Skin Needling
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joseph49853
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IBM said:
I won't post any pictures that might have me identified in a lineup.
Although, I might consider posting pictures of my hairline taken a while ago. I was probably foolish to not have better documented the early stages. I believe in those pics you can clearly see the natural hairline establishing itself almost a 1/2 inch away from my hairline... similar to what harold had mentioned. It was wild. And then eventually vellus hairs began forming behind these longer, thicker hairs. That's when it was clear to me this was working.
Also the scalp, in those newly established areas, has changed texture and pigmentation... to that of skin fully able to support new healthy follicles and hair... it's hard to describe. This has unequivocally proven, to me, you no longer have to choose between a sex drive and a full head of hair. Eventually I'll probably start backing off the needling a bit. Give me a few days to find those pics.
bornthisway
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Plum blossom hammer has been used for hair loss for some time too.. it's a type of needling.. and the needles are quite small, but it's believed to help with hair loss. I'm too tired to look for more relevant info but the last part of the following link just talks about it in practice at some skin clinic in Toronto. I remember running across a study and claims of regrowth in most of the patients.
http://www.vitalitymagazine.com/tcm_for_hair_loss
http://www.vitalitymagazine.com/tcm_for_hair_loss
IBM said:
joseph49853
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Just for the record, I have absolutely nothing to prove to anyone, and nothing to gain except hair. I started this thread looking for real-world needling/wounding information, only to myself start presenting research and experiences. I hope at least someone appreciates helping break my own promise of never posting pictures. It goes without saying this place has a preponderance of pharma cheerleaders and skeptics of anything outside the realm of patentable science.
As promised, I had to search a few memory cards for these pictures. They were taken approximately 1.5 years ago, around 5 months into my needling regimen. Here are pictures of my left temple, which had started to recede and thin rapidly to around a Norwood 2.5 mid 2006... yes, while on the much vaunted finasteride and minoxidil. Strangely my thinning wasn't symmetrical, as the right vertex and hairline were thinning at a much slower pace. This resulted in making my thinning and receding even more evident.
Today, I now have around a Norwood .25 (some might say Norwood 0) while experimenting with needling and using certain topicals, and continuing to thicken and grow at my vertex. I still use minoxidil occasionally, but haven't used finasteride in ages.
Approximately month 5 of needling....
You can clearly see smaller hairs growing inbetween already thicker established hairs in the close-ups. You can also see a few long hairs establishing at my new hairline. I just happened to be shedding skin that day after an application of retin-a. At this point, I stopped documenting any progress with my digital camera, as there was no longer any doubt in my mind. If you decide to give it a try, good luck, if not good luck anyway.
As promised, I had to search a few memory cards for these pictures. They were taken approximately 1.5 years ago, around 5 months into my needling regimen. Here are pictures of my left temple, which had started to recede and thin rapidly to around a Norwood 2.5 mid 2006... yes, while on the much vaunted finasteride and minoxidil. Strangely my thinning wasn't symmetrical, as the right vertex and hairline were thinning at a much slower pace. This resulted in making my thinning and receding even more evident.
Today, I now have around a Norwood .25 (some might say Norwood 0) while experimenting with needling and using certain topicals, and continuing to thicken and grow at my vertex. I still use minoxidil occasionally, but haven't used finasteride in ages.
Approximately month 5 of needling....
You can clearly see smaller hairs growing inbetween already thicker established hairs in the close-ups. You can also see a few long hairs establishing at my new hairline. I just happened to be shedding skin that day after an application of retin-a. At this point, I stopped documenting any progress with my digital camera, as there was no longer any doubt in my mind. If you decide to give it a try, good luck, if not good luck anyway.
Kuma
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I have a similar experience except my hair is hard to see as it is white on light skin. My fine hairs have grown to full length ones. I am still monitoring and reporting every month or two. I have found it to be worthwhile. I roll every other day - five times per row. I use 15% minoxidil afterward. Just before bed, I use 5% foam on front hairline (12 hrs. later). That is it.
im sorry but i dont really see anything convincing with it. he claims he goes from a norwood 2.5 to a norwood .25 or 0 but the pics dont really support it. at least you can't tell from what is posted. theres nothing to compare. the little hairs on the temple in my experience have rarely meant anything positive.
billythekid
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do you have any recent pics joseph49853?
this would be really helpful to others that are contemplating needling
this would be really helpful to others that are contemplating needling
joseph49853
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symbolx said:
Umm... whether you decide to needle or not is solely your decision. There have been many terms and topical supplement suggestions referenced here on the subject, plenty littered throughout these forums. I'll try to point anyone who asks in the right direction, but don't expect something for nothing. Either you have the capacity to search Pubmed and elsewhere, or prepare to be greatly disappointed.
My latest post was meant as a follow-up to those few e-mails and PM requests in my inbox. Those are what bring me back here. I initially was asking others to confirm my own anecdotal success, in my particular case of reversing alopecia areata, by posting their own wounding/needling stories and other relevant scientific information.
