New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?
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DesperateOne
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This should be great for reducing pain, I will have to try it next time.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-quick-way-to-reduce-pain
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-quick-way-to-reduce-pain
Thanks for that Shivers. Relating this back to someone's earlier question...."does DR really break up the 'bad' collagen?". A good question, since the % of skin-area actually impacted in a rolling session might be a pretty low%. And even a long rolling session which might get a decent % of area...well, are the needles actually 'breaking' collagen, or just pushing it aside for a moment?
And if the needles are indeed 'breaking' it up....what's happening to the pieces? Are they simply knitting back together? Or even if not knitting back together, if they're still there, aren't they still crushing our poor little follicles?
One presumes the body has some mechanism/process for actually -dissolving- and removing 'bad' collagen. Many of the studies cited here (and claims from DR places) touch on this at least peripherally...saying that 'scars are removed'. But is that 'removal' simply a result of new growth underneath causing top-skin to flake off, and carrying the scar with it?
We're not talking about surface-scars though. We're talking about 'bad' collagen halfway down into the dermis, where the follicle is.
Please pardon me if this has already been discussed and answered. I've not read every thread on this forum...yikes!...lol...and I've not seen mention of actual collagen-removal yet, in the 150 pgs of this thread. Does someone have knowledge of studies of how this deeper sub-surface 'bad' collagen is actually dissolved, and removed ?? I'd be grateful for any links or pointers to further research. It seems that enhancing/accelerating that process in a 'targeted' way could be very beneficial.
Along those lines, I wonder at not seeing any ref. to Verapamil yet. That's a calcium-channel blocker that's normally an oral systemic targeted at heart problems; but is used topically for healing the penile fibrosis/plaques causing Peyronie's disease. It used to be only injected at each plaque site (yikes!...lol), but several studies were done using Iontophoresis to drive it in, and these studies showed good results.
Which brings up another question/suggestion...
Admittedly, this thread is specifically about DR'ing....yet it's obviously also about the topicals helpful with DR'ing...and even somewhat about how DR'ing as an enhancement of any/all topical-treatments. So I think it's OK to bring this up here...
I've not seen anyone talk about Iontophoresis as a method of driving topicals in, in a full-area manner, and without noxious carriers.
The electronics required are dirt-simple. A simple pulse-gen is all that's required. Electrode can be as simple as a piece of SS screen, I'd think. Have to give some thought to how to keep 'solution' in place tho... For bald areas...especially small ones, an SS screen on top of a thin sponge would be enough to do the job for 5 min I think.
For an entire head with hair...the solution could be gelled/thickened, rubbed into hair all over, and with enough volume to provide conductive-path to the top surface of hair, and full-size SS screen pressed over head in helmet-shape.
As I recall from reading those Peyronie's studies a few years back, I think they ran 20 minute sessions...but their goal was to drive the Verapamil DEEP...all the way through the skin, and into the corpos cavernosum. We only need to drive in a single MM, or two....so I'm thinking that our setup would only need to give us 5-10 minutes with ease and practicality. In other words, if our gel dries out, or drips off the head, in only 5 minutes, that'd be ok.
Well....fwiw....something to think about.
princessRambo
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This person is a chemist? I almost spilled my custom hot tea concoction when I read this, I laughed so hard I scared the $hit out of my baby boy. Well I am afraid to say, he is indeed a broscientist certified chemist alright:The person who made this is a very respectable chemist. He has helped forum members when it comes to chemistry in baldness i trust him. But since you had a point i gave him the message his reply was.
1. if water soluble substances penetrate so good..why when bathing for hours in the dead sea with a salinity of 33% peoples not died in 10 minutes...
2. water penetrate nothing..water evaporate quickliy and create the ilusion of penetration.
3. water evaporate quickly ...10% pg in water, after 10 min the water is gone and you have 80% pg on the skin
so by using cox1 blocker we dont have to worry about pgd2 blocker? because blocking cox1 stops pgd2 in the first place?
1. if water soluble substances penetrate so good..why when bathing for hours in the dead sea with a salinity of 33% peoples not died in 10 minutes...
