Very Impressive Dermarolling And Minxodil Results - From Tressless

[HelixO]

I think we still need more information of needling (frequency, needle lenght etc.) and what else is needed for regrowth. We also dont know if possible regrowth is permanent or will hair fall after some time.

It can't be called permanent because the effect of DHT is still in play, however I think it can be safely said that microneedling helps regenerate hairs (and scalp) back to a youthful state. Meaning, someone could stop all treatment for a year or so, and still relatively maintain that hair, depending on how aggressive their male pattern baldness was. Then again, there's also a possible argument that microneedling could correct the underlying cause of male pattern baldness, such as if it was caused by inflammation.

It's pretty well accepted at this point that DHT isn't the direct cause of male pattern baldness, but more so DHT is a response to something occurring at the scalp level because it serves to function as an anti-inflammatory agent. There's a lot of people who have halted their male pattern baldness and even regrew *some* hair by taking certain Chinese herbs or simply switching to an all vegetable diet. It's why I believe that male pattern baldness is fundamentally caused by some sort of biochemical issue or something, but the exact nature of which is pure speculation. The same argument can be made about people with acne problems, which so many people have but is indicative of an unidentified health issue.


About the pain - I haven't used the Derminator2, but I understand it's highly effective and not as painful because the needles are very quick and do not spend that much time in the skin per cycle. Meaning it can be dragged across the skin without tearing or pulling on it horizontally. The maker of it did a test showing him dragging it across a piece of paper, and even he moved it very fast, the punctures were extremely clear with minimal tugging.

Awesome. I agree with the needling thing. Its the recovery between thats growing hair.

It's true that the genes associated with wound-healing also directly elevate hair growth factors, but it's more than that. Needling directly breaks up the fibrotic tissue which is known to be highly concentrated in balding scalps, and once this tissue is gone, that skin is naturally able to grow hairs far more easily, for up to many months longer. DHT itself only has a minor effect on hair loss because it's vasoconstriction effect that ultimately shifts more hairs out of the anagen phase. The actual cause of progressive balding overtime is due to the fibrotic tissue which slowly builds up as a direct result of DHT.

 

[rizaster]

From a long term investment standpoint it might be worth it to just order it and wait. I ended up getting the Dr Pen A6 and it seems to do the job just fine. I agree that microtearing might not be as big of a deal as they make it out to be. Regardless of the pen you go with, it’ll still tear way less than any roller.

Interestingly, derminator folks claim in their microtearing article it is almost impossible to cause tearing with a roller. However i disagree, if you try to change direction while rolling, i feel that would cause tearing

 

[Scootz]

Interestingly, derminator folks claim in their microtearing article it is almost impossible to cause tearing with a roller. However i disagree, if you try to change direction while rolling, i feel that would cause tearing

That’s a good point, you’re kind of limited to linear rolling motions if you’re using a roller. I could see how changing directions could cause some tearing. From that standpoint alone I think a pen is a little more forgiving

 

[Arrade]

You guys can buy a derma stamp for less than $20 - supposedly not tearing like dermaroller

 

[Arrade]

if it is actually generating NEW follicles then I think it will stay for a while because this hair has not been bombarded by dht for all its life especially during puberty. dht goes down with age while sensitivity goes up but this should not matter. follica thinks they are actually making completely new hair and they believe it will stay terminal hair for it's entire cycle so around 7 years. I gained 2 hairs that are dark on my hairline where it's very sensitive and they have not miniaturized unlike all the other hair that always used to be there. not sure though

I don't think it's necessary to make new hair follicles. To be honest, it sounds suprising that minor wounding of the skin could create whole new organs.
It's much more likely to just be healing the scalp environment, allowing proper function of the original hair follicles.

 

[Arrade]

It seems more and more likely now (to me) that it's local calcification/fibrosis that causes balding, and not systemic.
Now it may be that systemically calcium deposits are building in the entire body, but the fact you can fell the itch/burning in the scalp shows that the process is occuring locally.

In regards to the crunching noise, that may be the calcium deposits instead of the fibrosis. People use foam rollers and apparently that helps break down fibrosis, and you don't hear that noise.
Not that there isn't fibrosis as I think it's both.

 

[Arrade]

The question is rather, is it the deposits in the scalp, or specifically in the blood vessels alone that is the issue?

As you can see from the photo, the top of the scalp has very weak blood vessels; I wonder if genetics determine their layout.
There's obviously a difference in balding because some men lose vertex first or frontal first.
Is that by chance of calcification, or is it related to their unique blood flow schematics?

