Oral Steroid Made My Hair Grow Back Thicker!

[JaneyElizabeth]

I think this purely comes down to enzymatic expression of 5a-reductase. I think it's easily possible to highly express 5a-reductase in facial skin while simultaneously expressing enough aromatase expression to support normal growth of facial hair. I think the problem in the balding scalp is due to the fact that there is a high expression of 5AR and very little expression of aromatase. I think it wouldn't be as big a deal if the aromatase expression were higher, but, since it's not, the follicle is starved of the genetic signaling caused by estrogenic activity. Aromatase and 5AR are in competition for substrate (which would be androgens) and when you suddenly cut off the 5AR pathway with an antagonist like finasteride, then the little aromatase enzyme that is present in the balding hair follicle no longer has to compete with 5AR for substrate and the follicle is able to produce sufficient levels of estrogens for normal hair growth. This is why I believe finasteride works. And then it doesn't work shortly thereafter because your body is most certainly going to react to cutting of an entire enzymatic pathway by reducing steroid synthesis, among a variety of other defensive actions it takes like reducing aromatase or estrogen receptor expression. And then that just makes the hair loss problem ultimately worse.

Yes, I agree with the bulk of this but remember, it has nothing to do with diet and incipient states of baldness.

Castration before the age of beard growth generally results in a life-time of child-quality hair. Those who pass that point and who are then castrated, need estrogen to make recoveries but some of them still can struggle with DHT synthesis, so where's it coming from and why is it so persistent? DHT all but refuses to take no for an answer while T plays nicely with others. Being hyper-masculine is almost certainly associated with baldness. But also don't forget. The issue is reaching hair parity with children and females. Many males like Son of Sam have vast amounts of scalp hair and they look like hell.... Much worse than balding men. Let me go get my stock SOS pic.

 

[ChemHead]

so no, extensive beard growth doesn't necessarily mandate baldness but it is highly correlated. The first thing that I noticed in my fraternity in college was that none of the guys with perfect hair could grow beards by 22. Most only had goatees and I realized right away that there is a hormonal connection.

Yes, there is definitely a connection and that is the propensity for men that can grow beards to have a very high expression of 5AR. The ones that are lucky and have a beautiful, thick head of hair as well as thick full beards likely have higher follicular aromatase expression and possibly lower 5AR expression. It would be nice to have data on this, though, that specifically compares bearded men with full heads of hair and bearded men that are balding. I would like to know if it's more significant that they have lower 5AR expression or higher aromatase expression. My guess would be that it's probably both, but at least having higher aromatase expression could prevent hair loss while maybe the hair shaft wouldn't be as thick.

I like to think of 5AR and aromatase as being on a slider switch, where 5AR expression is on left and aromatase on the right. With the slide moved all the way to the left, you have severely and aggressively balding individuals that have very high follicular 5AR expression and very low aromatase expression. As you move the slide to the center you have people that don't lose hair, but their hair isn't anything that people would be much impressed over. And then you have people on the right that have very low follicular 5AR expression and very high aromatase expression. Their hair shaft diameter is thick, their hair tends to be deep in color, and their hair cycle lasts much longer than the average person which allows them to grow very long hair.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

My theory is that whatever causes prolific but nasty hair, similar to mullets, is part of the same overall solution. Caucasian and Asian women virtually never have hair quality like this, which is atrocious and no more treatable than baldness is. You can try a conditioner but you can't improve the quality from the inside out. Far too many on here essentially never deal with the hair quality differences between women, boys and men but they are substantial and virtually always spotable. So for every boy who outright balds, there might be two more whose hair is substantially affected in a negative wife for life....

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

So theoretically, part of maintenance on RI's might not be increased hair counts at all but rather an overall increase in manageability and ability to be worn long. These aspects are why very few white men wear their hair long. It's because it looks like crap when they do even if they have relatively good coverage and no bald spot.

George Harrison had a great ability to wear his hair long into his premature death in his 50's but the hair quality is still noticeably inferior to his hair pre-1966. Many females even do not see a diminution in hair quality into their 80's and 90's.

 

[ChemHead]

And you are claiming hair regrowth from this? It certainly sounds healthy, no doubt, but the genes involved in baldness are manifold and turning any one of them "on or off" is probably not going to do anything for hair because hair loss is not reversible except for people using extremely large amounts of anti-androgens and female hormones. Neither food nor masturbation are likely causes for male pattern baldness and I recommend both of them as well as lots of alcohol and weed based upon most of the winos that I see in the gutter with full heads of hair....

