Revivogen

[KEVING]

I am currently on finasteride and nizoral still have 75% of my hair but can totally see where im going bald especially when wet. I think i should try something else so im going to try spironolactone and Revivogen.

First of all, is this the best treatment and second what revivogen products should i buy??

Help much appreciated

 

[viperfish]

Give propecia and nizoral 1 year before adding in anything else. Those are the best two treatments for hairloss.

For revivogen you just need the topical.

 

[Guest]

I totally disagree!

It´s important to add as much as possible as fast as possible and then you can always discontinue use of the topicals.

 

[HairlossTalk]

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong...

Where on earth did you come up with that?

You cannot discontinue use of topicals that you start and rely on.

And the *last* thing you want to do is do the kitchen sink approach all up front.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong...

Where on earth did you come up with that?

You cannot discontinue use of topicals that you start and rely on.

And the *last* thing you want to do is do the kitchen sink approach all up front.

HairLossTalk.com

Explain to me why you can´t discontinue a topical like spironolactone or revivogen? It´s not a topical that promotes growth but instead it stops DHT or the ezym.

 

[BadHairDecade]

I agree with HairLossTalk.com big time on this one.

Honestly I think if you have to add something, add minoxidil only. Then give it a year.
However, if your hell bent on 2% spironolactone I have three unused bottles I'll sell you for $40 shipped. I don't use it anymore.

BHD

 

[viperfish]

BHD,
Why don't you use spironolactone anymore?? I know I had to quit using it also due to irritation. It just did not work for you??

 

[Guest]

I agree with HairLossTalk.com too on this issue, it´s just that he´s missing my point.

My point is: You can use spironolactone/revivogen on and off. When you are ON you will block DHT or the enzym 5ar or whatever it´s called when you are off you are not blocking anything. You are not making your follicles dependent like you are when you are using minoxidil. I´m NEVER implying that one round of Revivogen / spironolactone will permanently block DHT/enzym but for someone who is totally new to this and hasn´t begun using finasteride it´s a really good idea to start of at once with topicals and finasteride and once the topicals are out it´s up to the person to decide if he wants to continue.

 

[Yardbird]

From my experience and what I've read on this forum, getting on and off of treatments, topicals or otherwise, is a great way to try your hand at major shedding.
Most people who dance around with various treatments, never being consistent with any of them, end up complaining that their hair is worse off or that all hairloss treatments suck, or it's time to get a transplant, etc.
Treatments take commitment to work. Topicals are no exception.

 

[HairlossTalk]

My point is: You can use spironolactone/revivogen on and off. When you are ON you will block DHT or the enzym 5ar or whatever it´s called when you are off you are not blocking anything. You are not making your follicles dependent like you are when you are using minoxidil. I´m NEVER implying that one round of Revivogen / spironolactone will permanently block DHT/enzym but for someone who is totally new to this and hasn´t begun using finasteride it´s a really good idea to start of at once with topicals and finasteride and once the topicals are out it´s up to the person to decide if he wants to continue.

I hear your point, and I understand your logic.

The premise here is whether there is such a thing as "DHT Inhibition Dependency". You say there is not. I say there is.

Technically your argument could be used with minoxidil too. While you're using it, you stimulate hair growth. While you're not using it, you're not stimulating growth.

The problem with this argument is the same if it were to be used with DHT inhibitors.

Hairs free'd up to grow because of DHT inhibition will continue to be free'd up to grow unobstructed by DHT as long as you're using those DHT inhibitors. Those hairs are reliant upon that DHT inhibition to continue to be free to grow. Just like hairs reliant upon minoxidil need minoxidil to continue to be stimulated into growth.

Why do you feel that the DHT inhibition does not introduce dependence?

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

My point is: You can use spironolactone/revivogen on and off. When you are ON you will block DHT or the enzym 5ar or whatever it´s called when you are off you are not blocking anything. You are not making your follicles dependent like you are when you are using minoxidil. I´m NEVER implying that one round of Revivogen / spironolactone will permanently block DHT/enzym but for someone who is totally new to this and hasn´t begun using finasteride it´s a really good idea to start of at once with topicals and finasteride and once the topicals are out it´s up to the person to decide if he wants to continue.

I hear your point, and I understand your logic.