Otherwise, you wait around for medical science to patent ideas based loosely around underdeveloped scientific concepts, and have them placed in a nice neat package. Between politics and on-going science, I imagine you see the development of stem cell/hair growth promoting products in the next 5-10 years. And expect them to be cost-prohibitive at first.
I've included valid reading for those who might not understand the complex relationship between wounding, healing, stem cells, immunity etc. and hair growth.
New Hope For Baldness Treatment: Hair Follicles Created For First Time In Mouse Study
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 133023.htm
"We showed that wound healing triggered an embryonic state in the skin which made it receptive to receiving instructions from wnt proteins," says senior author George Cotsarelis, MD, Associate Professor of Dermatology. "The wnts are a network of proteins implicated in hair-follicle development."
Hair Follicle Stem Cells Contribute to Wound Healing
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 224113.htm
"Previous work by the Penn research team had outlined the hair-growth process to show that stem cells in the hair follicle "bulge" area generate new lower hair follicles, which in turn, generate new hair. Their latest finding-that these same stem cells play a key role in initiating wound healing-will help lay the foundation for designing more effective wound-healing strategies."
Stem Cells Offer Promise for Hair Growth
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 073634.htm
"Penn researchers suspected that stem cells located within the follicle bulge were responsible for hair growth.... Within four weeks, the transplanted cells made new hair follicles that produced new hair. "Now that we can isolate stem cells involved in hair growth, we can develop targets for manipulating hair growth"... The findings have implications not only for hair growth, but also for burn treatments. "The cells that we have isolated not only make hair follicles, but also can make other skin cells," says Cotsarelis. "These stem cells are there for your lifetime and have a huge capacity to proliferate and regenerate.""
Hairless triggers reactivation of hair growth by promoting Wnt signaling
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1253615
A role for Wnt signalling in self-renewal of haematopoietic stem cells
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 01593.html
Integration of Notch and Wnt signaling in hematopoietic stem cell maintenance
http://www.nature.com/ni/journal/v6/n3/abs/ni1164.html
More interesting possible topical/oral stem cell proliferators...
Fucoidan ingestion increases the expression of CXCR4 on human CD34+ cells
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17533053
"Oral fucoidan significantly amplified the CXCR4(+) HPC population. The ability to mobilize HPC using sulfated polysaccharides and mobilize more HPC with high levels of CXCR4 could be clinically valuable."
Mobilization of human CD34+ CD133+ and CD34+ CD133(-) stem cells in vivo by consumption of an extract from Aphanizomenon flos-aquae--related to modulation of CXCR4 expression by an L-selectin ligand?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765649
"AFA water extract contains a novel ligand for CD62L. It modulates CXCR4 expression on CD34+ bone marrow cells in vitro and triggers the mobilization of CD34+ CD133+ and CD34+ CD133(-) cells in vivo."
L-selectin stimulation enhances functional expression of surface CXCR4 in lymphocytes: implications for cellular activation during adhesion and migration
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.o ... 01/11/4245
Increase in Circulating SDF-1 after Treatment with Sulfated Glycans
http://www.annalsonline.org/cgi/content ... t/938/1/48
"SDF-1 is a potent chemoattractant for mature white blood cells and hemopoietic stem/progenitor cells (HPCs)....Our data offer a unique insight into the mechanism of sulfated glycan-induced mobilization and suggest a novel way of disturbing SDF-1 gradients between bone marrow and peripheral blood."
Trafficking of Normal Stem Cells and Metastasis of Cancer Stem Cells Involve Similar Mechanisms: Pivotal Role of the SDF-1–CXCR4
http://stemcells.alphamedpress.org/cgi/ ... type=HWCIT
Expression of Multiple Chondroitin/Dermatan Sulfotransferases in the Neurogenic Regions of the Embryonic and Adult Central Nervous System Implies That Complex Chondroitin Sulfates Have a Role in Neural Stem Cell Maintenance
http://stemcells.alphamedpress.org/cgi/ ... t/26/3/798
Proteoglycans guide SDF-1-induced migration of hematopoietic progenitor cells
http://www.jleukbio.org/cgi/reprint/72/2/353.pdf
Again, a cursory search revealed all of this, and will reveal more...
joseph49853
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IBM said:
Sorry, I'm not going to cede to any more requests. I mainly posted those pics to show the profound change in scalp pigmentation, and the double/triple grouping of new hair follicles... not for my credibility to be called into question. However, anyone here can feel free to post their pictures, if they are willing.
Again, what change? You can't show that there's a change without a before/after comparison. We're not calling your credibility into question, but merely seeking validation of your results. You don't want your face on here, fine edit out the face and show only the hair. It's not like you can collect money on this anyway since follica has patented the idea already. Might as well share what you know with us and help people if it actually works. Hell, I'm even interested in
trying it at this point. I was just looking for validation to make sure I wouldnt be wasting my time as there are millions of other methods out there that don't work. Get my drift?
joseph49853
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symbolx said:
You post private pictures and information and it opens a Pandora's box. And then the tenor of the conversation and focus changes. I don't see too many here posting pics, much less their real locations. Anyway, I have never been that obsessive to document my hairloss, except for what's written here, and don't plan on starting now. I won't be addressing this any further. Either you respect and understand it or don't.
