RIKEN Announcement: Succeeded in Developing Tech for HF Regenerative Medicine: Study to be Published Feb 10

[czecha]

I think I answered your question earlier.
It is because you have an idea that is worth a billion dollar and you have no money on you, you WON't accept money from an investor, to take 10% stake in exchange of 10M$. It does not make sense. So you rely on friends, family, and reach out to people who care in your business.

Now again Riken is not a business. So that was a hypothetical. But if they are interested in partnership right now there is too much uncertainty for investors to offer a good deal. Remember they know more than we know about the chances of their technology.

Anyway, even if they turn out to be crooks (they published this in a great journal) I don't know how much people would regret donating 50 bucks.

I don't get it. People here treat their hair as if it is their life, guilty of that too, what is the big deal of spending SOME money on it?

no... instead let's just sit and complain.

im not gonna donate so lebron can get his cure in 5 years, and I get mine when I'm in my 40s or 50s, lol.

 

[pegasus2]

The sooner they start the sooner the price comes down. They should do a Kickstarter deal where if you donate 30k you get a free procedure when it hits the market. I'd do that in a second, and so would many others. They would have their money in a day.

 

[jan_miezda]

I think I answered your question earlier.
It is because you have an idea that is worth a billion dollar and you have no money on you, you WON't accept money from an investor, to take 10% stake in exchange of 10M$. It does not make sense. So you rely on friends, family, and reach out to people who care in your business.

Now again Riken is not a business. So that was a hypothetical. But if they are interested in partnership right now there is too much uncertainty for investors to offer a good deal. Remember they know more than we know about the chances of their technology.

Anyway, even if they turn out to be crooks (they published this in a great journal) I don't know how much people would regret donating 50 bucks.

I don't get it. People here treat their hair as if it is their life, guilty of that too, what is the big deal of spending SOME money on it?

no... instead let's just sit and complain.

i think a problem that happened is that Riken does not want to be involved in a "risky" cell based therapy so they didn't provide any funding for it. they could have taken 5mill debt on (another conspiracy theory)

 

[pegasus2]

Goldman Sachs asks in biotech research report: 'Is curing patients a sustainable business model?'

 

[trialAcc]

Bad comparison. In august 2018 Samumed prepared an important phase 3 study with +640 participants and multiple centers, employees, administrative sh*t with FDA and Turkey, etc...For Tsuji it's more simple as they already have the support of Japan government, and he doesn't need to do a huge phase 3 study with hundreads participants.
A more honest comparison would be to compare the cost of phase 1 trial for SM04554 and that of the future trial of Dr.Tsuji. And even doing that the comparison would still be wrong.

Yeah exactly why they shouldn't be begging for donations on twitter or broadcasting their desperation for a partner. 4.8 million isn't even a rounding error to most of the VC firms and accredited investors that back biotech startups. I don't understand why it keeps getting brought up that they are supported by the government. If they had government backing we would never have heard about a funding requirement. University labs get grants larger then 5 million all the time.

 

[trialAcc]

Goldman Sachs asks in biotech research report: 'Is curing patients a sustainable business model?'

And the answer is yes. The newest approvals in the rna therapeutics and gene therapy spaces prove this, and I'm not surprised to see the article dated at 2018 before any of these approvals started. Most of these 1 time treatments are using a business model that charges into the 7 figures for the treatment and following support as a 1 time payment.

The lifetime customer value ends up being roughly the same or more then traditional drug treatments. That's literally why there is billions flowing into these startups from VC firms. Symptomatic treatment is on it's way out.

 

[pegasus2]

And the answer is yes. The newest approvals in the rna therapeutics and gene therapy spaces prove this, and I'm not surprised to see the article dated at 2018 before any of these approvals started. Most of these 1 time treatments are using a business model that charges into the 7 figures for the treatment and following support as a 1 time payment.

The lifetime customer value ends up being roughly the same or more then traditional drug treatments. That's literally why there is billions flowing into these startups from VC firms.

I wasn't implying that it wasn't. I was simply pointing out that these people are nothing but vultures who couldn't care less if people live or die as long as they get rich.

 

[trialAcc]

I think I answered your question earlier.
It is because you have an idea that is worth a billion dollar and you have no money on you, you WON't accept money from an investor, to take 10% stake in exchange of 10M$. It does not make sense. So you rely on friends, family, and reach out to people who care in your business.

Now again Riken is not a business. So that was a hypothetical. But if they are interested in partnership right now there is too much uncertainty for investors to offer a good deal. Remember they know more than we know about the chances of their technology.

Anyway, even if they turn out to be crooks (they published this in a great journal) I don't know how much people would regret donating 50 bucks.

I don't get it. People here treat their hair as if it is their life, guilty of that too, what is the big deal of spending SOME money on it?

no... instead let's just sit and complain.

Man this is just not true. Venture capital literally exists to take these bets on companies with slim chances of success. They invest 10 mil into 100 companies that all have a 1/100 chance of succeeding, but that 1/100 turns the 10 mil into 50 billion.

People (well, me) are saying it's a big deal because this looks amateur as hell. If these guys can't organize themselves to raise small funding privately/professionally with what they are touting as groundbreaking science then how can you trust them to raise the likely 10x amount required for larger trials and commercialization? How can we hope on mass commercialization in our own countries with licensed hair transplant surgeons?

