Starting Dutasteride Today- Wish Me Luck.

[spollardo]

I actually made a thread today about the whole “duta helps except in the worst areas” thing. I have recently noticed that the back of my head seems to have gotten thicker and I do grow more darker hairs around my hairline, but in the 7 months that I’ve been using duta, the top of my head has become increasingly worse. Whether or not it duta has sped that process up or it would have been like that regardless is anyone’s guess, but I can certainly say that I have not grown any new hair in my “pattern” zones.

I don't see how duta could have sped it up lol. Well, at least not outside of a shed which could be possible since you're in early days.

Some have it and some don’t. It feels like constant burning sensation on my scalp, itch is constantly moving up and down and when I scratch I get small white bulbs quite similar to pimples. Sometimes i get hair out that sticks together. Can see this in my thread here: https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...f-hair-sticking-together.114329/#post-1675461

Couple things about it. First, if you're itching quite badly I'd look at another potential cause first, such as a fungal infection (though not necessarily that). Second, do you know what the white bulb is? It's just the keratin debris from a follicle rearranging itself, it's nothing good or bad, just a part of the hair growth cycle. Also, if you grow two hairs from one follicle (as in your picture), it's normal for one of them to be a little smaller.

 

[countjulian]

I don't see how duta could have sped it up lol. Well, at least not outside of a shed which could be possible since you're in early days.

7 months is the early days?

 

[real kombo]

7 months is the early days?

For duasteride, I'd say so. I will preech it over and over, assess results after 1 full year.

 

[AnxiousAndy]

I don't see how duta could have sped it up lol. Well, at least not outside of a shed which could be possible since you're in early days.


Couple things about it. First, if you're itching quite badly I'd look at another potential cause first, such as a fungal infection (though not necessarily that). Second, do you know what the white bulb is? It's just the keratin debris from a follicle rearranging itself, it's nothing good or bad, just a part of the hair growth cycle. Also, if you grow two hairs from one follicle (as in your picture), it's normal for one of them to be a little smaller.

dutasteride can definitely speed things up, it happened to me but with finasteride! I thought it was due to the increase in testosterone but since being on Androcur ( which blocks testosterone completely ) I'm still losing my hair just as fast. The only positive thing I can say about it is that Androcur is the only thing I've tried which didn't further speed up my hair loss.. Hasn't helped at all yet though.

@real kombo How is dutasteride going for you so far? Noticed a decrease or increase of shedding yet?

@Georgie Have you ever tried Androcur?

 

[real kombo]

dutasteride can definitely speed things up, it happened to me but with finasteride! I thought it was due to the increase in testosterone but since being on Androcur ( which blocks testosterone completely ) I'm still losing my hair just as fast. The only positive thing I can say about it is that Androcur is the only thing I've tried which didn't further speed up my hair loss.. Hasn't helped at all yet though.

@real kombo How is dutasteride going for you so far? Noticed a decrease or increase of shedding yet?

@Georgie Have you ever tried Androcur?

Well sir, it may very well be all in my head as it's only been a little over 2 weeks, but I feel like my hair has stopped shedding. I'm no fool though, I know this is the calm before the storm. I expect a massive shed around the 2-month mark, and I expect it to last for months.....


Sorry the treatments didn't work out for you...it puts conventional wisdom into quite the conundrum. The theory about dutasteride raising test, if that's what caused increased hairloss on dutasteride, drugs that stop test should have cured you. I don't buy the idea that dutasteride drastically raises test.

Then there's the bogus idea that dutasteride could actually RAISE DHT... again, crazy. Otherwise it'd be a death sentence for those with prostate cancer, instead of an FDA approved drug for it.

Finally, the one i'm leaning towards.......EVERYONE'S GOTTA WAIT A YEAR XD

 

[spollardo]

7 months is the early days?