For one, he has a very low ability to properly sentence a phrase in English for a famous chemist in online forums. There is so many fails with this I don't even where to starts. Water does get through the skin, in fact it does it extremely well. The fact is, the skin is the largest organ in the body and has mechanisms for regulating everything from temperature to permeation. A simple example is the minoxidil study I posted yesterday. It doesn't matter how much minoxidil you apply to the scalp, when a treshold is reached, the skin will not allow further permeation. If we didn't have such mechanism, well, we would have died out millions of years ago, just by swimming in water. In fact a lot of companies install custom shower filters to prevent systemic absorption of many harmful chemicals, there are many people with alopecia areata that almost cure within weeks by just having a good shower filter.
2. water penetrate nothing..water evaporate quickliy and create the ilusion of penetration.
MWAahahahhahahaBwaananananGwahahahha, seriously, this is a chemist talking? Please for your own safety, don't let his guy mix anything for you in the future, I am dead serious
Skin permeability of water-soluble drugs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2630109
And guess what? Cetirizine is a drug with low molecular weight and insanely high solubility in water. This was the reason I told you not to mix it with anything.
3. water evaporate quickly ...10% pg in water, after 10 min the water is gone and you have 80% pg on the skin
Well No $hit Shirlock!! it evaporates becauses it goes into the skin, it goes in, not into thin air... take few drop of water and put it in a glass container and wait 10mn. Now take the same amount and drop in on a tiny area of your skin and wait 10mn. Report back with your findings.
Now about cetirizine and alcohol and your chemist. I don't make things up in forums, I am serious about what I research, 100% of the time when I post something I post a little abstract or few paragraphs and explain my findings, meaning, I read and try to understand the research, I don't merely spam forums with abstract and no explanations (which ticks me the f*ck off every time I see it happening). When I don't know something, I usually say things like, in my personal opinion, or broscience certified. There is a lot of things I have found about hair loss that I still don't get yet, therefore I don't mention them or post unexplained abstract just to show how big my brain is. The problem with forums is people will usually trust the dude with the most post count or the oldest registration date, but he might be the dumbest kid in town. That said:
Now here is a study from a patent about cetirizine and alcochol:
http://www.google.com/patents/EP2029132A2?cl=en
Tell your chemist that my computer science degrees trump his broscience phd, no offense, but his reply was at best retarded and obviously he doesn't know what he is talking about, unsurprisingly in forums.
About Cox 1 and Cox 2, I will have an unrelated post, it is a complicated subject. The short version is that both Cox1 and Cox2 can produce PGE2 and PGD2. The difference is that COX 1 related prostaglandins are mainly used in normal functioning of cells. COX 2 prostaglandins are released when things go bad, as a results of cytokines, mitogens, etc.. in inflammatory cells.
princessRambo and squeegee thank you both for all this great info. I have done my research for a fibrotic skin for a long long time, and i think i know what causing this at bald scalps. Anyway, i am not yet ready to post my study about it, but i will in the future.
Sometimes i wonder why no one of all those hair transplant doctor's never mentioned at this huge problem which eliminate any chance for regrowth.
Maybe they don't go so deep for see this, or maybe they don't want to see this.
Anyway, i think DR is the way to go for breaking fibrosis, as maybe some topical enzymes. (bromelain , papain etc) plus Detumescence Therapy.
Sometimes i wonder why no one of all those hair transplant doctor's never mentioned at this huge problem which eliminate any chance for regrowth.
Maybe they don't go so deep for see this, or maybe they don't want to see this.
Anyway, i think DR is the way to go for breaking fibrosis, as maybe some topical enzymes. (bromelain , papain etc) plus Detumescence Therapy.
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Yeah, about the waiting stuff I said way earlier in the thread that a week was too short the way many people were stabbing their head. I still feel like many people should just follow the derma roller trial and do light wounding (no blood), wait one week and then repeat. If you don't have a fgf9 or at least pge2, having minoxidil indirectly inducing fgf9 is a long shot. At least you will have enough growth factors weekly to help existing follicle, probably the way the massaging theory works. Cots is telling us in the video below to not go all cheese grater on your shiny heads unless we have fgf9, lucky bastard with a full head of almost negative norwood:
[video=youtube;gaLaMBHIdBs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaLaMBHIdBs[/video]
Also the unpigmented white hair they are discussing in the mouse wound, hellouser reported a long unpigmented terminal looking hair, wonder if anybody is seeing this.
about my topicals: you already know one of them
In fact the japanese study on 2% keto vs 2% minoxidil used a cream that stayed on all night.
