Revivogen

[Guest]

Do you think Losec has a permanent effect?

Bryan

That wasn´t my question. My question is do you think that Losec causes dependency or not? Simplification - if you have a temporary reflux or a "burning sensation of the stomach" could you pop Losec for two weeks to ease it or does Losec cause dependency?

I´m asking this because I want to know how you define dependency.

 

[Bryan]

Ok, I'll answer as directly and simply as possible, without knowing very much about that particular drug:

Yes, you could use it for two weeks to ease the burning sensation.

If the condition is chronic, then you would be dependent on the Losec (or a similar treatment), as far as I know.

My definition of "dependency" in this particular context is pretty simple, and has to do with the following very simple concept: do you have to continue taking a medication for a certain chronic medical condition, or does the medication have a permanent effect? In other words, is it a permanent cure for the condition?

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Using Losec will upregulate the mucosa by up to 30% giving you that much more HCl production once you get of the drug - this is my definition of dependency. Or what cocaine does to your NE.

If you have headaches then you can take aspirin without it causing dependency - sure you will have a headache again (if there is such a thing as chronic headache) once you get off it but that´s your own choice not because a structure was changed.

Exposing your body to damage will cause a windup in pain which in turn can become chronic because the influx of Ca2+ to the neurons can cause a permanent change of structure.

Taking antiacids won´t cause dependency. Using spironolactone/revivogen for short bursts won´t cause dependency - it´s safe! to use them in sprints if you feel like it - however it could be you lose ALL the hair gained from using it once you stop using it. However that´s not 100% certain and maybe 10% of the hair grown on spironolactone will stay (all will probably shed but due to different mechanism).

However 100% of the hair grown on minoxidil will shed if you stop using minoxidil because of the DEPENDENCY caused by minoxidil.

Now if you disagree with me - fine! but the word dependency should be defined right and if you agree with me that it´s better to use spironolactone / revivogen in spurts then not at all then you have nullified the reason for HairLossTalk.com to answer this post from the begining.

Peace!

 

[Bryan]

Using Losec will upregulate the mucosa by up to 30% giving you that much more HCl production once you get of the drug - this is my definition of dependency. Or what cocaine does to your NE.

Sure, but so what? I took great pains to specify that in THIS PARTICULAR CONTEXT (male pattern balding), when people casually talk about being "dependent" on a treatment (Propecia, Rogaine, whatever), they mean that if they stop using it, they'll lose all the benefits they got from it.

Taking antiacids won´t cause dependency. Using spironolactone/revivogen for short bursts won´t cause dependency - it´s safe!

Ok, now that I understand what YOU mean by "dependency"... I still can't agree with what you said above. I think spironolactone/Revivogen will cause YOUR kind of dependency (androgen receptor upregulation) to the same extent that it's actually EFFECTIVE. In other words, sure, short bursts won't cause much upregulation, but neither will they work very well. You can't have it both ways! :wink:

to use them in sprints if you feel like it - however it could be you lose ALL the hair gained from using it once you stop using it. However that´s not 100% certain and maybe 10% of the hair grown on spironolactone will stay.

That's highly speculative. My guess is that it buys you some time, but that's about it. Meaning that you do lose everything you had gained. And also meaning that you were DEPENDENT on the spironolactone/Revivogen, in BOTH of our two meanings of the word.

However 100% of the hair grown on minoxidil will shed if you stop using minoxidil because of the DEPENDENCY caused by minoxidil.

Yes. And I think the same is true of spironolactone/Revivogen.

Now if you disagree with me - fine! but the word dependency should be defined right...

Several of us had defined SEVERAL TIMES what we mean by that word. You have only now explained what YOU mean by it.

and if you agree with me that it´s better to use spironolactone / revivogen in spurts then not at all then you have nullified the reason for HairLossTalk.com to answer this post from the begining.

I don't agree with that at all. I've always felt that it's better to use antiandrogens/5a-reductase inhibitors either consistently or not at all, because there could conceivably be bad effects from YOUR kind of "dependency".

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Then thanks for that information because if I had konwn that there could be an upregulation of enzyme/DHT production then I would never have suggested it and if HairLossTalk.com had made that statement from the begining then this exchange would have ended at page 1 with me saying - oh I wasn´t aware of this, I´m sorry.

 

[jason566]

Revivogen can cause upregulation of DHT??
HOw can it do that?
I thought it blocked by dht and test on the scalp not caused more..

 

[Guest]

Revivogen can cause upregulation of DHT??
HOw can it do that?
I thought it blocked by dht and test on the scalp not caused more..

