Very Impressive Dermarolling And Minxodil Results - From Tressless

[HairSuit]

Maybe there is something to wounding a little more intently.I have also been getting regrowth. But 3 of my 8-9 sessions have been

So apparently the last two pages are a marathon of reports from non-responders. This is sad, but it was actually expected. Why? Because at this very same time mark (at around 3-5 months) people in the previous community trials in 2013-2014 started to report the same thing:
A considerable proportion of non responders complaining, and other moderate responders reporting mild regrowth (vellus hairs) that was eventually dismissed because it didn't have cosmetic significance. At that point, people started to quit.
Right now, we are going through the same point, and desperation is rising here. We are at the biggest risk of this trial, a mass quitting event.
Why do people start getting desperate at this time mark ? Because it is the time frame reported in the original Dhurat study.
But this point is also the one that should make a difference with respect to the past trials, this is the point in which we must man up and decide needle the heck out of our scalps for 12-18 months. Some other users did it, and it worked for them,now we most try to reproduce that and assess how it works in the long term, at large scale. We must go beyond the studies now.

Come on guys, just do not quit, please.

heres the tough thing..... if it were “just” maintaining at this point, I’d be all in. But good god, still going backwards at over four months...... now you’re taking the risk that you may be accelerating the loss (for whatever reason). It’s a gamble we don’t know the outcome of, and at the end of it, may be some flowing golden locks, or may be a giant pile of lost hair sitting on the floor. It really is a tough decision.

 

[Norwood Recovery]

Probably not. The only reason you see results here in the first place is due to minoxidil. minoxidil is stronger and works faster then almost everything else. I'm taking sandalore now, but i dont know how potent it is yet. minoxidil aging is reversable when you stop. There is no harm in trying to see if u r affected.

So I take it from what you say, the aging effects aren’t a universal thing? Some get those sides and others don’t?

 

[rizaster]

Almost 2 months in, i am fairly satisfied with results thus far. But thats also because i dont have an un realistic expectation of hair regrowth and understand how it works. Ive also gone through a regrowth phase initially when i started using minoxidil 5 years ago, it didnt do anything for me for 5 months , hair got worse and then literally felt like over night i had a full head of hair.

Heres how i know its working for me 1) my diffuse hair loss has filled in a bit and 2) i have already gone through 2 shedding cycles in the past 2 months. Usually i shed for 3 to 4 months straight and then i have about 2 weeks where shedding does not take place and i have slight growth. However , After each cycle, my hair is worse, meaning the shedding is stronger than the hair growth. This is how hair loss works. Hair regrowth happens in the opposite.

But as i said above, now ive already gone through two cycles, where i have shedding for about 2 weeks and then stabilized for about 2 weeks. Hopefully next, i will be stabilized for longer and longer...

 

[yayapapaya]

Maybe there is something to wounding a little more intently.I have also been getting regrowth. But 3 of my 8-9 sessions have been heavier. IE I see or wait for blood spots..... i have to take breaks between..... and it eventually hurts passing over the same spot. It is wounding. The purpose is to promote a growth response. Maybe mild redness just doesn’t cut it for some. Do I think we have to wound agressively all the time? No. But I don’t think it could hurt to throw in a more aggressive session once in a blue or once a month.

I still think for some heavier wounding will help create new follicles. To maintain we probably don't. But even follica is calling for "wounding in office" and "maybe needing subsequent visits". Sounds like they have a specific method to wound the skin intently. Remember guys like BBQ guy and also 2young (without minoxidil) had heavy wounds to stimulate regrowth.

In no way am i saying go that far ( i would never as well). I'm just saying maybe up the intensity a bit once in a while.

I have tried 'heavy' wounding before. What im doing now is more often regular wounding. So far id say wounding more often (1.5-2 times per week) works better for me.

 

[yayapapaya]

So I take it from what you say, the aging effects aren’t a universal thing? Some get those sides and others don’t?