I also use topical EGCG + resveratrol (tried topical curcumin but the yellow stain is unbearable). I also have different mixtures combining capsaicin with EGCG and resveratrol as a leave in topical, but it is not a high concentration of cap, otherwise, leaving it in burns like a mofo. I have now included minoxidil 4 times a day to my daily regiment since I started the wounding thing.
Again some people will say that will stop your heart, I say, broscience, in fact there is study that tried application of minoxidil 2 4 6 and 8 times a day and they didn't find any more systemic increase from 8 times to 2 times, the authors concluded that the initial application saturates the scalp enough to prevent further systemic absorption. So if you are not sensitive to a single dose of topical minoxidil's system effect, you will like not feel anything different applying 8 times a day.
Now does that work better? The study didn't investigate the efficacy, but only the systemic absorption. Lots of people concluded from that study that 2 times is as much efficient as 8 times, but that again is broscience because 4h is maximum absorption time of minoxidil, so it stands to reason that if you space them out by 4h, you are likely benefiting the hair follicles (I tend to go off topic sometimes). Sorry for the typos, typing on my cellphone while trying to catch up on Homeland
Reason I love curcumin so much, well, I am telling you guys, that little molecule is magical. At least I might live longer:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/may/01/scientists-ageing-process
What is the most potent inhibitor of NF Kb? Curcumin, even more so when combined with resveratrol. It seems NF KB pops its ugly head in almost all known inflammatory diseases.
Interesting video -they were originally looking at wound healing when suddenly those mice started growing hair. Those compounds must have something to do with wound healing since that was the original aim of the study... Which compounds are important in wound healing or speeding wound healing?! (just thinking out loud here)
That BBQ guy burnt himself so bad that he must have induced a lot of these "compounds" for wound healing...
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Sparky4444
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Dr. Wesley's scarless FUE technique, supposedly, addresses this....we'll see...he's presenting at the Hair Transplant convention in San Francisco at the end of the month..the keynote speaker, I guess...even Rahal knows about this scarless FUE buzz and will be attending the conference...
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We need this.....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23727932
Somebody had mentioned this earlier - did anyone go through with it?
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Check out the scalp thickness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjL1YXXGlDA
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23727932
Somebody had mentioned this earlier - did anyone go through with it?
- - - Updated - - -
Check out the scalp thickness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjL1YXXGlDA
Kirby
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Had my first rollin' session this evening. Man, it was painful at times. Wasn't too bad to start with, but became excruciating towards the end, as the roller hit the temples/hairline. Got my girlfriend to do all the rolling, to ensure a thorough wounding. Took 45 minutes in total. Will do the next 11 Thursday evenings and see from there. Starting this is the most difficult step...
cthulhu2.0
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can someone besides princessRambo please post pictures. I have been doing the treatment since the beginning of August and although I am getting okay results, I am expecting more in terms of regrowth. Btw I am using a 1.5mm, switched from 1.0mm beginning of sept
uncomfortable man
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You know I heard getting whipped repeatedly across the back can grow hair on your head. Who's gonna be first?
good find! Thanks for posting that link.
While 'curcumin' is in the air here, I'll mention that I've got a paper somewhere on disk here that shows that the oral bioavailability of curcumin can be multiplied by 1200% simply by....boiling it. Yup!..lol..just boil it for some number of minutes (I think maybe 20 or 30).
closetmetrosexual
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squeegee
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Microneedling increases type I collagen when used alone which we do not want. Tgfbeta 1 & 2 are our enemies, they increase collagen. Tgfb-3 inhibits 1 & 2 which reduces the collagen. I would be interested to see a study on levels of fibrosis in bald scalp tissue, curious to see if increased collagen in recently balding samples compared to long term balding.
Closet, last night I was looking at a video of a massager that someone posted about a day or two ago. I couldn't be -certain- from the video, but it sure looked like it rotated...i.e., it spun.....not just vibratory.
I can't see how that'd be practical or desirable. I mean, it's gonna rip out all our remaining hair!..lol.
Maybe I misinterpreted the video....maybe it doesn't spin at all.
Anyway, you might want to check that one that you linked to....see if it just rocks/vibrates....or if it spins too.