There's still a lot I don't understand

 

[HelixO]

I don't think it's necessary to make new hair follicles. To be honest, it sounds suprising that minor wounding of the skin could create whole new organs.
It's much more likely to just be healing the scalp environment, allowing proper function of the original hair follicles.

Actually it's been proven that microwounding induces WNT signaling as part of the healing process, which has been shown to directly contribute to "follicular neogenesis", as in the creation of new follicles. This was also proven in the PTD-DBM peptide study. The peptide was shown to promote the WNT signally by inhibiting the protein which blocked it. With it, they were able to generate dense regions of hair via that pathway, in areas where the old follicles had been intentionally destroyed.

The question however with only needling is how many of the follicles are new, and how many of them are just old ones being revived.

The question is rather, is it the deposits in the scalp, or specifically in the blood vessels alone that is the issue?

I haven't researched the calcification issue specifically, but my understanding of the theory was that it had to do with calcium buildup in the veins themselves, similar to arterial clogging. However, even simply fibrosis build up would restrict bloodflow in a relatively significant way. DHT itself acts as a vasoconstrictor as well (anti-inflammatory action)

 

[Arrade]

Actually it's been proven that microwounding induces WNT signaling as part of the healing process, which has been shown to directly contribute to "follicular neogenesis", as in the creation of new follicles. This was also proven in the PTD-DBM peptide study. The peptide was shown to promote the WNT signally by inhibiting the protein which blocked it. With it, they were able to generate dense regions of hair via that pathway, in areas where the old follicles had been intentionally destroyed.

The question however with only needling is how many of the follicles are new, and how many of them are just old ones being revived.



I haven't researched the calcification issue specifically, but my understanding of the theory was that it had to do with calcium buildup in the veins themselves, similar to arterial clogging. However, even simply fibrosis build up would restrict bloodflow in a relatively significant way. DHT itself acts as a vasoconstrictor as well (anti-inflammatory action)

Sorry, I typically think as calcification as both actual calcium and fibrosis, as atherosclerosis is the combination of calcium, fibrosis, cholesterol, and waste products into stiffening plaques. I definitely believe fibrosis is part of the issue.

I'm aware of PTD-DBM but he also used VPA to increase stem cells to make new hair follciles. So perhaps needling does create new hair follicles, forgive me for being biased. I remember Follicla stating follicle neo-genesis.

 

[Arrade]

Exam ples.—If a rat (weighing about 100 g.) is given a single oral dose of dihydrotachysterol, or "DHT" (e.g., 1 mg. in 0.5 ml. of corn oil), the subcutaneous injection of as little as 25 zg. of FeC13 (in 0.2 ml. of water) on the following day elicits a precipitous local deposition of calcium salts within the next two to three days. Macroscopically, this topical calciphylactic response is characterized by the appearance of a hard white patch at the site of injection. Histologically, we note calcareous incrustation of dermal and subcutaneous connective-tissue fibers, followed by reactive inflammatory infiltration (in which eosinophils and pseudoesosinophils predominate) and eventually sclerosis. If under similar circumstances, instead of the subcutaneous application of FeC13, 1 ml. of a ferric oxide saccharate, or "Fe-OS" (containing 20 mg. of metallic iron), is injected intravenously on the day of sensitization with DHT, a systemic calciphylactic syndrome results. Here, calcification occurs predominantly in the left auricular appendage of the heart, the subepicardial layers of the ventricular myocardium, the bile ducts, the duodenum and the renal cortex."

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82181672.pdf

Guys what I just posted above is from Hans Selye - what he described in the passage is that DHT caused calcium deposition in the soft tissues, including the heart and blood vessels.

 

[Arrade]

Hans Selye studied stress and his theory of General Adaptation is that stress induces calfication as a response.
Thus when men undergo stress is causes inflammation, which then DHT is sent to the sites of inflammation (the itching in the scalp)
and fibrosis/calcifcation occurs. It's clear to me now that this is somehow a local phenomena.

In our scalp tissues, increased androgens turn on more androgen receptors, and together, the increased DHT plus the increased androgen receptors results in calcification. Both DHT and androgen receptors must increase (not just one) for calcification to occur.

Interestingly, DHT plus androgen receptors also increase fibrosis in heart cells.