I'd call less than a year early days, it's certainly a lesser amount of time than most medics recommend you wait before assessing your response, and plenty of people see things get worse before they're better in that time frame. Just worth considering.

dutasteride can definitely speed things up, it happened to me but with finasteride! I thought it was due to the increase in testosterone but since being on Androcur ( which blocks testosterone completely ) I'm still losing my hair just as fast. The only positive thing I can say about it is that Androcur is the only thing I've tried which didn't further speed up my hair loss.. Hasn't helped at all yet though.

@real kombo How is dutasteride going for you so far? Noticed a decrease or increase of shedding yet?

@Georgie Have you ever tried Androcur?

There's no logical reason as to why dutasteride would speed up male pattern baldness. If you can explain one to me then I'm happy to hear it. Personally I think you might have a separate issue if you're still losing hair on that amount of anti androgens and you have the kind of itchiness you describe.

 

[AnxiousAndy]

Well sir, it may very well be all in my head as it's only been a little over 2 weeks, but I feel like my hair has stopped shedding. I'm no fool though, I know this is the calm before the storm. I expect a massive shed around the 2-month mark, and I expect it to last for months.....


Sorry the treatments didn't work out for you...it puts conventional wisdom into quite the conundrum. The theory about dutasteride raising test, if that's what caused increased hairloss on dutasteride, drugs that stop test should have cured you. I don't buy the idea that dutasteride drastically raises test.

Then there's the bogus idea that dutasteride could actually RAISE DHT... again, crazy. Otherwise it'd be a death sentence for those with prostate cancer, instead of an FDA approved drug for it.

Finally, the one i'm leaning towards.......EVERYONE'S GOTTA WAIT A YEAR XD

Good to hear, I don't think it's outlandish to think you can start seeing results after a couple of weeks.. Its rare but I'm sure it does happen.
Yea I have no idea what is causing my hairloss. Up until very recently I was sure it was androgen related, but given the fact my situation has not improved or stabilized I'm thinking that for some people Androgens play a lesser role in male pattern baldness. dutasteride definitely raises testosterone,because your T is not being converted into DHT there's a lot more of it floating around. I read that in some people it can boost up to over 100%!
I wouldn't call the idea of duta raising DHT bogus, I'm sure it's extremely rare but it probably does happen. Reverse reactions from drugs are a very real phenomenon. Also have you taken baseline pics of your hair?

I'd call less than a year early days, it's certainly a lesser amount of time than most medics recommend you wait before assessing your response, and plenty of people see things get worse before they're better in that time frame. Just worth considering.



There's no logical reason as to why dutasteride would speed up male pattern baldness. If you can explain one to me then I'm happy to hear it. Personally I think you might have a separate issue if you're still losing hair on that amount of anti androgens and you have the kind of itchiness you describe.

dutasteride can directly speed up male pattern baldness because of the massive boost in testosterone that is experienced due to the lack of T being converted into DHT. As we know DHT has a much high affinity to androgen receptors but I wouldn't call it unheard of to suggest that there are some people who have a higher affinity to testosterone instead.. This would cause your hair to miniaturize faster despite DHT inhibition. Another cause could be indirectly caused by dutasteride, which is androgen receptor upregulation caused by Reflex Hyperandrogenicity. Obviously finasteride could also cause this but to a lesser degree.. I'm positive I do not have a separate issue as I have textbook male pattern baldness, I've got a noticeable receding hairline and recently my crown has started to thin, both characteristic hallmarks of male pattern baldness. Also my itchiness is alot less so I'm not sure where you read that bit?
I used to think, before I started treatment that those who claimed finasteride/dutasteride sped up their balding were hypochondriacs and even if it didn't stop the process it would have at least slowed it down.. Well that was all before the very same thing happened to me. Some days I still can't believe it, and I can't believe not even a powerful anti androgen like Androcur won't even slow it down. Just because it doesn't make total sense doesn't mean it can't happen. We understand very little about male pattern baldness.. We don't even know why minoxidil regrows hair for god's sake! I don't know if you are on finasteride/dutasteride but if you are considering it, pray it doesn't happen to you. It sucks.

