Skin Needling

[joseph49853]

I continue to have great success everywhere (hairline, temples, crown,) except for my vertex, which is only marginal... with a completely wet head. The vertex is where my thinning first started many years ago, so it's no surprise that it's the last to respond. My hairline is the most astounding response though, and the overall sheen, volume, body, and thickness of the existing treated hair. I plan on updating my progress in the following weeks, including those topical supplements that worked best for me. I have access to TONS of supplement powders, and have tried everything under the sun this last year. I believe that the topical used is just as important to the entire process.

 

[avi21]

i've just ordered the gold roller because it's half price from the novaderm and the same needels size

what the reason it's last only 3 mouth?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... AQ:AU:1123

 

[powersam]

i've just ordered the gold roller because it's half price from the novaderm and the same needels size

what the reason it's last only 3 mouth?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... AQ:AU:1123

The Novaderm Skin & Scalp Roller - needle length 0.75mm, gauge 0.25mm

Gold Roller - needle length of 0.25mm providing safe penetration of 0.07mm

Its needles are a third of the length of the novaderm.

 

[JayB]

I was interested in this method when i first read about wound healing over the summer.

I am very concerned with the possiblity of infection. Can an experienced needler break down the best way to avoid the possiblity of an infection...
1. how is the roller sterilized and how often
2. should the scalp be sterilized with alcohol as well before needling
3. how often do the needles on the roller need to be replaced

And lastly, how long does the needling process take? Do you roll it on the scalp once and sterilize the needles before rolling it on the scalp for every additional roll? How many times do you roll it on the same area of the scalp?

Sorry for the questions, but if im going to do this i really want to do this the most efficient and safest way possible.

 

[Kuma]

I have experienced no signs of infection or even reddness (over 1 month now with the Novaderm 96 - see Kuma). I roll (it takes under 1 minute) after I shower (I shampoo every shower).

So far as sterilization, you can use some alcohol on the roller just before use (and after it dries). You definitely do not want to spread alcohol on your head. :shock: Rolling just after shampooing would greatly limit the possibility of infection.

The needles cannot be replaced. They are set into a solid drum of some type of plastic or nylon. It should last a long time as the tines are solid. Hypodermic needles dull rapidly because they are hollow and the metal used is cheap since they are only used once.

I roll about 10 times in one track (shifting forward or backward slightly on each pass so not to place the holes in the same spot). I then shift over to start a new track. You can zip it along as speed has nothing to do with effectiveness. I then use minoxidil afterward and I am set. I must emphasize, do not think of the initial investment as expensive - it is cost per use that you should be considering. The needles are acupuncture needles (per Novaderm) so the steel should be high quality. I've noticed no dulling after 1 month daily use - and I say again - I am impressed with the quality of the product. Safe + ease of use + lack of pain + low cost per use = :bravo: The one variable not yet factored in is effectiveness. I have had it only about 1 month now. I have noticed peach fuzz in previously bare areas and in areas that minoxidil alone hadn't grown - so I am hopeful. I will report my findings as time goes by. See my previous posts on needling for other info.

 

[alkulk]

Hi,

can you post pics of the effects of rolling?

Thanks

 

[Kuma]

I have peach fuzz right now in certain areas that were previously bare - the other areas are suffering diffuse thinning, so, I cannot see any difference yet - either way there is nothing for the camera to catch. Plus, I haven't taken before and after shots. I am not out to sell anyone on this - just hoping those who are considering it and have not bought due to fear of low product quality / high initial cost / pain will give this product a chance. I will continue to update any changes in the near future.

I just realized you may not have been addressing my post :blush:

 

[alkulk]

I just realized you may not have been addressing my post :blush:

Actually I did.

 

[jcn50]

I have noticed peach fuzz in previously bare areas and in areas that minoxidil alone hadn't grown - so I am hopeful. I will report my findings as time goes by. See my previous posts on needling for other info.

Hello Kuma, can you update your results using the roller?... :hairy:

 

[Kuma]

Nothing really new other than longer peach fuzz. It's only been about 2 months so far so I am still hopeful. I have cut down the rolling from 10 times per line to 5 and from everyday to every other day. There was a general sensitivity building when I rolled that much and that often. Nothing really painful but it just seemed to be more sensitive to the tines. I figured that the unit will last far longer this way too. I was exceeding the recommended usage at the time anyway (you know....the more - the better attitude we guys sometimes have when starting something new). I will definitely update when anything noticeable occurs and otherwise perhaps monthly or so.

