There's A Big, Enviromental Factor In Baldness, And It's Still Undiscovered.

[Afro_Vacancy]

And what the hell David?

I thought you were a man of science?!

I am, I trust measurement. Here you go:
The Contribution of Endogenous and Exogenous Factors to Male Alopecia: A Study of Identical Twins
http://journals.lww.com/plasreconsu...=2013&issue=05000&article=00041&type=abstract

In general, nearly everything you see about a person is a result of gene-environment interactions. Lung cancer and smoking is a good example, it depends on whether or not you smoke and also on your genetic predisposition to lung cancer.

How about the fact that there are men with awful lifestyles, diets, that do drugs, meth and what not, and die with a thick NW1 at the age of 75.

How about the fact that there are men who smoke two packs a day and don't get lung cancer and live to 85?

Same difference. Gene-environment interactions. All we can hope to measure are trends.

 

[buckthorn]

How about the fact that there are men with awful lifestyles, diets, that do drugs, meth and what not, and die with a thick NW1 at the age of 75.

And there are men who have perfect lifestyles, diets, exercise regularly, never had one drop of alcohol and become NW6 at the age of 25.

Seriously?! It's 2016 and people are still believing male pattern baldness isn't 100% genetic? Some things will never change it seems.

You missed my point -

Androgenetic Alopecia is Androgenetic Alopecia and the sufferer of it will bald no matter what. HOWEVER, I personally believe it's very possible to speed it up, through lifestyle choices that may drastically negatively impact your body.

I personally know this for fact.

tear my ACL - Telogen Effluvium. Depression, anxiety ridden sleeplessness, drinking all day - Telogen Effluvium. Surgery -Telogen Effluvium.

So, how do we know that their aren't more mild forms of Telogen Effluvium that may take form when there are other physiological imbalances from drinking, smoking, eating poorly, etc... ?? How do we really know?

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

this is a very poorly understood aspect of Androgenetic Alopecia. It's hard to argue for it and hard to argue against it.

all I have to say in regards to this, is think about the "rules" of telogen effluvium.

Your body doesn't give two sh*ts about your hair, anywhere.

When there is a significant physiological insult, it will send a greater number of follicles into telogen to divert blood (carrying O2 and nutrients) to the areas of stress/damage.

This makes perfect sense in some respects. WHY allow arteries to feed useless hair follicles when there are greater physiological tasks. i.e. repairing damaged liver and lung tissues.

Given that twin study, as well as various correlations identified in the literature, I have absolutely no doubt that lifestyle can have a significant impact on male pattern baldness.

The issue we're stuck with is that it's impossible for us to know which lifestyle measures will have an impact, and how significant an impact these will have, on which people, and so on. There are very few researchers working in the area, so both the theory and the clinical results are of very low quality.

It's like trying to build a spaceship with 19th century physics and engineering. I'm sure there'd be someone like Fred saying "You can't build a spaceship !!!! 100% genetics !!!!" but the actual problem is the lack of knowledge, not the impossibility of knowledge. If the corruption from the pharmaceutical companies, the pseudo-scientists, and supplement manufacturers were replaced with real science we would probably receive a lot of constructive guidance within a period of five to ten years, involving rigorous trials of large numbers of subjects spanning an observational period of two years.

Instead, what we should expect is a new study being published in 3 months in The Journal of Herbal Trichology, where they followed 17 South Korean men over 8 weeks, 11 of them completed the study protocol of eating 200 mg of Tazmanian cherry extract every morning, and they found hair regrowth of 14 +/- 14%, p-value = 0.036.

 

[buckthorn]

Instead, what we should expect is a new study being published in 3 months in The Journal of Herbal Trichology, where they followed 17 South Korean men over 8 weeks, 11 of them completed the study protocol of eating 200 mg of Tazmanian cherry extract every morning, and they found hair regrowth of 14 +/- 14%, p-value = 0.036.

Diet could be a huge factor in progression of male pattern baldness, I agree. Diet is not a huge factor in ELIMINATION of male pattern baldness, no... but in progression I think so. Most people on here readily acknowledge the fact that inflammatory responses within scalp tissue can speed up Androgenetic Alopecia... and these are the SAME people that laugh when we talk about diet... well...

 

[resu]

It's known from studies of identical twins that environmental factors such as body weight, smoking habits, alcohol habits, and so on correlate with male pattern baldness. It's not just genetics.

However, what's not measured is how strong these environmental factors are, and how exactly they function.

You missed my point -

Androgenetic Alopecia is Androgenetic Alopecia and the sufferer of it will bald no matter what. HOWEVER, I personally believe it's very possible to speed it up, through lifestyle choices that may drastically negatively impact your body.