What im saying is even if you do get sides, you will go back to normal when you stop minoxidil.

 

[layabout]

Touching on that comment made about mass quitting, I think it would be stupid for people to quit right now.

I mean, non-responders, you might as well continue dermarolling... because, well, there's no other treatments near lol

 

[CuredMouse]

I’m 2 needle sessions in and I’ve been using a sandalore mix for about 2 weeks, do you believe sandalore is a serviceable topical to use instead of minoxidil? I’m wary of minoxidil purported aging side effects.

Who's to say? Minoxidil is FDA approved to regrow hair, and sandalore (while seemingly powerful) is a new discovery, so new in fact that it isn't even a product, just an ingredient we aren't quite sure what to do with yet. So I'd say that while Minoxidil is certainly the safer and more well documented choice, sandalore has been gaining ground and for a certain group of people it seems to be fantastic. Honestly I would try both in an attempt to grow as much hair as quickly as possible before losing any more, then ween off minoxidil and maintain with a combination of sandalore and needling

 

[9982]

View attachment 112672 View attachment 112673

Too early for any major regrow yet but my existing hair looks healthier since using the roller. Been using rogaine for about a year, rolling for one month (weekly). I’m keeping up with the forum while continuing on my path.

On a side note has anybody tried it on the side of their head? I was going to see if it would help with grey hair but it was too painful for me, even with the lightest touch.

I'm doing the sides. Never had much in the way of temple points and by my 30s the temples were pretty much slick bald except for my sideburns.
I have fine vellus now along with some coloured vellus that weren't there before. It hurts but I do get blood dots and the apply minoxidil on it.
Nothing cosmetically relevant though.
I posted a picture of it some time ago.but here it is again along with a picture of my widows peak with those odd looking new white hairs sticking out

The first picture was tonight. 3 months into minoxidil, 2 months needling
Second picture was about 3 weeks ago. Not much change at the temples as of today so no need to take a new pic

 

[Drextez]

...... minoxidil + Microneedling is a marathon, not a race. it might take 3 years of treatement with consistency for you to get back to nw1. its not easy, its a lifestyle.

I'll keep saying this.^^^^^^^^^

you cant expect your fibrosis scalp skin to get better in a couple months, you need to keep doing sessions every 10-30 days and let it heal.

your damn scalp cant support follicles yet, you need to reverse all those years of scalp fibrosis with microneedling.

..................if you are impatient or your follicles really need it, add minoxidil once a day
(minoxidil works for 22hrs.....)

.................... also you might wanna add low frequency scalp massages

 

[Notreallyhere]

Grabbed this picture from a YouTube-Video. I think it's from one of the dermarolling studies? As you can see, they go really hard with this thing. Maybe this is absolutely necessary to get good results. Needling the sh*t out of your scalp.

IM sure i watched this vid from 2010 to 2013 and it was roller prp doctor who never updated and yes i think it this prp hence the blood

 

[Notreallyhere]

IM sure i watched this vid from 2010 to 2013 and it was roller prp doctor who never updated and yes i think it this prp hence the blood

wow! "The cost is from $1000 - 2000 per procedure" weekly would be a eye waterer

 

[nohairnolife]

Did some crazy sh*t go down with sandalore I don't want to spelunk through 100 pages of that

 

[Notreallyhere]

So I take it from what you say, the aging effects aren’t a universal thing? Some get those sides and others don’t?

i been on minoxidil 15 years when in 20s people thought i was a teen in 30s people think im 20s i could just be lucky tho i hover between 250 and 300lbs that could be bit minoxidil related i wonder tho

 

[Notreallyhere]

you tube full of needle vids from the past decade every one doing it different style and depths tho

 

[Notreallyhere]

Touching on that comment made about mass quitting, I think it would be stupid for people to quit right now.