 

[spollardo]

dutasteride can directly speed up male pattern baldness because of the massive boost in testosterone that is experienced due to the lack of T being converted into DHT. As we know DHT has a much high affinity to androgen receptors but I wouldn't call it unheard of to suggest that there are some people who have a higher affinity to testosterone instead.. This would cause your hair to miniaturize faster despite DHT inhibition. Another cause could be indirectly caused by dutasteride, which is androgen receptor upregulation caused by Reflex Hyperandrogenicity. Obviously finasteride could also cause this but to a lesser degree.. I'm positive I do not have a separate issue as I have textbook male pattern baldness, I've got a noticeable receding hairline and recently my crown has started to thin, both characteristic hallmarks of male pattern baldness. Also my itchiness is alot less so I'm not sure where you read that bit?
I used to think, before I started treatment that those who claimed finasteride/dutasteride sped up their balding were hypochondriacs and even if it didn't stop the process it would have at least slowed it down.. Well that was all before the very same thing happened to me. Some days I still can't believe it, and I can't believe not even a powerful anti androgen like Androcur won't even slow it down. Just because it doesn't make total sense doesn't mean it can't happen. We understand very little about male pattern baldness.. We don't even know why minoxidil regrows hair for god's sake! I don't think if you are on finasteride/dutasteride but if you are considering it, pray it doesn't happen to you. It sucks.

It's can't be to do with affinity DHT is a more potent AR agonist, and since it's autocrine you'd only be reducing androgen activity in any particular tissue by taking a 5ar inhibitor.

Also "reflex hyperandrogenicity" is not actually a legitimate concern. This is only something spoken about on hair loss forums and never mentioned in regard to studies or comments on BPH's treatment with finateride or dutasteride, for example. And nothing finasteride or duta does is related to the reasons for a possibility for drug-induced hyperandrogenism. Same with the idea that other DHT/androgen related conditions could be somehow exacerbated instead of improved by increased testosterone as a result of lowered DHT conversion.

We may not understand the exact reasons for minoxidil giving regrowth but most are sure it's related to it being something like a PGE analogue... I'm not sure what's going on with your hair anyway, have you had a hormone panel done to see how you're responding to medication out of interest?

 

[AnxiousAndy]

It's can't be to do with affinity DHT is a more potent AR agonist, and since it's autocrine you'd only be reducing androgen activity in any particular tissue by taking a 5ar inhibitor.

Also "reflex hyperandrogenicity" is not actually a legitimate concern. This is only something spoken about on hair loss forums and never mentioned in regard to studies or comments on BPH's treatment with finateride or dutasteride, for example. And nothing finasteride or duta does is related to the reasons for a possibility for drug-induced hyperandrogenism. Same with the idea that other DHT/androgen related conditions could be somehow exacerbated instead of improved by increased testosterone as a result of lowered DHT conversion.

We may not understand the exact reasons for minoxidil giving regrowth but most are sure it's related to it being something like a PGE analogue... I'm not sure what's going on with your hair anyway, have you had a hormone panel done to see how you're responding to medication out of interest?

Its not a legitimate concern? How ignorant of you to say so.. Just because it hasn't been scientifically documented does not mean its not a real concern, its very real. I don't believe I'm suffering from it but many members here who do would fight to the death to prove otherwise. I have not had any hormonal tests done as I suffer from extreme social anxiety and rarely leave the house. I can't even go to the hospital to refill my prescription for my medications as its that bad. Despite not having my hormonal information I am still fairly confident my DHT and testosterone are within or below female ranges as I have a variety of symptoms which suggest so. No libido, No sperm, infertility, gyno and mild fat redistribution to name a few. I would love to find out what's wrong with my hair.. But I really have no idea. finasteride accelerated my recession which would point to an increase of testosterone but having blocked testosterone completely it hasn't helped at all. I'm completely stumped as to why this has happened. If a drug which alters hormones made things worse then why by removing them completely has my situation not improved? We know a lack of androgens is good for hair as 99.9% of prepubescent children do not suffer from or develop male pattern baldness until puberty.
I may see if I can get a home visit scheduled to take my blood work because there's no way I can sit in a hospital waiting room with so many people.