I personally know this for fact.

tear my ACL - Telogen Effluvium. Depression, anxiety ridden sleeplessness, drinking all day - Telogen Effluvium. Surgery -Telogen Effluvium.

So, how do we know that their aren't more mild forms of Telogen Effluvium that may take form when there are other physiological imbalances from drinking, smoking, eating poorly, etc... ?? How do we really know?

With Androgenetic Alopecia follicles miniaturize on the next cycle, who's to say an external factor can't speed these cycles? If you comb the hair in a certain direction it makes the follicles which are already weak even more inflamed because you're pulling them, traction alopecia is a factor to take into consideration. I used to comb my hair almost at the middle and the follicles in that line are ghosted, even after more than 18 years of not parting the hair in any way.

 

[SmoothSailing]

No.

And what the hell David?

I thought you were a man of science?!

Ah well, I guess it's because you're not bald yet.

Once you reach NW5, you'll stop putting faith in those absurd claims.

My grandfather started balding at 17. Was bald at 23.

My father started balding at 17. Was bald at 23.

I started balding at 17. Was bald at 23.

And we all had completely different lifestyles and diets.

Male pattern baldness is 100% genetic.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

Do you believe the studies done showing that poor diet, smoking and alcohol abuse can cause hair loss or thinning?

If you are genetically predisposed to bald at 30 but you abuse alcohol for years you might bald at 25.


This doesn't mean that everyone who abuses alcohol will be bald at 25, so an example of some homeless guys you've seen isn't proof that I'm wrong.

 

[barfacan]

I tend to agree with David. Lack of knowledge is what's really holding everything back. The best "official" connection we have is DHT's negative effect on the hair follicle (the final culprit being kind of ongoing autoimmune or immune mediated inflammatory response ). There is definitely a very strong genetic component to male pattern baldness, but we just have no meaningful predictive markers besides looking at our relatives thinning scalps. We have blood work 'ranges' correlated with heart disease, auto immune conditions, arthritis, but nothing for male pattern baldness. But i DO believe that if we ever find out what the real driving cause of male pattern baldness is, it will probably be very in sync with other degenerative conditions.

There are just not enough studies being conducted to have a better picture, i'd say a major hurdle is making the market movers aware that MALE pattern baldness is not so much a 'cosmetic issue' but more so a psychological one, with the prospect of immense profits. And on the psychological aspect, i do think ever increasing superficiality in society can be a good thing, it simply means more of the afflicted will begin to seek treatment, which breaks equilibrium and will lead to corporations scrambling for a solution. Forums like this one are an excellent 'megaphone' to get the message out. The sh*t won't go on forever if you let your voice be heard. And even if you don't have any hair at 25, having it at 35 or 45 will still be f*****g sweet, so don't use that as an excuse.


There are probably some people out there who will simply go bald no matter what, just like there are people destined for heart disease and cancer. First we have to try to save the majority, then figure out the root cause and eradicate it. Praying for one of shiseido, histogen, follica, replicel to at least provide a bridge. Im sure plenty of people are ready to throw lots of money at them.


tl;dr my psychology is on the line; want hair, will pay.

 

[That Guy]

My dad is like, Norwood 1.5 (has been since his 20s) at most and he's almost 60; Grandpa, on mom's side, is NW1 and he's approaching 70; maternal great grandfather died at 92 with only thinning that came from age.

I am Norwood 2 - 2.5 with diffuse thinning at 24.

For what's it worth, I don't think genetics (as akin to heart disease or other illness) have nearly as much to do with male pattern baldness as we believe they do. My family has basically no history of male pattern baldness and I somehow seem to have got the worst of it. I would not at all be surprised that it is a disease which has developed as a result of evolution. One of the theories as to why humans lost most of their body hair (aside from sexual selection that preferred females with less body hair), is that it eliminated many body parasites, we don't need it for warmth, and hair would become sun damaged as a result of moving out of the jungle and into the savannah. Since primarily men were the hunters, they would have been out in the sun more than anyone else. Since humans around this time would have all had dark-pigmented skin, that would have been preferential for protecting against the sun rather than hair, because (again) hair can carry parasites and become sun damaged.

and what part of a bipedal creature's head, out hunting in the beating sun would be most exposed to ultraviolet light? The areas affected by male pattern baldness, of course.

I don't think there has been a study on this pertaining to Androgenetic Alopecia ever done, but I would not be surprised if one day we discover a link between the two.

 

[buckthorn]

I don't think genetics (as akin to heart disease or other illness) have nearly as much to do with male pattern baldness as we believe they do.