I can't yet claim hair growth and I'll explain why shortly. I can, however, claim complete cessation of hair loss. A little over two years ago, I completely recovered from the damage that finasteride caused to my health and, as I was recovering, my hair was shedding like crazy... a whole lot more than usual. I figured that as I recovered and got closer to "pre-finasteride" state, that my hair would eventually begin to aggressively shed like it had before. And I was ok with that because the effects finasteride had on my body are about as bad as they get and I was miserable. However, a few weeks after I felt like I was basically recovered, my hair just suddenly stopped falling out. And when I say it stopped, I mean it completely stopped. I could scrub my scalp in the shower and not a single hair would come out, which is something that never happened except during the first few weeks of finasteride use.

Had I left it at that, I can honestly say that I think all or most of my hair would have regrown 2.5 years later. But I was stupid. I really wanted to see if I could get away with trying to use finasteride topically by microdosing and I put myself right back into the same situation I had finally freed myself from. I didn't even give it a month before I started fcking around with finasteride. My hair stopped falling out completely, but it was still very fine in diameter. My hair has always been extremely fine and finasteride had the ability to nearly double the size of my hair shaft and I wanted that. It was a foolish pipe dream, though, to think that I could get finasteride to work without causing systemic disruption of the 5AR pathway. I tried the microdosing and fcked my body up right back where it had been and my hair began to fall out again. And the reason why my hair began to fall out again is because finasteride will cause a lowering of aromatase expression, probably lowered estrogen receptor expression, and lowered steroid synthesis. 5AR expression is incredibly important for hypothalamic regulation of steroid synthesis and enzyme expression, as well as normal gonadal function. Interfering with these is only going to cause your body to produce insufficient amounts of steroids that are needed to be healthy.

 

[czecha]

I can't yet claim hair growth and I'll explain why shortly. I can, however, claim complete cessation of hair loss. A little over two years ago, I completely recovered from the damage that finasteride caused to my health and, as I was recovering, my hair was shedding like crazy... a whole lot more than usual. I figured that as I recovered and got closer to "pre-finasteride" state, that my hair would eventually begin to aggressively shed like it had before. And I was ok with that because the effects finasteride had on my body are about as bad as they get and I was miserable. However, a few weeks after I felt like I was basically recovered, my hair just suddenly stopped falling out. And when I say it stopped, I mean it completely stopped. I could scrub my scalp in the shower and not a single hair would come out, which is something that never happened except during the first few weeks of finasteride use.

Had I left it at that, I can honestly say that I think all or most of my hair would have regrown 2.5 years later. But I was stupid. I really wanted to see if I could get away with trying to use finasteride topically by microdosing and I put myself right back into the same situation I had finally freed myself from. I didn't even give it a month before I started fcking around with finasteride. My hair stopped falling out completely, but it was still very fine in diameter. My hair has always been extremely fine and finasteride had the ability to nearly double the size of my hair shaft and I wanted that. It was a foolish pipe dream, though, to think that I could get finasteride to work without causing systemic disruption of the 5AR pathway. I tried the microdosing and fcked my body up right back where it had been and my hair began to fall out again. And the reason why my hair began to fall out again is because finasteride will cause a lowering of aromatase expression, probably lowered estrogen receptor expression, and lowered steroid synthesis. 5AR expression is incredibly important for hypothalamic regulation of steroid synthesis and enzyme expression, as well as normal gonadal function. Interfering with these is only going to cause your body to produce insufficient amounts of steroids that are needed to be healthy.

Maybe you are keeping your hair bc you have pfs and downregulated 5ar still

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I can't yet claim hair growth and I'll explain why shortly. I can, however, claim complete cessation of hair loss. A little over two years ago, I completely recovered from the damage that finasteride caused to my health and, as I was recovering, my hair was shedding like crazy... a whole lot more than usual. I figured that as I recovered and got closer to "pre-finasteride" state, that my hair would eventually begin to aggressively shed like it had before. And I was ok with that because the effects finasteride had on my body are about as bad as they get and I was miserable. However, a few weeks after I felt like I was basically recovered, my hair just suddenly stopped falling out. And when I say it stopped, I mean it completely stopped. I could scrub my scalp in the shower and not a single hair would come out, which is something that never happened except during the first few weeks of finasteride use.