 

[jcn50]

Kuma, Any good news/update? :hairy:

 

[Kuma]

I have seen results - I have hair in previously very sparse areas where minoxidil alone wasn't working as well. Mind you, it is not in nearly so thick as when I had a full head of hair, but then again, I've only been at it for a few months. I see previous peach fuzz grown out to over 1" and more peach fuzz coming in. My hair is white in most areas now as I am near 50 yrs. old - so this new hair is also white. It doesn't cover up nearly so well as a darker color would have but it is definitely there. I have high hopes and I shall give updates - positive or negative - about monthly or so. I was thinking of just needling part of a bald area so I could see, definitively, if it were just the needling that worked. However, after I saw new peach fuzz growing, I just couldn't resist rolling my whole thinning area.

It is still too early to tell for sure since it could just be part of a cycle of growth and the peach fuzz might go away - however, the first growth of fuzz is still going strong (1").

One thing I must tell you though. About the same time I ordered the roller, I also started using 1% Nizoral once a day / Dr. Lee's 15% minoxidil once a day before work - using the roller just before / and minoxidil foam just on the receding areas just before bed. The new hair could be from all combined - However, I had been using 5% minoxidil for much longer throughout the thinning and receding areas and only after I started rolling did I notice the new peach fuzz (which continues to grow longer). The new formulas would have taken longer to take effect than the short period of a few weeks after rolling showed new hair growth. And so, I remain optimistically hopeful.

Was it worth the price?.....You bet. :jump:

 

[harold]

Interesting that you should mention results today.
I got interested in this topic a few months ago in conjunction with the whole mouse neogenesis wnt thing. I gave the needling a go for.... a week or two? Every few days? I prob did about 5-7 sessions and maybe a couple since then. In order to make things a bit more "scientific" I decided that I would do it only on th one side of the head - around and in front of the hairline and on a scar where no hair grows. Mainly nowhere else on the head because I wouldn't be able to see if anything happened and I was frankly kinda ascared of damaging perfectly good hairs. I had just come off finasteride a couple of weeks before and have since tried a bunch of substitute topical antiandrogens on and off which didn't agree with me and for about the last 2 or so weeks have been on a topical lithium and NSAID regimen. Basically trying to go along with the Cotsarelis patents that show wnt and PGD2 are important factors.
Anyway I just washed my hair and it is all back from my face. I was looking in the mirror when I noticed what looked like a single hair floating out in the middle of "no-hair land" about a good half centimetre away from the hairline. Thats what made it noticeable - there are plenty of vellous type hairs around my hairline that hang down but it is only now that they have been wet and pushed back that I am able to see this odd little guy. I just checked him out again and I would say he is about 2 cm long and while he is a "little'un" he is not that thin - many of the hairs around the actual hairline and the hairs that I shed of late are thinner.
Being about as long as he is long he is too long to have begun life in the last couple of weeks when I jumped on my current routine. But I think he is about the right length to have begun life around the time I first needled. Checking the calender that was on the 14th of Nov (am a little obsessive about these things ) - sounds about right.I know this is a post about one single hair but this thing honestly does look kind of odd sitting out there where it does. I would put it down to increased facial hair growth since quitting finasteride but its sitting right in the temple area and though I am not a big receeder (diffuse thinning and crown are my problem areas) I dont have a teenage hairline either. And I did needle around that area kinda to see if something like this might happen.
I am on minoxidil but, though it did put a few fuzzy hairs on my cheek in the early days it never did anything like this. Its one hair again so it could be the random nature of the universe but I thought I would share.
hh

 

[jakeb]

Harold, what is your topical lithium and nsaid regimen?