And I have already posted a heck of a lot of information. Simply appreciate that it's all intuitively collected into a single place. There are also plenty of credible studies posted in this forum relating to hairgrowth and vitamin D3, green tea, pepper extract, caffeine etc. ... you just have to be intellectually curious enough to search it out. In combination these supplements have a very synergistic relationship. Just takes a little common sense and cohesiveness, something that modern science often lacks. Go through all the links. Whether it's a waste of your time is for you to decide.
BTW, I also would expect someone who frequents this site often enough knows the visible difference between unpigmented vellus and mature hair. Also the relationship between hair thickness, the development of sebaceous glands, and mature anagen stages.
masculineyourheart
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Hey Joseph,
Thanks a lot for taking the time to keep coming back to the forum and posting in spite of already finding a method of fighting hair loss that's working for you. Sorry for not replying to your PM before, I've been moving cities and haven't had much time to spend on the net.
I've been experimenting with needling myself over the past few weeks after reading information on it in this thread, mostly supplied by your good self, and am completely sold on it now. I don't have a roller so I've just been using thin drawing pins stuck into a hard eraser and jabbing that into my head, listening for the 'pop' and then moving onto the next victim. Since starting it's resulted in a complete change in my hair, after 3 weeks I've already got peach fuzz on my temples, but the best part is the overall quality of my hair which has gone from a dry mongrel bastard to luscious (love that word) soft hair, almost completely removed the painful itchy feeling and really improved the overall look and feel of my hair. It's the first time in months I've been confident to go out without a hat on.
I'm also experimenting with a few essential oils this week, I'm hoping this will help with healing so I can needle a bit more frequently and hopefully benefit regrowth at the same time. I haven't worked out anything too solid with this yet but I'm sure this has been helping out as well.
In defence of Joseph, he really has nothing more to prove to the other posters here. If he posts more photos or doesn't really shouldn't make any difference. What he's provided is a wealth of information which should provide anyone with a path to find a way to attack hair loss in their own way. This general attitude of blindly jumping onto whatever method has a photo of a dude's head, with and then without hair, without understanding what you're actually doing or trying to achieve is stupid and a waste of time. Do your own research and work this thing out.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Peace.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to keep coming back to the forum and posting in spite of already finding a method of fighting hair loss that's working for you. Sorry for not replying to your PM before, I've been moving cities and haven't had much time to spend on the net.
I've been experimenting with needling myself over the past few weeks after reading information on it in this thread, mostly supplied by your good self, and am completely sold on it now. I don't have a roller so I've just been using thin drawing pins stuck into a hard eraser and jabbing that into my head, listening for the 'pop' and then moving onto the next victim. Since starting it's resulted in a complete change in my hair, after 3 weeks I've already got peach fuzz on my temples, but the best part is the overall quality of my hair which has gone from a dry mongrel bastard to luscious (love that word) soft hair, almost completely removed the painful itchy feeling and really improved the overall look and feel of my hair. It's the first time in months I've been confident to go out without a hat on.
I'm also experimenting with a few essential oils this week, I'm hoping this will help with healing so I can needle a bit more frequently and hopefully benefit regrowth at the same time. I haven't worked out anything too solid with this yet but I'm sure this has been helping out as well.
In defence of Joseph, he really has nothing more to prove to the other posters here. If he posts more photos or doesn't really shouldn't make any difference. What he's provided is a wealth of information which should provide anyone with a path to find a way to attack hair loss in their own way. This general attitude of blindly jumping onto whatever method has a photo of a dude's head, with and then without hair, without understanding what you're actually doing or trying to achieve is stupid and a waste of time. Do your own research and work this thing out.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Peace.
You know it's cool that you guys are that knowledgeable about the science behind it but not everyone understands some of this complex medical information about Wnt signaling, etc. It would probably take me a few years to understand the science behind it. I could post a bunch of abstracts on electrical engineering and lead you on about the possibility of free energy(it does not exist btw) but I think it would piss you off more than anything because you have no prior knowledge about the subject and it would take you a few years to catch up.
So, you posted your topical concoction on here before but did not tell what proportions were used. I'll give it a try and document the process in an attempt to validate its efficacy. Maybe you don't have much to gain from it, but a lot of other people do. What do you say?
So, you posted your topical concoction on here before but did not tell what proportions were used. I'll give it a try and document the process in an attempt to validate its efficacy. Maybe you don't have much to gain from it, but a lot of other people do. What do you say?
aussiedavid
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I've decided to jump on the needling band-wagon as well. I live in Sydney and went and bought a dermaroller from a place here that makes them. I didn't get the wide version cause I only want to do my temporal region. Have used it for the past two nights.....it's definitely a bit painful, but manageable. I'm putting Tricomin on immediately after, followed by Xandrox 15% minoxidil solution. I've been on minoxidil for over 10 years now and I think my hair has become used to it. Hopefully I'll have some success with the needling/tricomin/xandrox combo.
billythekid
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aussiedavid, where did you buy your roller?
also what length are the needles?
also what length are the needles?