEM), p < 0.01. The UVA provocation test was positive in 10 patients at baseline, and after 3 months nine of these showed reduced sensitivity to papule provocation, p < 0.001. Before fish oil, PGE2 increased from 8.6 (SEM 2.1) ng/ml in control skin to 27.2 (11) ng/ml after UVB, p < 0.01. Following 3 months of fish oil, PGE2 decreased to 4.1 (1) and 9.6 (2.4) ng/ml in control and irradiated skin, respectively, p < 0.05. Reduction of UV-induced inflammation by fish oil may be due, at least partially, to lowered prostaglandin E2 levels. The photoprotection against UVA-provocation of a papular response suggests a clinical application for fish oil in polymorphic light eruption.

 

[odalbak]

Benjt, nice to know that you're seeing change however small but still significant without minoxidil. Don't forget it takes time for neogenetic hair to become fully adult. There are certainly many other brand new hairs about to sprout. I want to continue dermarolling in like 6 months but without minoxidil this time, for another 6 months and hopefully be done with all this. We'll see.

benjt, what kind of daily massage do you do exactly. On your scalp I mean. Could you describe it? Have you already?

 

[cthulhu2.0]

Should we be limiting our intake of Omega-3 fats during days 1-3 during the inflammation/increased pge2 stage,

Dietary Fish Oil Reduces Basal and Ultraviolet B-Generated PGE2 Levels in Skin and Increases the Threshold to Provocation of Polymorphic Light Eruption

The sunburn response is markedly reduced by dietary fish oil rich in -3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Because prostaglandins mediate the vasodilatation, we examined the effect of fish oil on ultraviolet (UV) B-induced prostaglandin metabolism. In addition we assessed the potential photoprotective effect of fish oil in light-sensitive patients. Thirteen patients with polymorphic light eruption received dietary supplements of fish oil rich in -3 polyunsaturated fatty acids for 3 months. At baseline and 3 months, the minimal erythema dose of UVB irradiation was determined, and a graded UVA challenge given to a forearm to assess the threshold dose for papule provocation. Suction blisters were raised on the other forearm, on control skin, and on skin irradiated with four times the minimal erythema dose of UVB 24 h previously, and blister fluid prostaglandin E2 was measured by radioimmunoassay. Following 3 months of fish oil, the mean minimal erythema dose of UVB irradiation increased from 19.8 2.6 to 33.8 3.7 mJ/cm2 (mean SEM), p < 0.01. The UVA provocation test was positive in 10 patients at baseline, and after 3 months nine of these showed reduced sensitivity to papule provocation, p < 0.001. Before fish oil, PGE2 increased from 8.6 (SEM 2.1) ng/ml in control skin to 27.2 (11) ng/ml after UVB, p < 0.01. Following 3 months of fish oil, PGE2 decreased to 4.1 (1) and 9.6 (2.4) ng/ml in control and irradiated skin, respectively, p < 0.05. Reduction of UV-induced inflammation by fish oil may be due, at least partially, to lowered prostaglandin E2 levels. The photoprotection against UVA-provocation of a papular response suggests a clinical application for fish oil in polymorphic light eruption.

I don't believe PGE2 is a hair growth stimulant. From reading the study, PGE2 increases after sunburns and I seriously doubt that sunburns have the ability to generate hair growth. Plus, east asian countries consume a lot of omega 3's through plant and fish sources and have lower incidences of hairloss.

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It was also my understanding that Minoxidil works by opening up Potassium channels

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and not through a promotion of pge2

 

[hellouser]

I don't believe PGE2 is a hair growth stimulant. From reading the study, PGE2 increases after sunburns and I seriously doubt that sunburns have the ability to generate hair growth. Plus, east asian countries consume a lot of omega 3's through plant and fish sources and have lower incidences of hairloss.

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It was also my understanding that Minoxidil works by opening up Potassium channels

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and not through a promotion of pge2

PGE2 is supposed to raise FGF-9 levels which Follica states induces new hair growth. Thus:

Wound -> minoxidil -> PGE2 -> FGF-9 -> New Hair Follicle -> Look Good -> Get Laid

 

[theRA]

I just mildly rolled it. I had the itch. Could not resist LOL .. 3mm all in. But I didn't go crazy.. just slow and deep roll.

Gotta roll it!

same here, actually didnt hurt that much, bearable (didnt have to repeat sgt. Barnes lines from platoon - TAKE THE PAIN!!!"

 

[squeegee]

PGE2 is supposed to raise FGF-9 levels which Follica states induces new hair growth. Thus:

Wound -> minoxidil -> PGE2 -> FGF-9 -> New Hair Follicle -> Look Good -> Get Laid

hahahahahahaha! unk:

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same here, actually didnt hurt that much, bearable (didnt have to repeat sgt. Barnes lines from platoon - TAKE THE PAIN!!!"

[video=youtube;oA6FHBCWAyY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA6FHBCWAyY[/video]

 

[opti]

Some good results from a 0.5mm Derma roller.







http://www.dermalintegrity.com/before/hair_loss_alopecia.html

nice results but they didn t get they temples back....
do you guys cream ur skin after rolling in the following days?My head gets really dry after rolling and while shedding dead skin and i dont know if its a good sign

 

[albert]

nice results but they didn t get they temples back....

If you recover a lot of density, I guess you will be able to get a small FUE done for the temples and you'll be ready to get laid also, they used a 0.5mm a not a 1.5mm (at least).

 

[Jaded]

Some good results from a 0.5mm Derma roller.







http://www.dermalintegrity.com/before/hair_loss_alopecia.html

Looking that the pics on the right, how they are suppose to dermaroll without losing half the hair they already got?

 

[mj9]

PGE2 is supposed to raise FGF-9 levels which Follica states induces new hair growth. Thus:

Wound -> minoxidil -> PGE2 -> FGF-9 -> New Hair Follicle -> Look Good -> Get Laid

Can someone provide links to studies that show the following?

minoxidil promotes PGE2
PGE2 promotes FGF9


Sorry there are 159 pages so difficult to find the links again

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Also, it would be good to list everything that promotes FGF9 (directly or indirectly) and with references

 

[Jaded]

@Jaded - I have short-medium lenght hair (4-5 cm), and I don't pluck any hair when I dermaroll ?!?! (well ok, maybe 2). I clean the scalp with the water saline & betadine solution which wet the hair enough to allow me to use the dermaroller smoothly.

I lost loads of hair, i started on the thinning parts (middle), plucked tons of hair, the dermaroller was full of hair, had to cut my hair to 6mm so my hair woudn't look uneven and then dermarolled again, now all the scalp and still lost lots of hair.

I guess keeping the hair short is the trick (for people who actually can have it that way - I do). Shaving of course is another option. You can also buy a dermapen as suggested before on this thread, or either use the dermaroller a dermapen (instead of "rolling", just put the roller in a specific place, push - so the needles go inside -, then pull it out, repeat).

I just tried to press instead of rolling and amazingly lost almost zero hair. I even tried on the no affected balding areas and still no hair lost. I guess jabbing 2mm in the hair shaft and then rolling (pulling it) is not a good idea specially with longer hair.