Revivogen

[HairlossTalk]

Why dont you come into the chat room so we can have a real-time discussion on this issue.

That is ... unless ... you're afraid .... BOK BOK :sulkoff:

(see i can act juvenile too)

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/onlinechat/chat.htm

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

Ok let´s go another round.

Since there is no cure for HairLossTalk.com then whatever you use that works causes dependancy - we both agree on this. I will use a long distance run to illustrate my point.

Before we start let´s take away the effect on hair of normal, healthy ageing and let´s assume that DHT and your genetic setup are the sole reasons behind your hairloss.

Everyday until you are really old the body will pump out testosterone and that testosterone will turn into DHT and it will kill your hair. Let´s say for the sake of argument that you live 30000 days and for 20000 of those days the body will produce DHT.

If you use topicals for 1000 of those days then DHT will only kill your hair for 19000 days - the 1000 days are safe. Then things return to normal or the way you would have been without topicals. During those 1000 days on topicals your follicle regenerated some, maybe a hair started growing and once you discontinue it will again be subjected to DHT and stop producing hair - but you still went 1000 days "safe" and you came closer to the point where your body stops producing DHT at a level where it hurts your hair - or better still you are closer to the cure that looms in the future.

minoxidil on the other hand doesn´t inhibit DHT so it´s just like what I tried to illustrate with the ice-cube. When you use minoxidil your follicle is still being attacked and once you stop the hair will fall out.

 

[HairlossTalk]

Since there is no cure for HairLossTalk.com then whatever you use that works causes dependancy - we both agree on this.

Correct, and end of discussion.

But you should never have said DHT inhibitors can be stopped without adding a clarification.

You are a med student. What is the definition of a "drug" ? Anything that causes a change to the body's normal processes.

Kindergarten logic states that if you introduce a DHT inhibitor that causes DHT inhibition, you must keep that DHT inhibitor present to continue the DHT inhibition.

There is no argument. We don't even disagree. There isn't even anything to debate.

However your statement that a DHT inhibitor can be STOPPED, and implying that benefits will continue, is flat out wrong.

If you make this statement you MUST state that it can be stopped and any benefits received from it will also be lost. You yourself admitted this is the case. So in reality you should not even be telling people that DHT inhibitors can be taken temporarily WITHOUT also stating that any gains made will be lost upon cessation of said treatment.

I really feel like im discussing kindergarten logic here. This is so basic.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

When you use minoxidil your follicle is still being attacked and once you stop the hair will fall out.

Dude... I swear.

"And when you use DHT inhibitors your follicle is no longer being attacked, and once you stop, the hair will fall out again because the DHT inhibitor is no longer there".

AKA DEPENDENCE.

Please see my last post 2 above.... definitions of Dependence.

Lordy!

:uglylol:

 

[Guest]

Since there is no cure for HairLossTalk.com then whatever you use that works causes dependancy - we both agree on this.

Correct, and end of discussion.

But you should never have said DHT inhibitors can be stopped without adding a clarification.

You are a med student. What is the definition of a "drug" ? Anything that causes a change to the body's normal processes.

Kindergarten logic states that if you introduce a DHT inhibitor that causes DHT inhibition, you must keep that DHT inhibitor present to continue the DHT inhibition.

There is no argument. We don't even disagree. There isn't even anything to debate.

However your statement that a DHT inhibitor can be STOPPED, and implying that benefits will continue, is flat out wrong.

If you make this statement you MUST state that it can be stopped and any benefits received from it will also be lost. You yourself admitted this is the case. So in reality you should not even be telling people that DHT inhibitors can be taken temporarily WITHOUT also stating that any gains made will be lost upon cessation of said treatment.

I really feel like im discussing kindergarten logic here. This is so basic.

HairLossTalk.com

Again - You just want the last word!

If you have a boat and there is a hole in the boat would it sink faster or slower if you used a bucket to throw water out of the boat?

Ok imagine the anti DHT instead of the bucket! You are still sinking but for the period of time which you where throwing out the water you where sinking less fast so during that time.

You need to do this a) check your glasses b) check your memory - or let me help you .... scroll back to my first reply to kevins question. I said he should get on topicals asap because it takes time for finasteride to accumuate - you can always discontinue topicals later because there is no DEPENDENCY! like with minoxidil.

If minoxidil works by inducing Ca2+ then there is a much greater risk for permanent change to cellfunction since Ca2+ has that kind of effect - it´s called plasticity.

 

[Bryan]

I said he should get on topicals asap because it takes time for finasteride to accumuate - you can always discontinue topicals later because there is no DEPENDENCY! like with minoxidil.