I mean, non-responders, you might as well continue dermarolling... because, well, there's no other treatments near lol

i get the feeling some people this is a painful endurance i actively enjoy it even at 2.0mm as it scratches that itch so well finding a window to fire up the thunder machine that is the derminator is the hardest part for me

 

[BigOl'BaldingHead]

Hey,
I was wondering why people belief that microneedling helps with maintenance? Doesn't minoxidil eventually lose its effectiveness? So isn't it likely that most people will experience heavy shedding in two years or so? Or do you all subscribe to the fibrosis theory?

 

[coolio]

minoxidil mainly keeps the hairs in their growth stage longer. It doesn't really stop/fight the balding process, it just gives growth to offset it. This isn't all it does for hair but it seems to be where the majority of the hair gains come from.

Needling is different. The slight damage is not enough to really damage your follicles. (The follicles are several mm's deep.) But it's enough to make your skin kick into 'repair' mode. Some of that cellular activity ends up repairing your balding hairs a little bit. It's just a minor side effect of the process.



The whole subject of fibrosis in the follicles is overblown.

Take a balded human follicle and implant it onto an immune-suppressed mouse. The balded follicle starts enlarging back to size, and it easily shoves fibrosis out of the way as it emerges. Fibrosis is not holding down our balded hairs. The balded hairs are struggling to grow because certain cells they need are getting depleted. It's a big cascade of complicated sh*t within the skin tissue.

 

[Notreallyhere]

minoxidil mainly keeps the hairs in their growth stage longer. It doesn't really stop/fight the balding process, it just gives growth to offset it. This isn't all it does for hair but it seems to be where the majority of the hair gains come from.

Needling is different. The slight damage is not enough to really damage your follicles. (The follicles are several mm's deep.) But it's enough to make your skin kick into 'repair' mode. Some of that cellular activity ends up repairing your balding hairs a little bit. It's just a minor side effect of the process.



The whole subject of fibrosis in the follicles is overblown.

Take a balded human follicle and implant it onto an immune-suppressed mouse. The balded follicle starts enlarging back to size, and it easily shoves fibrosis out of the way as it emerges. Fibrosis is not holding down our balded hairs. The balded hairs are struggling to grow because certain cells they need are getting depleted. It's a big cascade of complicated sh*t within the skin tissue.

I was under impression some one proved minoxidil induced neogenisis and patented it in 2005 ish ?

 

[BigOl'BaldingHead]

minoxidil mainly keeps the hairs in their growth stage longer. It doesn't really stop/fight the balding process, it just gives growth to offset it. This isn't all it does for hair but it seems to be where the majority of the hair gains come from.

Needling is different. The slight damage is not enough to really damage your follicles. (The follicles are several mm's deep.) But it's enough to make your skin kick into 'repair' mode. Some of that cellular activity ends up repairing your balding hairs a little bit. It's just a minor side effect of the process.



The whole subject of fibrosis in the follicles is overblown.

Take a balded human follicle and implant it onto an immune-suppressed mouse. The balded follicle starts enlarging back to size, and it easily shoves fibrosis out of the way as it emerges. Fibrosis is not holding down our balded hairs. The balded hairs are struggling to grow because certain cells they need are getting depleted. It's a big cascade of complicated sh*t within the skin tissue.

So you do not belief in 'permanent' maintenance? Or do you belief that the wounding process can maintain your hair?

 

[LowHairLine]

The disappointment of some after not seeing results in the Indian study 3-month time frame is understandable. Many good points have already been raised about it and there are some more - let's try a "Brief History of Time" and hopefully raise some motivation


THE GOOD
SCI PROVEN: unlike many treatments here, needling is supported by 2+ SCI papers;
CHEAP & SAFE: pens / stamps + hygiene = cheaper & safer than FUE / CB / RU / Cypro etc.;
HUGE GAINS POSSIBLE: few treatments (if any) have the potential to generate the regrowth documented by the best HairLossTalk.com / BTT responders:

@74775446 (NON-responder to minoxidil alone)


@layabout (NON-responder to minoxidil alone)