 

[harold]

It was lithium carbonate at about 1% (close to the max solubility of lithium carbonate) then it was lithium citrate at a higher percentage (just added citric acid) but i got rid of that because it was horribly sticky. It is now lithium chloride (went back to the lithium carbonate solution and added hydrochloric acid this time.... a little nervewracking) at about 7.5%.
I switch between topical aspirin and topical ibuprofen between 1 to 3%. Ibuprofen has the lower solubility but aspirin can again leave a bit of a residue/sticky feeling in hair. You might not notice if your hair is shorter but it is something I find with a lot of topicals containing hydrophillic solutes that i make and it can be annoying. Based on some other stuff i have been reading i have also thrown in an antihistamine - 20 mg of cetirizine in about 60 ml (less than 0.02% or so). I think the combo of an antihistamine and an NSAID seems to be better against itch and pain than an NSAID alone (as a recent study suggested that the histamine and PGD2 worked synergistically to produce the symptoms of allergic rhinitis) but its only been a few days on that so it could be placebo effect. We will see.

 

[jakeb]

Interesting... I'm definitely interested in the idea of anything that can reduce inflammation. Would you happen to have any links available to more info on this topical NSAID idea? Thanks!

 

[harold]

Jakeb: see the thread on follica that is 7 pages long in the new research and discoveries section.It stagrts off on the lithium wnt thing and then kind of veers off into the pgd2 infflammation angle. There is a lot of dross mainy cos I posted whatever I thought might be relevant but i think there is some good stuff there.

Found this while searching the archives. Interesting.

dazzer1970
Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:22 am
dazzer1970 wrote:



I did forget to mention when I posted this that my sister has Systemic Lupus and about ten years ago lost a large part of her hair at the front during a flare up. She was told it probably wouldn't grow back, but after a chinese practitioner - through the aid of acupuncture and scalp stimulation using a small needled hammer type instrument - started work on her, within a year she had full regrowth and still does to this day.

Now, I know this is very different to male pattern baldness, but surely shows how the immune system can switch hair follicles and the growth cycles on/ off.

 

[GlasgowCelt]

Very interesting harold, something I believe is interesting about this needling routine and the exofoliation proceedure within skin. I believe that due to internal or external exposure to harmful gases (Pollution, smoking, drug abuse, drinking) that these gases somehow get trapped in our skin and needling/acupuncutre would be needed to release the skin of these harmful chemicals.

My friend got acupuncture and claims its the greatest thing since sliced bread! I told her to try "Hovis - granary" before she made such crazy remarks but yeah, apparently its good!

 

[joseph49853]

Just a few updates. Still needling 3-4x a week, and sparingly using retin-A 1x a week. I continue making progress with newly established hairs getting thicker, and an increase in overall density. My vertex has really started to respond, and my natural hairline is absolutely amazing now. I hardly shed at all, even in the dead of winter. And sometimes have gone days without any topical application to no ill effect.

I'm also getting lots of compliments about my hair and general appearance. Friends, acquaintances, and family ask what, if anything, is being done differently. They immediately notice any changes in hairstyles and haircuts; it's very gratifying. That rarely happened when my regimen was just minoxidil and finasteride; although during that time my hair was ratty and flat, instead of full and dense.

Facilitating WNT signaling through needling/wounding/supplements, and then increasing the proliferation of stem cells seems to be the most potent combination for hair follicle regeneration. Therefore, one of the biggest and best changes to my topical regimen has been the inclusion of stem cell proliferators, based on this research paper.

http://www.naturatherapeutics.com/image ... icle_1.pdf

I've also eliminated the more smelly and staining supplements, and tried to hone overall effectiveness and reduce redundancy. The entire topical concoction takes me five minutes to make every two months. Most of these supplement powders can be had very cheaply at beyondacenturyonline.com.

topical stem cell proliferators
------------------------------------
carnosine
green tea extract
vitamin D3 (gelcaps)
wild blueberry extract
resveratrol
DHA
(considering adding blue green algae)

minoxidil
bioperine (increases bioavailability, potential (?) to increase anagen phase)
caffeine (slightly redundant when included w/ green tea extract, anti-androgenic activity)
melatonin (increases anagen hair rate)
msm (increase penetration and absorption)
rosemary extract (decrease inflammation, potent COX-2 inhibitor) or holy basil (very smelly)
niacin (increases capillary action)
superoxide dismutase (breaks down superoxide, decreases oxidative stress and potential damaging effects of minoxidil)
nattozimes or serrazimes (reduce inflammation, breaks down fibrin, increase WNT signaling)

 

[Follically Challenged]

Thank you for the update Joseph, glad to hear you are experiencing good results.