New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[selfaware]

.... You probably started reading this thread after I threw my rage-quit tantrum .

LOL unk:


ps; that's the abstract I saw also...the link you posted....
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0939641107002111

 

[uncomfortable man]

One word. Chickenblood.

 

[marku]

Thanks for that Shivers. Relating this back to someone's earlier question...."does DR really break up the 'bad' collagen?". A good question, since the % of skin-area actually impacted in a rolling session might be a pretty low%. And even a long rolling session which might get a decent % of area...well, are the needles actually 'breaking' collagen, or just pushing it aside for a moment?

And if the needles are indeed 'breaking' it up....what's happening to the pieces? Are they simply knitting back together? Or even if not knitting back together, if they're still there, aren't they still crushing our poor little follicles?

One presumes the body has some mechanism/process for actually -dissolving- and removing 'bad' collagen. Many of the studies cited here (and claims from DR places) touch on this at least peripherally...saying that 'scars are removed'. But is that 'removal' simply a result of new growth underneath causing top-skin to flake off, and carrying the scar with it?

We're not talking about surface-scars though. We're talking about 'bad' collagen halfway down into the dermis, where the follicle is.

Please pardon me if this has already been discussed and answered. I've not read every thread on this forum...yikes!...lol...and I've not seen mention of actual collagen-removal yet, in the 150 pgs of this thread. Does someone have knowledge of studies of how this deeper sub-surface 'bad' collagen is actually dissolved, and removed ?? I'd be grateful for any links or pointers to further research. It seems that enhancing/accelerating that process in a 'targeted' way could be very beneficial.

.

anyone have any answers to this?

 

[princessRambo]

LOL unk:


ps; that's the abstract I saw also...the link you posted....
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0939641107002111

Here is the full study comparing brushing to iontophoresis. It's an interesting read for sure: link

One word. Chickenblood

You are making me uncomfortable...

 

[odalbak]

In the process of destroying fibrotic tissues with dermarolling, what is involved exactly? Is it only the perforation by the needles or is there more at play on a biochemical level?

 

[benjt]

odalbak, you asked for results. I got to report some interesting, but not - in my opinion - spectacular results.

The interesting thing is that I definitely got new terminal hair. Not a lot, like 20 - but hey, that's more than minoxidil did for me (but at least minoxidil completely stopped new loss for me when I still used it). All of the new terminal ones are only sprouting from my hairline. I covered huge areas with rolling in my temples, but still all of the new terminal hair is only at the hairline. So if I continue at this rate, it would take me years to get from my NW3 state back to NW1. Also, the rolling did not stop my shedding, so I still get plenty of hair in my towel when drying my head after showering. Wondering if that's a battle I could win and if rolling + massages would get me more new hair than I'm losing.

Then again, using minoxidil might maybe take care of the shedding, and who knows how much minoxidil would speed up the recreation of terminal hair. But for now, as my minoxidil sides have not yet vanished, I will not restart taking minoxidil at lower doses.

Bottom line: hell yeah, I got new terminal hair, without minoxidil, finasteride, dutasteride, RU, CB or anything else!, but only at my hairline. The question is also if the speed at which I'm getting new terminal hair is "useful". But the info that you can get new terminal hair just through rolling and scalp massages (so we dont really know if the rolling or the massages did it, or the combination) might be useful here. On the other hand, we already knew from BBQ guy that you can get terminal hair from deep wounding, so it's nothing completely new. But I guess I'm among the first in the community here to report new terminal hair without any topicals or finasteride/dutasteride/CB/RU.

 

[DesperateOne]

odalbak, you asked for results. I got to report some interesting, but not - in my opinion - spectacular results.

The interesting thing is that I definitely got new terminal hair. Not a lot, like 20 - but hey, that's more than minoxidil did for me (but at least minoxidil completely stopped new loss for me when I still used it). All of the new terminal ones are only sprouting from my hairline. I covered huge areas with rolling in my temples, but still all of the new terminal hair is only at the hairline. So if I continue at this rate, it would take me years to get from my NW3 state back to NW1. Also, the rolling did not stop my shedding, so I still get plenty of hair in my towel when drying my head after showering. Wondering if that's a battle I could win and if rolling + massages would get me more new hair than I'm losing.

Then again, using minoxidil might maybe take care of the shedding, and who knows how much minoxidil would speed up the recreation of terminal hair. But for now, as my minoxidil sides have not yet vanished, I will not restart taking minoxidil at lower doses.

Bottom line: hell yeah, I got new terminal hair, without minoxidil, finasteride, dutasteride, RU, CB or anything else!, but only at my hairline. The question is also if the speed at which I'm getting new terminal hair is "useful". But the info that you can get new terminal hair just through rolling and scalp massages (so we dont really know if the rolling or the massages did it, or the combination) might be useful here. On the other hand, we already knew from BBQ guy that you can get terminal hair from deep wounding, so it's nothing completely new. But I guess I'm among the first in the community here to report new terminal hair without any topicals or finasteride/dutasteride/CB/RU.

