What question have I avoided master?
Topical Dutasteride Case Assessment Thread
- Thread starter FilthyFrancis
- Start date
What question have I avoided master?
- Reaction score
- 83
Could you tell me & my keen friend sonictemples what vehicle you're currently using? I did try looking in the thread but it no avail
Here are some readings from another forum member measured with high pressure liquid chromatography
Serum DHT with no treatment = 645 pg/ml
Scalp DHT with no treatment = 6.49 pmol/g
Scalp DHT on Topical Dutasteride = 1,74 pmol/g
Serum DHT on Topical Dutasteride = 512 pg/ml
Btw Tom. I am not here to answer your questions or be your source of information, much less ones that have a simple and obvious answer.
Do your research, buy some topical dutasteride, test your blood come back and make yourself useful to others instead of demanding I answer every one of your questions.
Serum DHT with no treatment = 645 pg/ml
Scalp DHT with no treatment = 6.49 pmol/g
Scalp DHT on Topical Dutasteride = 1,74 pmol/g
Serum DHT on Topical Dutasteride = 512 pg/ml
Btw Tom. I am not here to answer your questions or be your source of information, much less ones that have a simple and obvious answer.
Do your research, buy some topical dutasteride, test your blood come back and make yourself useful to others instead of demanding I answer every one of your questions.
Thanks! I mean, I think that the general consensus is that oral and topical are about equally effective (atleast when talking about finasteride). It's just that the topical variant potentially reduces systemic absorption. Correct me if I am wrong, though
I use a hydrophilic solution with no alcohol and no propylene glycol. I get it custom made locally.
I have dermatitis and avoid anything that can irritate it.
Thanks. This is great information.
My question was if you could show us some definitive proof (e.g. pictures of the outcome of the measurement) that your scalp dht levels were reduced by %80 while your serum dht levels were only inhibited slightly. That would really be amazing!
- Reaction score
- 497
We all have to sacrifice a little bit comfort here. I recommend people to get DHT measurements prior to starting dutasteride. It's cheap too since I think hydroalcoholic solution is no worse than liposomal.
- Reaction score
- 497
Thank you, could you possibly share the ingredients for us to replicate? I can try the exact formula with blood levels checked
corkmeister
Established Member
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Does anyone happen to have the other study by Caserini et al? It's titled Single and repeated dose of finasteride topical solution in subjects with androgenetic alopecia: a pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic study. This may be interesting for us because I think it goes into the effects of single topical doses. If no one has it I'll take one for the team and buy it myself.
- Reaction score
- 497
Thanks for the amazing effort you guys are going into, we will make it guys!
- Reaction score
- 497
It's alive it's aliveeeee
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- 497
Just in case Hairlosstalk shuts down again, we should have somewhere to connect
https://chat.whatsapp.com/LjTqlJoE2fY6tTqqvpO8V1
I'll make Mustang admin and step down myself
https://chat.whatsapp.com/LjTqlJoE2fY6tTqqvpO8V1
I'll make Mustang admin and step down myself
Fantastic.
What about Telegram? Its a bit more anonymous I think
- Reaction score
- 497
Actually quite a few people joined it already so idrk. Had a discord prior
- Reaction score
- 81
This sounds much better considering the anonymity. I believe we will have a larger group with this option.
- Reaction score
- 497
There you go https://discord.gg/2fRxHk2
corkmeister
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 333
Great idea on the discord server. We may actually be on to something here (fingers crossed) and I think we would only benefit from a central location to share theory, ideas, bloodwork, and so forth. Let's be honest: hairloss seems to bring out the worst in people and it often leads to everyone just doing their own thing, which is such a shame. This thread has been a healthy combination of skepticism and positivity however and I think we should capitalize and expand on that further.
I've joined sonictemples's Discord and hope to see you all there. @vincent, if you're reading this, we'd love to see you there as well.
I've joined sonictemples's Discord and hope to see you all there. @vincent, if you're reading this, we'd love to see you there as well.
- Reaction score
- 481
Hi all,
I got contacted by a guy from Reddit (id: randomtard1), other than Vincent as I mentioned my reddit username (id: FranzTurtle) on this thread. This person, who was sadly unable to sign up at HairLossTalk.com, shared an interesting thesis:
https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10024622/1/11 oct 2017 PhD THESIS NORHAYATI.pdf
I will quote his conclusions:
"I'm still reading through the paper so haven't got any solid conclusions, but it does seem like a large part of the study focuses on the gel realising slowly to targeted areas. The vehicle does seem to differ slightly from what the italian pharmacy is using, but it seems that theres is still a viable solution.
Any conclusions I could come to would be infierior to those who wrote the paper though, here's one of the conclusions they came to for chapter 4, on page 188:
"For all formulations, no dutasteride was detectable by HPLC in the receptor chamber after 48 h of the permeation studies, suggesting no systemic exposure from these formulations in clinical studies. The highest permeation in the skin was found from ethanol-based solutions, then from DST-NLCs uncoated and coated with CSO-SA or CSO-LA."
page 196 has general conclusions which seems positive also.
"The main aim of this study has been achieved. DST-NLCs coated with CSO- SA or CSO-LA were successfully formulated and characterised; NLCs were stable and showed enhanced local drug delivery, reduced systemic exposure, slower drug release and reduced cytotoxicity.""