Had I left it at that, I can honestly say that I think all or most of my hair would have regrown 2.5 years later. But I was stupid. I really wanted to see if I could get away with trying to use finasteride topically by microdosing and I put myself right back into the same situation I had finally freed myself from. I didn't even give it a month before I started fcking around with finasteride. My hair stopped falling out completely, but it was still very fine in diameter. My hair has always been extremely fine and finasteride had the ability to nearly double the size of my hair shaft and I wanted that. It was a foolish pipe dream, though, to think that I could get finasteride to work without causing systemic disruption of the 5AR pathway. I tried the microdosing and fcked my body up right back where it had been and my hair began to fall out again. And the reason why my hair began to fall out again is because finasteride will cause a lowering of aromatase expression, probably lowered estrogen receptor expression, and lowered steroid synthesis. 5AR expression is incredibly important for hypothalamic regulation of steroid synthesis and enzyme expression, as well as normal gonadal function. Interfering with these is only going to cause your body to produce insufficient amounts of steroids that are needed to be healthy.

I understand and we all tend to reason from personal experience but none of that is necessarily replicable through testing so this is a type of important anecdotal data especially if others chime in with similar stories. But meds have to be tested on a double-blind basis and I don't think studies of your method are practicable. Baldness does in fact relent for many people, not in terms of reversal but in terms of just stopping say at 35 or whatever. Watching anchormen's hair over five decades seems indicative of that. Even Cary Grant had a permanent maturing hairline that just stayed the same. It's more common with people who largely only bald in the temples than in people with full-blown male pattern baldness.

Every single human being that I see is incorporated into my visual data set but although we see patterns quite often, they aren't dependable but balding only in the corners seems to often relent without further progression as per Sting who has great hair quality everywhere except the temples.

 

[ChemHead]

My theory is that whatever causes prolific but nasty hair, similar to mullets, is part of the same overall solution.

I think I've seen this picture before. I would say that what causes hair to look like this is probably both a high expression of 5AR with still a moderate expression of aromatase. So, he had enough aromatase expression to be sufficient to maintain a normal hair cycle, but the quality of the hair was horrible due to the high expression of 5AR.

In my experience, there is a huge difference between the physiological effects of DHT vs. testosterone. Having high testosterone and low DHT made my beard hair much thicker, darker, softer, and straighter. In the opposite scenario, where DHT is dominant, the hair is thinner, drier, stiffer (oddly enough), and kind of wiry or crinkly. However, because testosterone is an aromatase substrate, I can't be certain whether the difference is because the testosterone was metabolized to estradiol or because there really is a significant different in the genetic expression caused by DHT vs testosterone. I actually tend to think that both are true.

 

[ChemHead]

Maybe you are keeping your hair bc you have pfs and downregulated 5ar still

Definitely not. I'm losing hair right now... in fact, shedding quite a lot lately. After I got rid of pfs, my hair loss completely stopped when I expected it to return in its full aggressive glory. I was incredibly surprised when it did the opposite.

I won't be offended if you don't believe me. However, when I recover again from finasteride, I'll be able to give myself a real chance to see how things would have ended up. I really think that I can get my hair to grow back, but I'm not going to tell you that's what will happen until I actually get that to happen. I will confidently state that I got my hair loss to completely cease. Whether or not that will translate to regrowth, I cannot say because I never gave it a chance. What I also think is that if I do experience hair growth, I will not experience the hair shaft thickening like I did with finasteride (which is what made it so appealing to me). So, I think I will need to seek out ways to increase aromatase expression in the scalp if higher estrogenic activity is, in fact, responsible for thicker hair shaft. For now, I'm just focused on recovering from PFS again as quickly as possible.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I think I've seen this picture before. I would say that what causes hair to look like this is probably both a high expression of 5AR with still a moderate expression of aromatase. So, he had enough aromatase expression to be sufficient to maintain a normal hair cycle, but the quality of the hair was horrible due to the high expression of 5AR.

In my experience, there is a huge difference between the physiological effects of DHT vs. testosterone. Having high testosterone and low DHT made my beard hair much thicker, darker, softer, and straighter. In the opposite scenario, where DHT is dominant, the hair is thinner, drier, stiffer (oddly enough), and kind of wiry or crinkly. However, because testosterone is an aromatase substrate, I can't be certain whether the difference is because the testosterone was metabolized to estradiol or because there really is a significant different in the genetic expression caused by DHT vs testosterone. I actually tend to think that both are true.