I may be missing something in your post, but I personally believe that male pattern baldness is ALL genetics. I mean, well anything pertaining to your individual gene expression is genetics, but aside from that, it is definitely familial.

My brothers and I have the EXACT same male pattern baldness pattern, like down to the friggin hair. It's almost scary.

When I had Telogen Effluvium for the first time, in summer of 2014, I noticed my right temple became horribly diffused. When I met my older brother for dinner, it was like looking in a mirror. Decently solid right hair line, and diffused thinning right behind it.

We both have the exact same genetics when it comes to Androgenetic Alopecia. A bout of telogen effluvium, however, threw my hair loss like three years into the future.

 

[Rudiger]

You missed my point -

Androgenetic Alopecia is Androgenetic Alopecia and the sufferer of it will bald no matter what. HOWEVER, I personally believe it's very possible to speed it up, through lifestyle choices that may drastically negatively impact your body.

I liked David's posts too but this sums it up perfectly, I mean it's common sense really (though you describe it great) that just because something is largely genetic, doesn't meant that it can only be genetic. As you also said, lifestyle choices won't eradicate male pattern baldness, but there is at least scientifically a great amount of reasons to feel poor lifestyle choices may exacerbate it. I mean I'm not saying this is 100% concrete science off the back of some studies, but you'd have to be really ignorant to dismiss the idea completely or find it hilarious that anyone could actually believe it's possible.

I don't think your point was missed either, just intentionally not acknowledged.

 

[That Guy]

I may be missing something in your post, but I personally believe that male pattern baldness is ALL genetics. I mean, well anything pertaining to your individual gene expression is genetics, but aside from that, it is definitely familial.

My brothers and I have the EXACT same male pattern baldness pattern, like down to the friggin hair. It's almost scary.

When I had Telogen Effluvium for the first time, in summer of 2014, I noticed my right temple became horribly diffused. When I met my older brother for dinner, it was like looking in a mirror. Decently solid right hair line, and diffused thinning right behind it.

We both have the exact same genetics when it comes to Androgenetic Alopecia. A bout of telogen effluvium, however, threw my hair loss like three years into the future.

My point is this:

Say you were to trace hereditary heart disease in a family. You would eventually find a cutoff point where no one seemed to have it before them; you can find the person whose genes likely introduced it. If you managed to find someone from 200 years back in your family who had it, but few or no one else did, that is not conclusive evidence that you genetically inherited it.

It's like the old myth of "your mother's side of the family is where baldness comes from". Well, just about no one of close ancestry or relation on either side of my family has baldness to any severe degree.

Male-pattern baldness has afflicted humans regularly across the globe since basically the dawn of homo sapien. To me, that suggests this is different from hereditary diseases and is instead a human characteristic. Even statistically, it suggests that men who don't bald are an irregularity. In something like heart disease, the disease itself is an irregularity. I don't think you'll find any family on Earth where a great percentage of males didn't have male pattern baldness.

If that makes sense.

 

[Rudiger]

Ok then since I lost all my hair between the age of 16 and 22, it must have been my terrible lifestyle I guess?

No Fred, it wasn't your terrible lifestyle choices, to be bald that early it was hugely because of genetics. Like I said, a large part of male pattern baldness is down to genetics, but for many who bald later on, poor lifestyle choices will exacerbate it.

Everything becomes clear once you get irrational and angry, presumptuous (I don't make any intentional healthy lifestyle choices like veggie shakes in an attempt to cure hair loss), you just revealed your whole agenda:

-Because you were bald early, and it was certainly hugely a genetic trait to go bald that young, you want to dismiss the idea that male pattern baldness can be at all influenced by lifestyle choices for everyone, despite science pointing at that possibility strongly, you won't even consider it because this is not relevant to you.

Further than that, you've focused on my post and ignored much more relevant points made by buckthorn and David, because they contradict what you write.

You have revealed a biased agenda which explains why you're dismissive for your own personal and selfish viewpoint, so for me that means you are not a reliable and consistent standpoint to be listened to and I won't be reading or replying to your posts on this topic any further.

 

[resu]

My point is this:

Say you were to trace hereditary heart disease in a family. You would eventually find a cutoff point where no one seemed to have it before them; you can find the person whose genes likely introduced it. If you managed to find someone from 200 years back in your family who had it, but few or no one else did, that is not conclusive evidence that you genetically inherited it.

It's like the old myth of "your mother's side of the family is where baldness comes from". Well, just about no one of close ancestry or relation on either side of my family has baldness to any severe degree.

Male-pattern baldness has afflicted humans regularly across the globe since basically the dawn of homo sapien. To me, that suggests this is different from hereditary diseases and is instead a human characteristic. Even statistically, it suggests that men who don't bald are an irregularity. In something like heart disease, the disease itself is an irregularity. I don't think you'll find any family on Earth where a great percentage of males didn't have male pattern baldness.