@PrettyFly (NON-responder to needling for almost a year)


@Ludachris Batbak (maintained only w/ minoxidil alone)



THE BAD
HI-EFFORT: needling requires substantial effort / pain, motivated only by results - no early results = quitting;
MANY UNKNOWNS: there are many needling parameters we do not know the optimal value of:
Device? Depth? Duration? Frequency? minoxidil immediately or later?
REPEATABILITY:
Studies = needling by a PRO = repeatable every-time for everybody;
HairLossTalk.com Trial = needling by John Smith = random depth, duration, frequency, topicals, supplements etc. -
probably the main reason we are not achieving the "everybody improves in 3 months" study result;


THE WAY FORWARD
The studies / anecdotes have proven needling efficacy - what we need to address is THE BAD above:

@EFFORT: those who'd quit due to the lack of results, it makes sense doing it the @sportsguy97 way:
scrap most effort & keep 1 monthly wounding - you stay in the game (a proven one) and long term might have more gains than we currently expect from such regimen;

@UNKNOWNS: there are so many it's intimidating, but we do have some data:
the best early responders cannot be doing much wrong - or they wouldn't respond (!)

Yes, we are all different - but their regimens are a good place to start with, tweaking (as little as possible) to our needs - i.e.:
DEVICE = Pen / Derminator (@layabout & @74775446 & @Ludachris Batbak); rollers and stamps work(@2young2retire), but are too painful for many to reach depth & intensity;
DEPTH = 1.5mm (studies & @layabout & @Ludachris Batbak; @74775446 = 2mm, but said "might not have reached full depth");
DURATION = approx. 7-12 min w/pen (@layabout & @74775446 mentioned similar times);
INTENSITY = redness & few blood spots (@layabout & @74775446);
FREQUENCY = 7-10 days (indian study, @layabout, @Ludachris Batbak, @74775446); less frequently might do the trick, but might require more time = more quitters (remember - Indian weekly-needling study results are @3 months, but Chinese bi-Monthly-needling results are @6 months = twice the time);
MINOXIDIL = earlier / better results (studies, @layabout, @Ludachris Batbak, @74775446): consider using if anxious / prone to quitting;
better not immediately after needling to avoid sides (indian study & @74775446 (5% Kirkland liquid) = 24h, @Ludachris Batbak = 6h, @layabout (5% LipoGaine RED) = 4 h);
RINSING = tap water only / NO disinfectant (@74775446) - wonder if disinfectants on fresh wounds could tamper with needling benefits?;
SUPPLEMENTS = none @74775446 ("junk food") but had initial shed; @layabout no shed - wonder if due to supplements / nutrients availability (Biotin, D3 & K2, Proteins, B12, Omega-3):
www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/very-impressive-dermarolling-and-minxodil-results-from-tressless.117746/page-334#post-1766972

@REPEATABILITY: by keeping the parameters consistent with the studies / best responders, hopefully we are on our way to improvement too;

(BTW: much of the above is documented in the excellent @Bill_Russo FAQ thread:
www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/microneedling-faqs-procedures-studies-and-such.119653/)


QUESTIONS FOR RESPONDERS
(1) RINSING: @layabout, @Ludachris Batbak, @2young2retire
After needling you use tap water only or/and something else?

(2) ROLLING MID WEEK: @layabout:
You have mentioned light rolling (w/o redness) mid-week between derminations gets rid of itch which Derminator doesn't - have you tried derminating e.g @0.25mm for same effect?
Do you do it also for minoxidil absorption / do you apply it straight after?


SUMMARY
There is no warranty for needling to work for everyone - but given the available data it sure looks one of our best bets available: there are very few multi-year needling cases documented, but to my knowledge those are all successful (@PrettyFly, @Somebody, @Kitedude).

Therefore it might well be that most people eventually get results comparable to the best responders -
so let's attack & wound that bald scalp at least once monthly I say - and Good Luck to you all!