The beard thing is true even for MtF's. A few cease growing facial hair but for most of us, it can actually make the hair as you said, thicker and softer. Sometimes when I apply estrogen, I can actually see the remnants dissolve into smudges that can be wiped off but the effect is variable.

 

[czecha]

My own hairloss halted for years after 3 months or so on finasteride with sides. And I didn’t even have pfs, at least not to an obvious extent

Definitely not. I'm losing hair right now... in fact, shedding quite a lot lately. After I got rid of pfs, my hair loss completely stopped when I expected it to return in its full aggressive glory. I was incredibly surprised when it did the opposite.

I won't be offended if you don't believe me. However, when I recover again from finasteride, I'll be able to give myself a real chance to see how things would have ended up. I really think that I can get my hair to grow back, but I'm not going to tell you that's what will happen until I actually get that to happen. I will confidently state that I got my hair loss to completely cease. Whether or not that will translate to regrowth, I cannot say because I never gave it a chance. What I also think is that if I do experience hair growth, I will not experience the hair shaft thickening like I did with finasteride (which is what made it so appealing to me). So, I think I will need to seek out ways to increase aromatase expression in the scalp if higher estrogenic activity is, in fact, responsible for thicker hair shaft. For now, I'm just focused on recovering from PFS again as quickly as possible.

anything that comes to mind for higher aromatase in scalp without wrecking your body?
Phytoestrogens? Red clover etc?

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

My own hairloss halted for years after 3 months or so on finasteride with sides. And I didn’t even have pfs, at least not to an obvious extent

anything that comes to mind for higher aromatase in scalp without wrecking your body?
Phytoestrogens? Red clover etc?

I was going to say that it doesn't appear that manipulating aromatase levels is much of a thing. It seems as though it should be beneficial if the effect isn't just regulated away.

 

[ChemHead]

My own hairloss halted for years after 3 months or so on finasteride with sides. And I didn’t even have pfs, at least not to an obvious extent

anything that comes to mind for higher aromatase in scalp without wrecking your body?
Phytoestrogens? Red clover etc?

things that are PG2 receptor agonists. So, PGE2 itself and ricinoleic acid from castor oil both work. I'm sure there are plenty more and this is something I'd like to research and experiment more after I recover from finasteride.

 

[ChemHead]

My own hairloss halted for years after 3 months or so on finasteride with sides. And I didn’t even have pfs, at least not to an obvious extent

I think the fact that you didn't experience PFS definitely has something to do with the fact that your hair loss halted and stayed that way. The reason why I lose hair on finasteride after a short time it because is causes lowered overall steroid synthesis and lowered enzymatic and receptor expressions. My guess is that, for me, 5AR is critical to attenuation of excess estrogenic activity in the brain and sexual tissues. In fact, when I recovered from finasteride, I could tell that I had an increase not just in androgenic qualities from 5AR metabolism of testosterone, but my estrogenic activity increased as well. And this makes sense because higher androgen receptor activity will cause an upregulation of aromatase. I believe this is why my hair loss stopped. I got my body to upregulate aromatase expression and even though my hair shaft diameter wasn't thick, I was able to get my hair to stop falling out. I can work with that.. I can live with a head of fine hair while figuring out what I can do to make it thicker.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

things that are PG2 receptor agonists. So, PGE2 itself and ricinoleic acid from castor oil both work. I'm sure there are plenty more and this is something I'd like to research and experiment more after I recover from finasteride.

I am ingesting castor oil in ever fewer amounts because of the ahem diarrhea which I have had pretty much once a week the past couple of months. Of course when people have multiple meds and treatments going on, it is difficult to distinguish what is working and what is not. That's another reason for double-blind testing to remove such factors.

One reason why I often print the various @bridgeburn protocols is because we know that they at least worked for somebody at those levels jointly. Once we all start doing our own things and altering protocols, it's hard to make predictions about what works. I started all of this in my 50's so I have shown at least with my protocol and approximate levels of E2, that I made a substantial hair recovery. I document this with pictures going back almost six years and going back about nine months on my own thread and they are taken in a variety of lighting and poses, etc.