Chapter 3 and 4 are the most relevant.
To whomever cannot join this thread and wishes to contribute, I suggest you contact me on reddit - I will repost your content on the thread. Please do not spam me for questions and stuff but rather create a dedicated reddit post on the topic if needed.
I got contacted by a guy from Reddit (id: randomtard1), other than Vincent as I mentioned my reddit username (id: FranzTurtle) on this thread. This person, who was sadly unable to sign up at HairLossTalk.com, shared an interesting thesis:
https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10024622/1/11 oct 2017 PhD THESIS NORHAYATI.pdf
I will quote his conclusions:
"I'm still reading through the paper so haven't got any solid conclusions, but it does seem like a large part of the study focuses on the gel realising slowly to targeted areas. The vehicle does seem to differ slightly from what the italian pharmacy is using, but it seems that theres is still a viable solution.
Any conclusions I could come to would be infierior to those who wrote the paper though, here's one of the conclusions they came to for chapter 4, on page 188:
"For all formulations, no dutasteride was detectable by HPLC in the receptor chamber after 48 h of the permeation studies, suggesting no systemic exposure from these formulations in clinical studies. The highest permeation in the skin was found from ethanol-based solutions, then from DST-NLCs uncoated and coated with CSO-SA or CSO-LA."
page 196 has general conclusions which seems positive also.
"The main aim of this study has been achieved. DST-NLCs coated with CSO- SA or CSO-LA were successfully formulated and characterised; NLCs were stable and showed enhanced local drug delivery, reduced systemic exposure, slower drug release and reduced cytotoxicity.""
Chapter 3 and 4 are the most relevant.
To whomever cannot join this thread and wishes to contribute, I suggest you contact me on reddit - I will repost your content on the thread. Please do not spam me for questions and stuff but rather create a dedicated reddit post on the topic if needed.
corkmeister
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 333
I ran into that thesis a couple of weeks ago, it's interesting for sure and lends more credibility to the idea that topical dutasteride might actually be promising.
After reviewing all the literature I could find for last couple of weeks, this is basically what I'm thinking:
1. Lack of data and experience: Topical dutasteride has never really been properly researched or experimented with. There are some studies from India I believe, but they're not very reputable as far as I'm concerned. Essentially, finasteride has taken the spotlight, and even proper studies into topical finasteride - and it's effect on scalp and serum dht - are rare. There are the Polichem studies by Caserini et al, but it's not much. Exactly because the consensus in the literature is that finasteride and dutasteride taken orally are relatively safe and only rarely lead to side effects (which I personally no longer believe at this point), ways of reducing systemic exposure have never been the primary focus for researchers. Although there has been somewhat of a shift recently.
2. Dutaseride's half-life: Many people dismiss topical dutasteride as a possibility out of hand because they believe the half-life of 5-6 weeks is too long. However, as I've mentioned before, I believe the half-life is dose-dependent. Less dutasteride in serum leads to a quicker clearance rate.
3. Anecdotal reports of side-effects: Many people who have personally experimented with topical dutasteride note side effects. However, this is not surprising because they almost always apply it daily or every other day. Probably using regular vehicles. If it penetrates, it's likely that dutasteride starts accumulating, which actually increases the halflife in a way which wouldn't happen with finasteride. The body not only has to clear more dutasteride from the system, but the rate at which it is able to do so decreases as the amount in the blood increases. This leads to a snowball effect. The inevitable outcome is significant inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase type 1 & 2, and thus dht.
4. The 500 Dalton rule: The 500 Dalton rule is not a hard limit, but it does probably mean that dutasteride has more trouble permeating the skin. This may lead to reduced systemic absorption. Dutasteride may also have other characteristics we're not aware of that lead to reduced systemic absorption compared to finasteride.
5. Liposomal vehicles: It is possible that special vehicles, like liposomes, would reduce systemic absorption as well.
Taking all of the above into account, I'm hoping that dutasteride, taken topically, preferably with a special vehicle to reduce systemic absorption as much as possible, has a much greater effect in the scalp and follicles in relation to the rest of the body. The Polichem studies by Caserini et al show that this is the case for finasteride: localized application leads to a greater degree of dht-inhibition in the scalp compared to serum. I would expect this to be the same for dutasteride.
Unfortunately, I do not understand exactly how the body replenishes 5-alpha-reductase; and especially how the body and scalp compare to one another. I also do not know whether dutasteride behaves differently in serum compared to the skin. As far as I know, drugs have a different half-life in the skin. The body cannot act upon it as it would in the bloodstream. What I do know however is that 5-alpha-reductase turnover is a slow process. I'm hoping that Vincent's (and Mustang's) success is due to the fact that applying it every 7-10 days gives the body enough time to clear (most or all) dutasteride from the system, while 5-alpha-reductase in the scalp remains mostly inhibited due to the slow turnover rate of these enzymes. The key, then, is ensuring that only a miniscule amount hits the bloodstream. This is why I would recommend using a liposomal vehicle. As a safety precaution, it might also be wise to take a break every couple of months to guarantee that the body has time to clear everything from the system, so that the snowball effect doesn't occur.
Take all of the above with a grain of salt. I'm not an expert in this field and this is just the best I could come up with based on the literature as I was able to understand it. I hope that more people trying it out (and hopefully getting bloodwork) will shed more light on it.