In other words, increased DHT + increased androgen receptors precede both calcification and fibrosis

https://perfecthairhealth.com/the-ultimate-hair-loss-flowchart-why-we-lose-our-hair/

 

[Wergi]

Actually it's been proven that microwounding induces WNT signaling as part of the healing process, which has been shown to directly contribute to "follicular neogenesis", as in the creation of new follicles. This was also proven in the PTD-DBM peptide study. The peptide was shown to promote the WNT signally by inhibiting the protein which blocked it. With it, they were able to generate dense regions of hair via that pathway, in areas where the old follicles had been intentionally destroyed.

The question however with only needling is how many of the follicles are new, and how many of them are just old ones being revived.



I haven't researched the calcification issue specifically, but my understanding of the theory was that it had to do with calcium buildup in the veins themselves, similar to arterial clogging. However, even simply fibrosis build up would restrict bloodflow in a relatively significant way. DHT itself acts as a vasoconstrictor as well (anti-inflammatory action)

If it's associated with calcium buildup why aren't we losing any hair on the sides, only on the top?

 

[Arrade]

The chart and above was from Rob at perfect hair health. I know I'm getting a bit off topic - but this integrates DHT into the calfication and fibrosis theory.
As Hans Selye points out, under stress tissues become inflammed. DHT is sent to these tissues and causes calcification and fibrosis, by acitvating receptors that do such and such. NO DHT = No activation. No androgen receptor Binding (like RU 58441) no balding.
It seems Testosterone and DHT can cause this.

However, it is much healthier for us to stop the stress (imbalanced hormones or psychological) and then address the calcifcation/fibrosis.
Needling does this, as well scalp massage or certain supplements.

 

[rizaster]

I have been taking vitamin k2 mk7, which is known to reverse arterial calcification, for the past 2 years purely for health reasons. cant really say if it has had any positive impact in my hair loss but i guess the possibility is there

 

[Arrade]

If it's associated with calcium buildup why aren't we losing any hair on the sides, only on the top?

I just posted a photo showing the top of the scalp has much weaker blood flow

It's still a good question though. Is it truly because of blood flow differences in the scalp?

I've deloped retrograde alopecia from High TSH so I'm losing some hair on the sides of my head and my neck.
I've also developed a momentary spell of Alopecia Barbare - bald spots and inflammation in my beard from too low estrogen. So my beard is also balding

 

[Arrade]

I have been taking vitamin k2 mk7, which is known to reverse arterial calcification, for the past 2 years purely for health reasons. cant really say if it has had any positive impact in my hair loss but i guess the possibility is there

https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...think-again-very-interesting-topic-28623.html

It's good that you take that.
This guy said he reversed his balding with mk7, vit D, magnesium, and nattokinase.

Have you reversed your artery issue? You should get it tested.
You should also use Vit D and magnesium, I'm not so sure mk7 is completely effective alone

 

[Arrade]

Sorry for the multiposts, it was just exciting seeing Hans Selye connect DHT to calfication, which I did not see before. I thought maybe it caused fibrosis because the syntethic version of DHT, oxandralone, is used to speed up wound healing in burn victims.
But now, from the head of micobiology response to stress, DHT causes soft tissue and blood vessel calcification.

 

[rizaster]

https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...think-again-very-interesting-topic-28623.html

It's good that you take that.
This guy said he reversed his balding with mk7, vit D, magnesium, and nattokinase.

Have you reversed your artery issue? You should get it tested.
You should also use Vit D and magnesium, I'm not so sure mk7 is completely effective alone

I should have clarified, im a clean bill of health, and extremely active. I take it pre emptively, i figure it cant hurt but you are correct, magnesium should be taken with it.

 

[Wergi]

Sorry for the multiposts, it was just exciting seeing Hans Selye connect DHT to calfication, which I did not see before. I thought maybe it caused fibrosis because the syntethic version of DHT, oxandralone, is used to speed up wound healing in burn victims.
But now, from the head of micobiology response to stress, DHT causes soft tissue and blood vessel calcification.

Second question: If DHT is promoting blood vessel calcification, why is DHT promoting beard growth?

 

[rizaster]

When I took the Vit D, mk7, and Magnesium after 3 weeks my scalp itch was gone and hair I lost on my sides was growing back in.
I stopped using it and more hair never regrew, didn't get to see if my hairline would regrow.

Also, if you are exercising too actively you could be increasing cortisol, which causes balding. Long distance running is especially bad. Meanwhile weightlifting can increase the speed of arterial calcification

All true, but the other benefits of lifting and jogging outweight balding for me. Weightlifting is shown to create stiffiness in young adults but not middle aged adults.

But perhaps ill try introducing magnesium. I did before for a little bit. I guess it cant hurt