The premise here is whether there is such a thing as "DHT Inhibition Dependency". You say there is not. I say there is.

Technically your argument could be used with minoxidil too. While you're using it, you stimulate hair growth. While you're not using it, you're not stimulating growth.

The problem with this argument is the same if it were to be used with DHT inhibitors.

Hairs free'd up to grow because of DHT inhibition will continue to be free'd up to grow unobstructed by DHT as long as you're using those DHT inhibitors. Those hairs are reliant upon that DHT inhibition to continue to be free to grow. Just like hairs reliant upon minoxidil need minoxidil to continue to be stimulated into growth.

Why do you feel that the DHT inhibition does not introduce dependence?

HairLossTalk.com

I wouldn´t compare the mechanism of spironolactone/revivogen vs minoxidil. As I understood it minoxidil does something to the follicles (possibly phosforylation of Ca2+ channels) that induces influx of ions into the follicles (again probably Ca2+) and they in turn activate an intracellular pathway which leads to build up hair. Once you stop using minoxidil those Channels are no longer open, the ion influx stops and the hair stops growing.

As I understood it Revivogen is a temporary inhibitor of DHT binding (or was that spironolactone) to the follicle and the other inhibits the enzym converting testosterone to DHT. Since this process is dynamic and the enzyms / hormones are always released you have to block them all the time - this is a sort of dependence - YES. But what you are doing is infact letting the follicle rest before the next attack of DHT.

So yes, your logic is correct there is a dependence but not created by the substance but rather from the fact that you want to protect your hair. With minoxidil you start growing hair in an unnatural way and once you take away that unnatural stimulation the hair falls out.

This really doesn´t matter. Testosterone will be pumped out until you reach a certain age and that is how long you will have to add topicals until they find a way to permanently clog up your DHT follicles (or have a topical that you only apply once.

I´m really curious as to how long a DHT inhibits DHT - is it minutes? hours? and even more curious how long spironolactone stays in the local area - minutes? what is the halflife of spironolactone?

 

[BadHairDecade]

BHD,
Why don't you use spironolactone anymore?? I know I had to quit using it also due to irritation. It just did not work for you??

I had to stop using it because of inflamation. It actually started to make my scalp and hair really dry. Even my hair quality took a dump when I used it. My guess it was all the alcohol since I was also using minoxidil. So I dropped the spironolactone and in a few weeks my hair quality went up and my inflamation disappeared.
I was hoping that it would seemlessly replace finasteride since I had to lower the dose a while back due to gyno. Nope not for me. But I didn't use it for that long either. It's possible that it enduced a shed but I can't say that for sure since I did lower my finasteride dose down to .25mg when I was using it. This is also why I think that all DHT inhibitors don't work the same way and do create a dependancy. But there were a lot of factors involved so it's not a definite.

 

[HairlossTalk]

I wouldn´t compare the mechanism of spironolactone/revivogen vs minoxidil.

I didn't compare the mechanisms at all. I said they both "do something" and what they do can only be continued if they're present.

But what you are doing is infact letting the follicle rest before the next attack of DHT.

Exactly. And that next attack will come if you don't reintroduce Revivogen or spironolactone. Therefore they are dependant upon it to continue growing, unobsructed.

there is a dependence ... from the fact that you want to protect your hair.

Huh? The dependence is because of the presence of the substance, and the effect it has on the scalp environment. Just like with Minoxidil.

With minoxidil you start growing hair in an unnatural way and once you take away that unnatural stimulation the hair falls out.

Exactly. Substance stimulates growth. Without it, growth is not maintained. DHT inhibitor inhibits affliction on follicles. Without it, affliction returns, and hairs continue to miniaturize. Same exact cause - effect relationship, even though they are two completely different products and mechanisms.

I´m really curious as to how long a DHT inhibits DHT - is it minutes? hours? and even more curious how long spironolactone stays in the local area - minutes? what is the halflife of spironolactone?

My understanding is that spironolactone showed roughly a 12 hour effectiveness when applied topically, in studies. Thus the twice per day application suggestion.

Ive read your post thoroughly and still do not see where you have established that hair can continue to grow unobstructed in the absence of DHT inhibitors ... after having used them... and stopped.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

I wouldn´t compare the mechanism of spironolactone/revivogen vs minoxidil.

I didn't compare the mechanisms at all. I said they both "do something" and what they do can only be continued if they're present.

But what you are doing is infact letting the follicle rest before the next attack of DHT.

Exactly. And that next attack will come if you don't reintroduce Revivogen or spironolactone. Therefore they are dependant upon it to continue growing, unobsructed.

there is a dependence ... from the fact that you want to protect your hair.

Huh? The dependence is because of the presence of the substance, and the effect it has on the scalp environment. Just like with Minoxidil.

With minoxidil you start growing hair in an unnatural way and once you take away that unnatural stimulation the hair falls out.

Exactly. Substance stimulates growth. Without it, growth is not maintained. DHT inhibitor inhibits affliction on follicles. Without it, affliction returns, and hairs continue to miniaturize. Same exact cause - effect relationship, even though they are two completely different products and mechanisms.

I´m really curious as to how long a DHT inhibits DHT - is it minutes? hours? and even more curious how long spironolactone stays in the local area - minutes? what is the halflife of spironolactone?

My understanding is that spironolactone showed roughly a 12 hour effectiveness when applied topically, in studies. Thus the twice per day application suggestion.

Ive read your post thoroughly and still do not see where you have established that hair can continue to grow unobstructed in the absence of DHT inhibitors ... after having used them... and stopped.

HairLossTalk.com

Man you are not paying attention.

1) Do we agree on the fact that minoxidil is used to regrow hair while topical anti DHT (I´m putting all of the together no matter how they work) are used to stop DHT from attacking? <---- the question mark is for everything listed under 1).

If we agree then let´s move on.

2) No matter what you put on your head you will have testosterone in your system <------ do we agree on this?

If yes then let´s move on.

3) Testosterone is transformed into DHT <------- Agreed?

4) Certain people have either more DHT receptors in their follicles or they have more of the enzym that converts testosterone into DHT or they are just more sensitive to whatever DHT does in the scalp <----- Agreed?

If yes then let´s move on.

5) By blocking DHT or the enzym with a topical you remove whatever mechanism that is killing your follicle. Revivogen inihibits binding while spironolactone inhibits the enzyme or vice versa. So during the the periods when you use a topical you will give your follicles a chance to recover <---- just like the body recovers from most inflammations where there is no pus involved. Is there anything under 5). that you disagree on?

If Yes then let´s go to 6).

6) minoxidil when introduced probably opens Ca2+ channels, letting the IONS in and thus promoting growth. Without minoxidil the channels are closed and there is no growth. If you have been using minoxidil for say 1 year or so then it´s quite possible that you have grown a semistrong hair and this because parts of the follicle was still alive. If you discontinue use of minoxidil then the Ca2+ channels will close and the hair won´t be sustained for more then say 6months (I´m probably overshooting).

Do we agree?

Closing argument.

As you can see. There is a choice situation. With topicals that inhibit DHT or the enzyme you let your follicles rest and hair can eventually start growing again. If you discontinue use you will still have regenerated the follicle but DHT will once again attack it and your hair will fall out. However it´s wrong to say that the hair is dependent on topical anti DHT, the hair depends on not being attacked byt DHT.

If you are a new user and your regime is ZILCH. Then it´s a good idea to start of with a combo of nizoral and topcial anti DHT along with finasteride. The topicals can be discontinued while you keep poping finasteride. You will inhibit less DHT but since alot of your inflammation is controlled with nizoral and since inflammation in it self is regenerative it´s of outmost importance to stop it as hard and fast as possible.

minoxidil on other hand is totally different.

Bottom line is - No there is no dependence when it comes to topcials like spironolactone and revivogen. Everytime you use them you will give your follicles a helping hand but they won´t be dependent. However they will always be dependent on as little DHT in the scalp as possible but how does that differ from when you are not using a topical?

 

[mvpsoft]

And the *last* thing you want to do is do the kitchen sink approach all up front.

I think it depends on how old you are, how long you have been losing hair, and how far along your hair loss is. If you catch it early and you're young, I agree with you. If you don't start treatment until you're already a Norwood 3 or greater, and you're in your late 40's, you don't really have that luxury.