 

[Haironnu]

And the answer is yes. The newest approvals in the rna therapeutics and gene therapy spaces prove this, and I'm not surprised to see the article dated at 2018 before any of these approvals started. Most of these 1 time treatments are using a business model that charges into the 7 figures for the treatment and following support as a 1 time payment.

The lifetime customer value ends up being roughly the same or more then traditional drug treatments. That's literally why there is billions flowing into these startups from VC firms. Symptomatic treatment is on it's way out.

if this gonna cost 6 to 7 figures, vast majority of us won't be able to afford it anyway.

so this RIKEN solution, whenever it comes out, will be for the rich only. for the average joe- cure/treatment is not coming in the next several decades.

 

[werefckd]

They once were business-organized. They had Organ up and running and raised venture capital. But then some bad things happened, Organ went under now they are basically in anything goes mode.

 

[trialAcc]

If you told anyone in the world that you have the cure for hair loss, and you've already tested it in a human, and received regulatory approval to conduct clinical trials for commercialization, and the only thing stopping you is that you need 4.8 million dollars to do it, nobody would believe you. Yet here we are.

Tsuji is definitely not a scammer. Read his research yourself. It's solid work, and he's an eminent Japanese researcher. Honor and integrity aren't hollow words in Japan even in the 21st century. Seppuku is still a thing there. If you notice they haven't tweeted today. I'm guessing they've received some serious inquiries.

I'm not calling him a scammer but it's completely possibly his science isn't where you think it is.

 

[pegasus2]

I think his point was that Tsuji et. al. know what they have and don't want to give it away to vulture capitalists. After they complete a phase I trial they will get much more favorable terms in a partnership.

 

[trialAcc]

if this gonna cost 6 to 7 figures, vast majority of us won't be able to afford it anyway.

so this RIKEN solution, whenever it comes out, will be for the rich only. for the average joe- cure/treatment is not coming in the next several decades.

Very unlikely this costs 7 figures, but I think 6 is a guarantee at the start. The treatments i referenced cost 7 figures largely because insurance is involved due to most of them being life threatening. We're talking about spinal muscular atrophy, sickle cell anemia, etc. Not a "cosmetic". Pricing models usually involve insurance for the bulk of drug pricing.

 

[werefckd]

I think his point was that Tsuji et. al. know what they have and don't want to give it away to vulture capitalists. After they complete a phase I trial they will get much more favorable terms in a partnership.

Sorry man but that's utter BS. "Vulture Capitalists" lol. The only reason we have the mRNA vaccines and other great treatments is because of venture capital.

Tsuji never said they are against capitalists. They are even trying to get an intro to Allergan. If you are a pre revenue biotech company, venture capital is a necessary part of the game.

 

[Haironnu]

Very unlikely this costs 7 figures, but I think 6 is a guarantee at the start. The treatments i referenced cost 7 figures largely because insurance is involved due to most of them being life threatening. We're talking about spinal muscular atrophy, sickle cell anemia, etc. Not a "cosmetic". Pricing models usually involve insurance for the bulk of drug pricing.

yeah, well, same thing, how many of us have 6 digits ready to be spent on a cosmetic surgery?
I won't have 6 digits ready for cosmetic surgery even in the next 20 years, and by then in all honestly hair loss won't even matter because I'll be an old man.

 

[pegasus2]

The price will almost certainly be in the low to mid 6 figures to start, but it will come down within ten years.

 

[pegasus2]

Sorry man but that's utter BS. "Vulture Capitalists" lol. The only reason we have the mRNA vaccines and other great treatments is because of venture capital.

Tsuji never said they are against capitalists. They are even trying to get an intro to Allergan. If you are a pre revenue biotech company, venture capital is a necessary part of the game.

Yes, all that's true. That doesn't mean they aren't vultures. I don't understand why poor people are so keen on defending the ultra rich.

 

[trialAcc]

yeah, well, same thing, how many of us have 6 digits ready to be spent on a cosmetic surgery?
I won't have 6 digits ready for cosmetic surgery even in the next 20 years, and by then in all honestly hair loss won't even matter because I'll be an old man.

That's why you should be concerned like I am about how they are approaching this. If we can't count on them to commercialize this well and license it out globally then it wont matter if they succeed because the price will be monopolized and never drop. If it's available by hair surgeons globally you'll start to see it become affordable in the realm of regular transplants.

 

[werefckd]

Yes, all that's true. That doesn't mean they aren't vultures. I don't understand why poor people are so keen on defending the ultra rich.

We are talking about venture capital, not junk bonds or corporate raids. Any venture capital firm worth their salt is not a vulture. You know why? Because they invest early and the only reason they get their money back + a return is if the company succeeds on the long term.

 

[pegasus2]

We are talking about venture capital, not junk bonds or corporate raids. Any venture capital firm worth their salt is not a vulture. You know why? Because they invest early and the only reason they get their money back + a return is if the company succeeds on the long term.

They are vultures because they do not contribute anything to society except for money. Someone else does the hard work building something and they come in and take half of it just because they are well capitalized.