How many times do you massage the scalp a week, or do you do it daily? Also, what size needle are you using?
Congrats, on your new regrowth. It is really hard to see people regrow hair that aren't in any DHT blockers.

 

[benjt]

I do 15 to 20 minutes of scalp massaging per day.

I am not very enthusiastic about those approx. 20 new terminal hairs. It is certainly a proof of concept - proof, that you can get regrowth of new terminal hair without any topicals, chemicals, and only with massaging + dermarolling. On the other hand, how many hundreds of holes did I already punch into my scalp to get 20 new terminal hairs at my hair line?

This proof of concept might be the proof that Follica's method works. If I can get 20 new terminal hairs with a very unsophisticated approach, this may mean that with a very well controlled and computer-aided approach, success can be systemized.

It might also be that these 20 new terminal hairs are just the beginning, and that follicle neogenesis will actually accelerate, i.e., maybe I'm just seeing the vanguard here. But if not: I'm not willing to continue derma rolling for many years if I will only generate approx. 20 new terminal hairs every 2 months.

But all of this, of course, is only speculation. Time will tell and I will keep you guys updated. At least we got our proof of concept now, which might indicate that Follica's approach works, and maybe there are ways to optimize my protocol.

 

[albert]

In the process of destroying fibrotic tissues with dermarolling, what is involved exactly? Is it only the perforation by the needles or is there more at play on a biochemical level?

Please someone explain this, I'm also interested.

 

[opti]

dammit im shedding dead skin like crazy and that even with a 0,5mm DR. Hope its a good sign

 

[Cody1212]

I think the trauma of dermarolling has caused some shedding. I am considering stamping or using a dermapen in the future. Also Princess Rambo and squeegee seem to be the two most knowledgeable and outspoken on the subject and squeegee says go deep with references to support his opinion and rambo says superficial with references as well, so I'm curious what everyone else is seeing anecdotally. I have had more success with light rolling but who knows.

Oh also, I do notice significant popping and crunching on the top and vertex. I do not get that popping sound on the slick bald temple region. I would think that's fibrosis but why wouldn't the temples be fibrotic if that theory is correct?

 

[closetmetrosexual]

I have talked about this in this thread and mentioned studies showing that simply brushing vigorously with a rotating bristle brush for 10 seconds was equivalent to 10mn of iontophoresis.

It's sad people don't take this kind of stuff seriously though, even though it's backed by carefully, very well design research. I mean it only takes like 10 seconds to go crazy mad brushing your scalp and apply your topical to increase absorption possibly 100 times more. People like the exotic, rare stuff, made from a dark corner of the world in an obscure lab, stuff like cb, oc, ru, scalp med or whatever the hell these things are called, stuff that the shady dark lab selling these products probably have zillions of shills polluting the forums disguised as so called knowledgeable people with 1 trillion post count and what not, when something as simple as vigorously brushing can make your existing cheap topical act like they are on steroids. But it is too easy I guess, we want the complicated stuff.

Would we not risk absorbing too much systemically (minoxidil) if brushing prior to application?
If ten times as much goes in, does it mean ten times as much reaches the bloodstream?

 

[princessRambo]

Would we not risk absorbing too much systemically (minoxidil) if brushing prior to application?
If ten times as much goes in, does it mean ten times as much reaches the bloodstream?

I have no idea.. I wish I knew the answer, I suspect it might rapidly increase the scalp saturation threshold that I mentioned earlier, in that one study where they applied minoxidil up to 8 times a day, they mentioned that there is a threshold of systemic absorption that is reached when the scalp is saturated with minoxidil, adding further minoxidil will not go systemic, I also suspect this might also reduce the time for minoxidil to get fully absorbed (normal absorption time being about 4 hours max). Look at the hypothetical extremes, assume there is magical brush that will increase skin permeation of minoxidil by one trillion times. We know that there is a systemic threshold for minoxidil when skin saturation is reached. So use the magic brush and apply minoxidil, what happens? bam it immediately saturates the scalp within seconds. The systemic treshhold is reached and applying further minoxidil even with the magic brush will make make it go more systemic, but what will happen I suspect is your follicles will be drowned in minoxidil for a while. Now look at the other extreme, assume there is a magic brush, that does the opposite, it diminishes skin absorption by 1 trillion times, use it and apply minoxidil. What will happen? You will likely have a swimming pool of minoxidil on your head for days ...This is all broscience certified...So in short, I don't know if brushing increases systemic absorption of minoxidil

- - - Updated - - -

I think the trauma of dermarolling has caused some shedding. I am considering stamping or using a dermapen in the future. Also Princess Rambo and squeegee seem to be the two most knowledgeable and outspoken on the subject and squeegee says go deep with references to support his opinion and rambo says superficial with references as well, so I'm curious what everyone else is seeing anecdotally. I have had more success with light rolling but who knows.

Oh also, I do notice significant popping and crunching on the top and vertex. I do not get that popping sound on the slick bald temple region. I would think that's fibrosis but why wouldn't the temples be fibrotic if that theory is correct?

I have suggested people use the indian study protocol because it is easier, less painful and the results were good, really good. I still had doubts about needle length but since reading benjt study about scalp and dermis depth in balding vs non-balding, I am convinced 1.5 is more than enough. What some other people are trying to achieve is

1. replicate the follica finding about WIHN, which I think is a loooooog shot in the dark, given the complexity of the procedure, I am in this category.

2. replicate the barbecue guy using 2+ mm needles, which I think is simply not possible with a dermaroller. I don't have enough knowledge to claim that longer needles will give you better results, there is the risk of microscopic scar tissues and what not, the pseudo-studies I have seen about dermarollers so far are almost all documents produced by companies selling so called rollers and claiming a lot of things. The biggest question I am looking for answering at this moment is: Does dermarolling reduces deep fibrosis and mast cells caused by male pattern baldness? If I can find a peer reviewed study even hitting at such thing, I will let go of my paranoia, for now, I can't ignore the risk of scarring alopecia. So yeah, stick with light rolling for now, it's safe and easy.

 

[Sparky4444]

...seems like a lot of us are shedding.....winter shed already??? I am shedding like a b-i-t-c-h ....I have only been rolling on my left temple...minoxidil once every couple of days, once/day...

...we're like women who's periods sync up..except with have Shed Sync lmao!!!

 

[mj9]

Patent - Fibroblast growth factor-9 promotes hair follicle regeneration after wounding

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2361119A1?cl=en

 

[selfaware]

I'd posted a day or two ago that I'd read about emu-oil being best applied some hours after 'wounding'.

I just happened across that study again, so I thought I'd post the original text....

"Promotion of second intention wound healing by emu oil lotion: comparative results with furasin, polysporin, and cortisone."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9858176



Previous studies showed that twice-daily application of emu oil lotion (mixture of emu oil/fat, vitamin E, and botanical oil) immediately after creation of full-thickness skin defects delayed wound healing 6 days later, perhaps owing to its antiinflammatory actions. If administration was delayed for 48 hours, a two-fold promotion of wound contraction, epithelialization, and infiltration of organized granulation tissue was observed. In the present study, emu oil lotion was applied to full-thickness skin defects in rodents 24 hours after surgery. Six days postoperatively, wound contraction and infiltration of fronts of epithelialized and granulation tissue were assessed. Results indicated a two-fold promotion of all of the above parameters with emu oil lotion. No such effects were exerted by pure emu oil, furasin, cortaid, or polysporin. Data obtained indicate promise for emu oil lotion as an aid in treating full-thickness skin defects if applied after the major postinflammatory stages of wound healing have transpired.

 

[Sparky4444]

Patent - Fibroblast growth factor-9 promotes hair follicle regeneration after wounding

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2361119A1?cl=en

That should keep some on this thread busy for a while!!

 

[DesperateOne]

Patent - Fibroblast growth factor-9 promotes hair follicle regeneration after wounding

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2361119A1?cl=en

Umm, have you not read the thread? Fgf9 is old news, we have been discussing it here for a long time and know it's the needed growth factor. However, as already stated, adding it directly is extremely dangerous because it can cause skin cancer and the only supplier comes from the depths of the Himalayas. It is also insanely expensive, so yeah we won't take that path because we need to time it perfectly or else it wont work.

- - - Updated - - -

...seems like a lot of us are shedding.....winter shed already??? I am shedding like a b-i-t-c-h ....I have only been rolling on my left temple...minoxidil once every couple of days, once/day...

...we're like women who's periods sync up..except with have Shed Sync lmao!!!

Lmao Unfortunately, this does seem to be true. I just had a massive shed a week ago, recovering from it now. If it's winter we should be gaining hair, it gets colder with no hair .
I been reading people's stories and it seems to happen like this.
After the first month or so, people notice faster growth and thicker hair, they're elated. Month two, things take a turn for the worse, shedding occurs and ruins the party. All we can do is hope its a good thing, what else can we do.

 

[badgenetics1]

First, just wanted to thank everyone who is continuing to contribute to this thread. While I mostly lurk, I find the posts pretty interesting and I'm impressed with how scientific this thread is.

Just finished my 5th session (I think), and as usual I took a photo. Since there seems to be a lot of demand for before/after photos, I figured I'd share mine. Here are two photos I took about a week before rolling:



And here is the picture I took tonight (I've got some minor bleeding that you can see):


Hair is about the same in length in all photos, and the lighting is exactly the same.

While I still have a ways to go, I'm feeling pretty good about this treatment. I'm following the Indian study pretty much exactly - I dermaroll 1.5mm every Friday and I apply 5% minoxidil foam twice a day except on Fridays. In addition to that, I'm taking 1mg finasteride daily and I'm using RegenePure DR shampoo on M-W-F. I used to use S5 cream but I dropped it in case it interferes with the healing process.

 

[ganonford]

baggenetics1... how long have you been on finasteride?