I'm thinking of just using that somewhat silly Mag-gro roller. Don't know that the magical magnets are worth squat...but the look of the 'pins' on the roller....and imagining how they'll flex the skin deeply...that seems right to me. I'm hypothesizing that smaller 'bumps' or 'pins' which put the pressure into smaller areas will deform the skin more deeply...and that seems like a good thing to me.
And I don't expect something like the Mag-gro to rip hair out.
By the way, I just saw an abstract today about skin-prep for transdermal drug delivery. They said that using a BRUSH made a huge difference in absorption. Paper wasn't available, but abstract implied that it's disturbing the corneum, the top layer, in a way that allows drugs/solutions to penetrate 10x better. They DID use a rotating brush...at 80rpm....but it seemed like they were doing only bare skin....since the point of their study was simply drug-delivery. I.e., anywhere on the body works fine for that purpose, so of course they'd use bare skin, not hair-zone.
But it got me thinking about NON-rotating brushes we could use on the scalp....and for me, with small bald-spots in the frontal pattern, hell..a TOOTHBRUSH oughta work!...lol. By the way, the graph in the abstract showed lines for 10, 30, 60 seconds...and 60sec looked more than twice as effective as 30, for what that's worth.
Note; on DR days, that's likely enough to get all the absorption we need....but I'm thinking of the brushing for those other 29 days in between the DR sessions.....for daily topicals...or thrice-daily topicals....10-30sec of brushing before application each time....doesn't sound like any extra hassle really. fwiw....
I can't see how that'd be practical or desirable. I mean, it's gonna rip out all our remaining hair!..lol.
Maybe I misinterpreted the video....maybe it doesn't spin at all.
Anyway, you might want to check that one that you linked to....see if it just rocks/vibrates....or if it spins too.
I'm thinking of just using that somewhat silly Mag-gro roller. Don't know that the magical magnets are worth squat...but the look of the 'pins' on the roller....and imagining how they'll flex the skin deeply...that seems right to me. I'm hypothesizing that smaller 'bumps' or 'pins' which put the pressure into smaller areas will deform the skin more deeply...and that seems like a good thing to me.
And I don't expect something like the Mag-gro to rip hair out.
By the way, I just saw an abstract today about skin-prep for transdermal drug delivery. They said that using a BRUSH made a huge difference in absorption. Paper wasn't available, but abstract implied that it's disturbing the corneum, the top layer, in a way that allows drugs/solutions to penetrate 10x better. They DID use a rotating brush...at 80rpm....but it seemed like they were doing only bare skin....since the point of their study was simply drug-delivery. I.e., anywhere on the body works fine for that purpose, so of course they'd use bare skin, not hair-zone.
But it got me thinking about NON-rotating brushes we could use on the scalp....and for me, with small bald-spots in the frontal pattern, hell..a TOOTHBRUSH oughta work!...lol. By the way, the graph in the abstract showed lines for 10, 30, 60 seconds...and 60sec looked more than twice as effective as 30, for what that's worth.
Note; on DR days, that's likely enough to get all the absorption we need....but I'm thinking of the brushing for those other 29 days in between the DR sessions.....for daily topicals...or thrice-daily topicals....10-30sec of brushing before application each time....doesn't sound like any extra hassle really. fwiw....
princessRambo
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selfaware said:
I have talked about this in this thread and mentioned studies showing that simply brushing vigorously with a rotating bristle brush for 10 seconds was equivalent to 10mn of iontophoresis. You probably started reading this thread after I threw my rage-quit tantrum
.Transdermal Drug Delivery Systems: Skin Perturbation Devices
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0939641107002111
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18369965
It's sad people don't take this kind of stuff seriously though, even though it's backed by carefully, very well design research. I mean it only takes like 10 seconds to go crazy mad brushing your scalp and apply your topical to increase absorption possibly 100 times more. People like the exotic, rare stuff, made from a dark corner of the world in an obscure lab, stuff like cb, oc, ru, scalp med or whatever the hell these things are called, stuff that the shady dark lab selling these products probably have zillions of shills polluting the forums disguised as so called knowledgeable people with 1 trillion post count and what not, when something as simple as vigorously brushing can make your existing cheap topical act like they are on steroids. But it is too easy I guess, we want the complicated stuff. </Rant off>... hi :wave::wave:
"I am not bald okay? I shaved my head. Do you unressstannnn?"
[video=youtube;rIr6rEndy0A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIr6rEndy0A[/video]
cthulhu2.0
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