Self-assertions of "results" usually aren't particularly scientific since they are not tested but at least by posting pics over a long period of time as per @bridgeburn, we can see progressive results that make any unusual or solitary result unlikely since Bridge started off all but completely bald, as did I and we both posted our bald heads (and it is never easy to do this. My best area is the crown which used to be my worst and I rarely photograph the crown for that reason. But at some point, anyone on here can allege anything and then say, sorry no pics and that makes the data point of dubious worth unfortunately. I have seen very few substantial recoveries by anyone over say 22 years old without using HRT but we weren't (aren't?) completely sure until recently that full recoveries from horse shoe status might even be possible and that includes neither @bridgeburn nor me since we both still had at least some hair growing up top. My NW7 status is partly due to Telogen Effluvium unlike his. I have seen horse shoes make maybe 70 percent recoveries but that's not good enough for passing as female. Only now am I approximating the feminizing effects of my wig which I actually have grown to adore since it sort of embodies my personality as Janey. Yep, Hair, even wigs dig that deeply into who we are.

Goddess bless as always.

 

[czecha]

I think the fact that you didn't experience PFS definitely has something to do with the fact that your hair loss halted and stayed that way. The reason why I lose hair on finasteride after a short time it because is causes lowered overall steroid synthesis and lowered enzymatic and receptor expressions. My guess is that, for me, 5AR is critical to attenuation of excess estrogenic activity in the brain and sexual tissues. In fact, when I recovered from finasteride, I could tell that I had an increase not just in androgenic qualities from 5AR metabolism of testosterone, but my estrogenic activity increased as well. And this makes sense because higher androgen receptor activity will cause an upregulation of aromatase. I believe this is why my hair loss stopped. I got my body to upregulate aromatase expression and even though my hair shaft diameter wasn't thick, I was able to get my hair to stop falling out. I can work with that.. I can live with a head of fine hair while figuring out what I can do to make it thicker.

So someone who doesn’t have pfs you would still recommend your diet for hormone optimization + immediately pge2/castor oil to reverse baldness?

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

So someone who doesn’t have pfs you would still recommend your diet for hormone optimization + immediately pge2/castor oil to reverse baldness?

People seem to assume that changes in diet even to healthier ones are going to be correlated with an improvement in hair. We have no data to my knowledge that supports that meaning you might be just as likely to make things worse by changing your diet than better. I would adopt a diet for health without much regard to baldness but lowering fat for example has been alleged both to be beneficial by some, and harmful for hair by others when the truth is that it doesn't matter.

 

[Charger]

Definitely not. I'm losing hair right now... in fact, shedding quite a lot lately. After I got rid of pfs, my hair loss completely stopped when I expected it to return in its full aggressive glory. I was incredibly surprised when it did the opposite.

I won't be offended if you don't believe me. However, when I recover again from finasteride

Do you have before/after bloodwork to look at? I'm willing to bet when you "got rid of PFS" and your shedding noticeably slowed, your hormones were not back to baseline. SHBG/Progesterone levels were probably still elevated compared to where they were beforehand.

things that are PG2 receptor agonists. So, PGE2 itself and ricinoleic acid from castor oil both work. I'm sure there are plenty more and this is something I'd like to research and experiment more after I recover from finasteride.

I've used PGE2, it will increase systemic aromatase if it gets into the blood, whether or not this is a problem depends on the individual.

 

[czecha]

People seem to assume that changes in diet even to healthier ones are going to be correlated with an improvement in hair. We have no data to my knowledge that supports that meaning you might be just as likely to make things worse by changing your diet than better. I would adopt a diet for health without much regard to baldness but lowering fat for example has been alleged to be beneficial and harmful for hair when the truth is that it doesn't matter.

I’m already on his diet for 2 months
Thicker beard, deeper voice and a handful of hair that I don’t recall, but that might be placebo. Probably higher t lower dht. Anyways, diet is definitely not cope when it comes to hormones
And no one studied a diet in which you just eat leafy greens and raw veg, right? Vegan diet = veggies cooked in processed oils etc

there is also a connection of gut inflammation and excess dht

 

[ChemHead]

@czecha

Here is a good publication about PGE2 and aromatase regulation. They conclude that PGE2 is the most potent positive regulator of aromatase expression, but others the tested against include dexamethasone and tetradecanoyl phorbol acetate (TPA).

Prostaglandin E2 Regulates Aromatase Activity and Expression in Human Adipose Stromal Cells via Two Distinct Receptor Subtypes

The aromatase enzyme complex, located primarily in the stromal cells of breast tumors, catalyzes estrogen biosynthesis and is fundamental to hormone-dependent g

academic.oup.com