Nesta, I've been confused by this discussion, and I feel it basically is over the uncertainty of the strict definition of the term "dependency". Are you saying that topicals like spironolactone and Revivogen don't have problems with "dependency" simply because there are other methods (Propecia, Avodart) that will essentially accomplish the same thing? Is that what all this confusion is about, just whether or not one treatment can perform the same function as some other treatment?

Bryan

 

[Guest]

What I´m saying is this:

With DHT or enzyme blocking (topical) you are letting your own tissue recover while finasteride gets built up in the system. The only dependency is the one caused by your own wish to have hair - it´s a psychologial dependency.

True, when you go off the topical DHT inhibition the follicles or whatever will be attacked again but that´s constantly happening even if you didn´t start with the topicals.

However with minoxidil you are introducing something new to the system and once you stop using minoxidil then everything gained from the usage will be lost.

So in one case you are taking away something that exists (-) while in the other you are adding something (+).

Correct me if I´m wrong but a sprint of anti DHT topicals or enzyme can´t be bad for you? The follicles aren´t producing new physical structures - nothing that needs to be maintained.

 

[Bryan]

So in one case you are taking away something that exists (-) while in the other you are adding something (+).

Do you think that's an important distinction? I really don't think it is. In either case, if you stop using the treatment, you lose the hair that you had gained, and that's the bottom-line. I think that's what we all mean when we casually use the word "dependence" in this context.

Bryan

 

[BadHairDecade]

:roll:

 

[HairlossTalk]

I feel it basically is over the uncertainty of the strict definition of the term "dependency".

In either case, if you stop using the treatment, you lose the hair that you had gained, and that's the bottom-line.

You have summarized all my posts very well:

1. Any cause-effect-relationship is a dependency. Period. Understanding the definition of the word is important if one is going to have an entire discussion surrounding it.

2. The entire topic is irrelevent because the results are the same. You still lose any benefit you gain, and that, by definition, is dependency.

Therefore, nesta, we would ask that you stop telling people they can stop "Topical DHT inhibitors anytime" they want, without adding that they will lose all the results they've seen on them.

This is incorrect information.

Thank you.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

Since minoxidil is a temporary growth stimulant and spironolactone/revivogen let´s the follicles do the job by inhibiting some other substance then you have two different types of dependency.

I can´t belive a smart guy like you fails to make the connection.

 

[BadHairDecade]

It´s important to add as much as possible as fast as possible and then you can always discontinue use of the topicals.

This whole mess started with this insanly misleading post.

 

[HairlossTalk]

Nesta Im starting to think you're one sandwich short of a picnic.

First you stated there was no dependency.

Bottom line - there is no dependence when it comes to topcials like spironolactone and revivogen.

I spent 4 pages saying there was:

It may not be the same type, but its still a form of dependency

Now you say:

then you have two different types of dependency. I can´t belive a smart guy like you fails to make the connection.

This truly is a scary halloween!

:freaked2:

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Petchsky]

This is a message for Nesta's ego - Let it go!

You seem to treat the human body as a predictable machine... 4+4=8/4=2...

 

[Bryan]

Since minoxidil is a temporary growth stimulant and spironolactone/revivogen let´s the follicles do the job by inhibiting some other substance then you have two different types of dependency.

I hate to belabor this point, but I'll add what I hope is one last comment:

In my view, different treatments don't really have different "types" of dependency in the loose way that we all use that term here; in this context, the word "dependency" simply means that if you stop using a treatment (ANY treatment) and don't replace that treatment with another effective one, then you'll lose the results that you received from that treatment (the only exception being hair transplants, of course).

Different treatments certainly work in different ways, of course, but "dependence" just means that you have to keep using a given treatment. It says nothing about how that treatment actually works, the scientific theory or rationale behind it, whether it's an antiandrogen or a growth stimulant, etc. etc. ad infinitum!

Bryan

 

[Chujgcha]

...

 

[Guest]

Wtf is wrong with you guys?

 

[HairlossTalk]

:shock:

 

[Guest]

Ok last round: Bryan/HairLossTalk.com to your knowledge does spironolactone/revivogen cause downregulation/up regulation of any structure associated with the follicle or does it simply, short term inhibit.

Question nr 2: Would you say that Losec causes dependency?

 

[Bryan]

Ok last round: Bryan/HairLossTalk.com to your knowledge does spironolactone/revivogen cause downregulation/up regulation of any structure associated with the follicle or does it simply, short term inhibit.

It sounds like you're suggesting a possible upregulation of androgen receptors, like what Sawaya allegedly found in finasteride users. I've never seen claims for that for TOPICAL antiandrogens or 5a-reductase inhibitors like spironolactone or Revivogen, but I would be greatly surprised if results were not the same as with oral finasteride users.

Question nr 2: Would you say that Losec causes dependency?

Do you think Losec has a permanent effect?

Bryan