I never said it could.

 

[Bryan]

Revivogen can cause upregulation of DHT??
HOw can it do that?

Nobody ever said that it causes upregulation of DHT. What we were talking about is that Sawaya found that finasteride (and by extension, one would expect the same thing from Revivogen) supposedly causes upregulation of androgen receptors. Those are two completely different things.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

I talked to a professor about dependency and he agreed with me - and I wasn´t selling my case. Dependency means physical dependency.

Alcoholics get it due to the excess sugar, cocain addicts get it due to downregualted NE receptors, nine inch nails addicts get it due to the fact the the music fcking moves you!

If you have an insulin shortage you are dependant on insulin but insulin itself doesn´t cause dependency. If you have an upset stomach you can take anti acids - but they won´t cause dependency. If you take cortison for a couple of weeks then the body will downregulate it´s own production - it causes dependency!

If you use spironolactone and it doesn´t upregulate enzym production then it doesn´t cause dependency - meaning the body doesn´t adapt. However if the body responds and produces more enzym and will take you below baseline once you get of it - then it causes dependency.

HairLossTalk.com the next time you wreak havoc upon Drs you might wanna think twice - why? because a) most doctors that are active today never read a page about hairloss - I didn´t and I´m past that part of my education. b) hairloss is not a disease - it´s an inherited condition. c) hairloss isn´t pathologic (well to your follicles it is) and it´s more likely that the treatement will cause harm then anything else.

I really feel for kids 17, 18 - 25 years old that thin, I really do. I´m happy it didn´t happen to me until I was 29 and it was rapid - I never thought about it before. I´ve adjusted and moved on. I feel alot of people my age should focus on other things then hairloss but for the young I really hope a cure will be imminent.

Until there are indiciations that spironolactone/revivogen upregulates DHT/enzyme I´m suggesting spurts of topicals if you can afford them - it´s better then nothing.

 

[Bryan]

I talked to a professor about dependency and he agreed with me - and I wasn´t selling my case. Dependency means physical dependency.

When people use that word here and on other hairloss sites, they generally have a more colloquial use of the word in mind, not the technical one you're describing that relates to various possible feedback mechanisms that can occur in the body when certain drugs are taken. In other words, it's not a question strictly to be considered by professors, doctors, and scientists, it's a question that's perhaps more relevant for lexicographers! :wink:

Until there are indiciations that spironolactone/revivogen upregulates DHT/enzyme I´m suggesting spurts of topicals if you can afford them - it´s better then nothing.

Why do you feel that way, nesta? And which topicals are you referring to? ALL of them, or just spironolactone/Revivogen?

Bryan

 

[Guest]

The ones I´ve read about.

Tricomin - should shoote inflammation via copper peptides. This seems like a fair topical to use when inflammation sets in. Baseproduct should be nizoral but tricomin seems like a good complement. Hairgrowth I don´t really think so - but hey if it gives the follicle space to breathe - why not. Does it cause dependency - not the way I define it.

spironolactone - up until now I thought spironolactone simply blocked the enzyme converting Testosterone to DHT. I thought that there where no signals that indicated upregulation of enzyme since for that to happen there must be some external signal going out and telling the body that something is missing. spironolactone is metabolised in the skin so it does not effect the system - and thank god since it´s cancerogenic?

Revivogen - Again the same as with spironolactone but since I´m not sure about where this stuff goes and really how it works I´m not gonna say to much.

I do belive that minoxidil causes dependency. I´m afraid that minoxidil could cause healthy hair to become dependent - because they think it works by inducing Ca2+ and then you start alot of sh*t in the cell that can change it permanently - the cell is careful about inducing Ca2+.

Are you feeling me?

Ps. question to HairLossTalk.com, how long do you wait between applications of Revivogen and spironolactone? how long should one wait before adding 2% spironolactone to a head full of revivogen?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bryan]

The ones I´ve read about.

Tricomin - should shoote inflammation via copper peptides. This seems like a fair topical to use when inflammation sets in. Baseproduct should be nizoral but tricomin seems like a good complement. Hairgrowth I don´t really think so - but hey if it gives the follicle space to breathe - why not. Does it cause dependency - not the way I define it.

Ummm....ok, but you still didn't say why you would use Tricomin in spurts!

BTW, I can cite you some studies that have been published on the effects of copper peptides on hairgrowth, so I'm not sure why you seem to be so dubious about that.

spironolactone - up until now I thought spironolactone simply blocked the enzyme converting Testosterone to DHT.

Actually, spironolactone is widely considered to be an androgen receptor blocker, not a 5a-reductase inhibitor.