If that makes sense.

You can inherit genes from way back in your family line, even if just one ancestor had male pattern baldness that would be enough for you to potentially get it as well. What might be curious is if it's possible to trigger the male pattern baldness at will, if we knew what "switches" are pressed maybe we could keep them dormant without the need of gene editing or maybe the follicles really start miniaturizing at the presence of DHT but it seems to be by phases like how body hair is, at 14 you get hairy legs, then at 25 you get hair your chest and at 28 you get an hairy back while others get at different times.

 

[That Guy]

You can inherit genes from way back in your family line, even if just one ancestor had male pattern baldness that would be enough for you to potentially get it as well. What might be curious is if it's possible to trigger the male pattern baldness at will, if we knew what "switches" are pressed maybe we could keep them dormant without the need of gene editing or maybe the follicles really start miniaturizing at the presence of DHT but it seems to be by phases like how body hair is, at 14 you get hairy legs, then at 25 you get hair your chest and at 28 you get an hairy back while others get at different times.

The gist of my point is that I believe the specifics of male pattern baldness are likely often hereditary, but the condition itself may very well be a characteristic of homo sapiens that simply doesn't effect some.

There are people out there like me who don't have a strong family history of it, but get it anyway; the flip side also exists. Your dad and his dad may have had a particular pattern, but there is no saying you'll go bald at all nor may you inherit their pattern(s) specifically. I am literally the only diffuse thinner in my entire family ever, as far as I am aware.

When the condition is so incredibly common and always has been, coupled with no obvious consistency in inheritance, I think it stands to reason that it's probably not "100%" genetically determined. The heredity of hairloss is poorly understood at best.

At the end of the day, though, IDGAF; I just want to see it cured.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Just because baldness has environmental cues doesn't mean that a nominally healthier lifestyle will have any impact.

An example is celiac disease. It's genetic, and turned on by environmental and lifestyle cues. Drinking more vegetable shakes and lifting weights at the gym is not going to solve your problem if you have celiac disease. Your problem is gluten (from the environment), which may be very hard to figure out. Grains are actually generally considered healthy (though some disagree).

Male patter baldness may in turn be more complicated. We're taught that it's a single thing: sensitivity of hair follicles to DHT. Maybe. There was that recent analyses posted showing that 47 genes are perhaps involved with male pattern baldness, 47. Maybe it's multiple things? Notice that people's heads show different balding patterns and balding progression patterns, and that some people don't respond to finasteride.

 

[FuianoMonster]

You also can't cure diabetes by just stopping insulin intake. You have to do MASSIVE lifestyle changes to cure diabetes, and it takes YEARS.

I bet in the past people said the same thing:
"Hurp durp diabete is fully genetic there's nothing you can do about it"

And yet here we are today, where scientists consider diabetes mainly a lifestyle disease.

Of course, some people are predisposed to diabetes and will get it no matter what. I myself have a friend that got diabetes when he was in early twenties and he always ate healthy!

Just like some people are going to bald no matter what, like Fred here.
But to disregard lifestyle causes for others would be silly.

I now have a theory. What if Androgenetic Alopecia is caused by climate?
I noticed that since we changed house, all of the men in my family including me, my father and my brother have started balding in the exact, same diffuse pattern.

My house is very humid and we get plenty of mold deposits when the cold seasons come. That might have played a factor in it.

 

[GoldenMane]

Genetics are the loaded gun. Age is what pulls the trigger. Lifestyle can speed it up but to what extent we'll never know.

I never ate my greens as a kid. Started smoking at 18, binge drank at times, was a little overweight at times, ate lots of red meat, perhaps did t get enough sunlight or exercise. Also had lots of stress due to college, social life and unemployment. These factors may have triggered my male pattern baldness earlier, or maybe not. Maybe It would have began early even had I been a tee totalling, sports loving, clean living Mormon...

 

[GoldenMane]

I doubt climate is a factor. People in cool temperate, somewhat humid N European climates and people in Arab countries have about the same prevalence, age of onset etc. When Jews moved from Eastern Europe which I believe is a bit drier and colder, to Israel, that was a massive climate shift, but baldness remained.

 

[FuianoMonster]

One of the scariest and weirdest things about Androgenetic Alopecia is how... synchronized is it.

I swear to god we all started balding at the same exact time in my family. My father baldness had stopped to NW2.3 for DECADES!

Then when we sons started balding, our father Androgenetic Alopecia unfroze. WTF.

 

[resu]

We'll get a cure before anyone is able to fully understand Androgenetic Alopecia.