 

[spollardo]

Its not a legitimate concern? How ignorant of you to say so.. Just because it hasn't been scientifically documented does not mean its not a real concern, its very real. I don't believe I'm suffering from it but many members here who do would fight to the death to prove otherwise. I have not had any hormonal tests done as I suffer from extreme social anxiety and rarely leave the house. I can't even go to the hospital to refill my prescription for my medications as its that bad. Despite not having my hormonal information I am still fairly confident my DHT and testosterone are within or below female ranges as I have a variety of symptoms which suggest so. No libido, No sperm, infertility, gyno and mild fat redistribution to name a few. I would love to find out what's wrong with my hair.. But I really have no idea. finasteride accelerated my recession which would point to an increase of testosterone but having blocked testosterone completely it hasn't helped at all. I'm completely stumped as to why this has happened. If a drug which alters hormones made things worse then why by removing them completely has my situation not improved? We know a lack of androgens is good for hair as 99.9% of prepubescent children do not suffer from or develop male pattern baldness until puberty.
I may see if I can get a home visit scheduled to take my blood work because there's no way I can sit in a hospital waiting room with so many people.

You say potato... I think it's ignorant of people to say that it is lol.

Yeah your condition is an interesting one. I hope you figure it out and that I can check back and see what you find out one day. How long have you been doing your current routine? Could just be a time issue?

 

[Retinoid]

Its not a legitimate concern? How ignorant of you to say so.. Just because it hasn't been scientifically documented does not mean its not a real concern, its very real. I don't believe I'm suffering from it but many members here who do would fight to the death to prove otherwise. I have not had any hormonal tests done as I suffer from extreme social anxiety and rarely leave the house. I can't even go to the hospital to refill my prescription for my medications as its that bad. Despite not having my hormonal information I am still fairly confident my DHT and testosterone are within or below female ranges as I have a variety of symptoms which suggest so. No libido, No sperm, infertility, gyno and mild fat redistribution to name a few. I would love to find out what's wrong with my hair.. But I really have no idea. finasteride accelerated my recession which would point to an increase of testosterone but having blocked testosterone completely it hasn't helped at all. I'm completely stumped as to why this has happened. If a drug which alters hormones made things worse then why by removing them completely has my situation not improved? We know a lack of androgens is good for hair as 99.9% of prepubescent children do not suffer from or develop male pattern baldness until puberty.
I may see if I can get a home visit scheduled to take my blood work because there's no way I can sit in a hospital waiting room with so many people.

You say most prepubescent children do not have male pattern baldness but a lot of babies, kids under 3, have male pattern baldness patterned hair. Which tells me it isn't JUST reduce Androgens to 0, then you will be fine.

 

[spollardo]

You say most prepubescent children do not have male pattern baldness but a lot of babies, kids under 3, have male pattern baldness patterned hair. Which tells me it isn't JUST reduce Androgens to 0, then you will be fine.

Androgenetic Alopecia is hormonal, but androgens aren't the only hormones that affect hair growth. It's also to do with estrogen, and estrogen:androgen ratio. It's most likely actually that the reason babies lose their hair is because they have higher estrogen coming out of the womb (pregnant women have higher estrogen levels that they supply to the child). Once that exogenous estrogen supply cuts off, you have a temporary hormonal imbalance that causes the Androgenetic Alopecia style hair loss.

 

[Retinoid]

Androgenetic Alopecia is hormonal, but androgens aren't the only hormones that affect hair growth. It's also to do with estrogen, and estrogen:androgen ratio. It's most likely actually that the reason babies lose their hair is because they have higher estrogen coming out of the womb (pregnant women have higher estrogen levels that they supply to the child). Once that exogenous estrogen supply cuts off, you have a temporary hormonal imbalance that causes the Androgenetic Alopecia style hair loss.

What if it wasn't hormonal and it was the scalp itself that develops when they become toddlers to then allow growth more uniformly? I have heard of the hormone imbalance theory for babies with male pattern baldness styled hair loss and I am not convinced. There needs to be more research done on the actual structural changes that occurs in the scalp.

 

[spollardo]

What if it wasn't hormonal and it was the scalp itself that develops when they become toddlers to then allow growth more uniformly? I have heard of the hormone imbalance theory for babies with male pattern baldness styled hair loss and I am not convinced. There needs to be more research done on the actual structural changes that occurs in the scalp.

I should've said that it's really just a consideration, and not a researched theory, but I think it's pretty likely at least partially hormonal given the pattern. I can see the multi-factorial explanation though, with changes in skull shape/structure resulting in changes to their hair too

 

[Retinoid]

I should've said that it's really just a consideration, and not a researched theory, but I think it's pretty likely at least partially hormonal given the pattern. I can see the multi-factorial explanation though, with changes in skull shape/structure resulting in changes to their hair too

I think the changes in the scalp are important factors in this disorder. Wish there was more research into this instead of drugs targeting hormones or inflammatory chemicals which may be in response to these very changes.

 

[spollardo]

I think the changes in the scalp are important factors in this disorder. Wish there was more research into this instead of drugs targeting hormones or inflammatory chemicals which may be in response to these very changes.

Sorry, I was talking specifically about babies. I don't see how that could be an issue when you're an adult.

 

[Endmymisery]

Wasn't finasteride working for you? Why switch over to dutasteride if the cause of the recent shed was from minoxidil?

 

[AnxiousAndy]

You say most prepubescent children do not have male pattern baldness but a lot of babies, kids under 3, have male pattern baldness patterned hair. Which tells me it isn't JUST reduce Androgens to 0, then you will be fine.

I wasn't talking about babies. Can't say I've seen any with male pattern baldness either.. Its obviously not just androgens, I would have at least stopped balding if that were the case. I really need to figure out what else can help my hair that works by a different mechanism instead of anti androgens and minoxidil.

 

[Nostro100]

Even tho this doesnt answer the mistery of why duta/finasteride can cause exponential hairloss to certain people, let me just put it on the table.

http://www.follacure.com/t/dutasteride
So, using dutasteride is lowering tons of DHT but what about PGD2?

Found the answer here: https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-main-cause-for-mens-hair-loss-the-PGD2-enzyme-or-DHT

In short they say this to a question that it's in that link:
"Because DHT triggers PGDS production, at least that’s the theory. PGDS or prostaglandin d synthase is the enzyme that catalyzes PGD2 production, lower DHT levels and you indirectly lower PGD2 levels as well."

About DHT,, I think everyone in this forum should read the wikipedia page of it. I say this because I tought I saw something contraditory here in this thread and on that page and that's the level of testosterone rising up as one lowers dht.

From wikipedia: "DHT is synthesized irreversibly from testosterone by the enzyme 5α-reductase.This occurs in various tissues including the genitals (penis, scrotum, clitoris, labia majora),prostate gland, skin, hair follicles, liver, and brain. Around 5 to 7% of testosterone undergoes 5α-reduction into DHT, and approximately 200 to 300 μg of DHT is synthesized in the body per day. Most DHT is produced in peripheral tissues like the skin and liver, whereas most circulating DHT originates specifically from the liver. The testes and prostate gland contribute relatively little to concentrations of DHT in circulation."

What I understand from that is that if you completly block all DHT production, then, you would be rising your testosterone "Arround 5 to 7%" and not a massive quantity from what I saw. Another interesting thing is that if DHT is formed in hair folicules, then that explaines why topical treatments have such success (massive amounts of anti androgens on the hair follicle may do the trick)

It's said too that people who take dutasteride get less oil in their skin (which is a personal problem of mine, America would love to invade my skin...JK ) but what do you guys have to say about this particular "good" side effect? (true or false?)

PS: srr for the long post

 

[real kombo]

Yes, for 5 months. Hairline got destroyed & I’m shedding all over the head. Itch is still there. I’m not gonna lie, it’s bad. I will go through it for 6 months but probably will drop it and try finasteride with ru or cb. I still believe duta is better drug for majority just not for me.

Hey man, any update on your dutasteride usage? Still awful?