 

[BadHairDecade]

lets use one hair follicle for example. The problem is who's to say that spironolactone, revivogen or finasteride will work on that given follicle. We know each product doesn't work on everybody.
They all work in different ways to inhibit DHT (that's assuming that spironolactone and revivogen actually are capable of doing this on the human scalp). So who's to say that the hair follicle that spironolactone is working on is going to respond to the way revivogen works or finasteride works. This is why some people claim that spironolactone didn't work but Revivogen did and vice versa. Now you have a dependancy.

 

[Guest]

lets use one hair follicle for example. The problem is who's to say that spironolactone, revivogen or finasteride will work on that given follicle. We know each product doesn't work on everybody.
They all work in different ways to inhibit DHT (that's assuming that spironolactone and revivogen actually are capable of doing this on the human scalp). So who's to say that the hair follicle that spironolactone is working on is going to respond to the way revivogen works or finasteride works. This is why some people claim that spironolactone didn't work but Revivogen did and vice versa. Now you have a dependancy.

Ok and what if you didn´t use spironolactone/revivogen? then the follicle would die - right? Do you get my point?

Ok: Imagine you have a ice-cube on your kitchen sink. It will melt. You put it in the freezer and it regenerates but if you take it out it will melt again - still the period of time it was in the freezer it didn´t melt. This is what a topcial will do for your follicle, without a topical you are ice on a kitchen sink.

minoxidil will grow grass on the ice-cube on the kitchen sink. The ice-cube will still mealt but now you have grass growing on it. The grass however is dependent on minoxidil.

So if you are on topicals for 6months then you have regenerated your ice-cube.

 

[HairlossTalk]

Your entire post had absolutely nothing to do with the single question I posed to you... until the very end. So i will reply to that.

it´s wrong to say that the hair is dependent on topical anti DHT, the hair depends on not being attacked byt DHT.

Thats your argument??????????????? You are playing a game of semantics and nothing more. You know exactly what I and everyone else is saying here, and you know its right because you just acknowledged it in your post:

1. You use something that stops the degradation process of DHT
2. The hair benefits
3. The hair continues to "BENEFIT" as long as you use it
4. You take away that DHT inhibitor
5. The hair suffers

That is called DEPENDENCE.

Maybe our entire problem here is your understanding of the definition of dependence.

You just acknowledged that the hair will suffer without the DHT inhibitor but you say that doesnt equate to dependence.

Not only is the phrasing irrelevant, its wrong.

Why ? Because the result is the same. The hair WILL SUFFER in the absence of the DHT inhibitor. Therefore you MUST CONTINUE to use it in order for the hair not to suffer. You cannot STOP using the treatment if you want to maintain gains you've made on it. I have never seen someone nitpick an irrelevant point so much in my life.

Bottom line is - No there is no dependence when it comes to topcials like spironolactone and revivogen. Everytime you use them you will give your follicles a helping hand but they won´t be dependent. However they will always be dependent on as little DHT in the scalp as possible but how does that differ from when you are not using a topical?

Yeah the problem here is that you don't know what dependence means. Or you've created your own definition.

Any treatment which benefits, reverses, or stops the process of hair loss MUST BE CONTINUED in order to continue seeing benefit, reversal, or stopped hair loss. Period. This is a solid scientific fact that cannot be argued with.

Just for kicks and giggles I looked up the definition of "Dependence". Ironic what Definition # 1 says:

"The state of being dependent, as for support."

As for ....... what? Support? Sounds to me like something that RELIES on something for support, like a follicle relying on a DHT inhibitor for support of its growth processes ... is dependent.

Definition # 2:

"Trust; reliance"

Again, ironically descriptive of a Follicle benefitting from a DHT inhibitor isn't it? Again, dependence. You imply that the need to be ACTING in some fashion implies dependence. The very definition of dependence shows a passive relationship, just like a hair being free to grow in the absence of DHT.

Definition # 3:

"The state of being determined, influenced, or controlled by something else"

Finally, way down the list you see something more reminiscent of Minoxidil and the follicle. An action mode. Controll. Influence. Growth stimulation. Both ways are still considered "Dependence" however. Passive or agressive.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

You just want to have the last word. Fine I don´t care I´m right, you know it.

 

[HairlossTalk]

Thats the best response you can come up with? I was hoping for an intelligent discussion. I presented my views of the term dependence. All you have to say is "Im right and you know it" ?

HairLossTalk.com