I _have_ seen two early studies (like from the 1980's, if I recall correctly) which looked at whether or not spironolactone inhibits 5a-reductase, and they CONFLICTED with each other! One said it does, the other said it doesn't! :freaked:

I thought that there where no signals that indicated upregulation of enzyme since for that to happen there must be some external signal going out and telling the body that something is missing.

I'm not sure what you mean by "external signal". In this case, the "signal" would simply be the relative lack of androgenic stimulation (via DHT) which would directly upregulate the cellular production of androgen receptor protein.

spironolactone is metabolised in the skin so it does not effect the system - and thank god since it´s cancerogenic?

Who said anything about the "system"?? This is an effect at the CELLULAR level!

Revivogen - Again the same as with spironolactone but since I´m not sure about where this stuff goes and really how it works I´m not gonna say to much.

Again, it's just a CELLULAR response, same as with topical spironolactone.

I do belive that minoxidil causes dependency. I´m afraid that minoxidil could cause healthy hair to become dependent - because they think it works by inducing Ca2+ and then you start alot of sh*t in the cell that can change it permanently - the cell is careful about inducing Ca2+.

Huh?? The evidence indicates that the hairloss from minoxidil withdrawal is only TEMPORARY. But in any event, you still haven't said anything about why you recommend topicals in "spurts".

Bryan

 

[HairlossTalk]

if HairLossTalk.com had made that statement from the begining then this exchange would have ended at page 1 with me saying - oh I wasn´t aware of this, I´m sorry.

Baloney. Don't blame me. You majorly contradicted yourself, and then scrambled to overcomplicate the discussion to try and look intelligent. In reality you just plain didn't know the complete definition of dependence. I still don't think you do.

You did not need to know this detail Bryan revealed either. Why?

Because it has nothing to do with it.

Please try to comprehend the only thing I am trying to say:

Bryan put it clearly: If it is not a permanent cure, there is dependence. Period. That is all i was saying from the beginning and that remains a true statement to the end. Revivogen cannot be started and stopped. You said it could. It is as simple as a cause-effect relationship, and nothing more. Push something over a cliff and it will fall.

You just can't admit when you're wrong. :wink:

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

Uhm I´m not wrong.
Uhm I´m not trying to act smarter then anyone else (check my prior posts and look for god complex, you won´t find any).

Bryan: If you have the money then use revivogen/spironolactone constantly. If you don´t have the money to use it constantly but could maybe use it every other month - fine it´s better then nothing.

I want to answer your question with a question - why do you tell people not to use revivogen/spironolactone in spurts. I want an answer and I want facts backing that answer.

 

[Guest]

Before we start let´s take away the effect on hair of normal, healthy ageing

no such thing, all ageing is disease

 

[Guest]

Ty you Mofo you never made me that Avatar. I want a new one, something involving HairLossTalk.com, a shootgun ... nah kidding.

 

[Guest]

Ty you Mofo you never made me that Avatar. I want a new one, something involving HairLossTalk.com, a shootgun ... nah kidding.

:freaked:

been busy, there are about 3 or 4 avatars waiting to go in the avatarator!!!

 

[Guest]

I lub you man.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan: If you have the money then use revivogen/spironolactone constantly. If you don´t have the money to use it constantly but could maybe use it every other month - fine it´s better then nothing.

I think using ANY kind of antiandrogen treatment (I use the term loosely), whether it be topical or systemic, in that intermittent a manner (on for a month, then off for a month) would be INSANE. Far better would be to shorten the period considerably, like on for a day, off for a day. That would use the same amount of the drug and cost the same, but should avoid any nasty effects of going on and off over such an extended period of time as a month!

I want to answer your question with a question - why do you tell people not to use revivogen/spironolactone in spurts. I want an answer and I want facts backing that answer.

Unlike most other people, I personally am not terribly concerned about that possible issue of androgen receptor upregulation from finasteride use (and probably all other antiandrogen-type treatments). I was astonished what a furor that created, when Sawaya's report first came out! It never even occurred to me that people would find that so interesting, and worry over it so much!

However, having said that, there are limits even to what _I_ would do, and I sure as hell wouldn't go using antiandrogens for long periods of time, then stopping them for long periods of time, then repeating the process. I'd pick a level I could afford, and stick with that on a daily or at least every-other-day basis, to avoid possible haywire up- and down-regulation issues, just like the ones that YOU were talking about! :wink:

Bryan

 

[HairlossTalk]

a shootgun

Forget your logic skills. Your spelling alone is impressive!

:freak: