Very Impressive Dermarolling And Minxodil Results - From Tressless

[Squeegee 2.0]

@Squeegee 2.0

While the studies you linked were interesting to read, they don’t really prove anything. You linked me case studies, which are just observational studies that can't be used to generate hypotheses because they don't use a comparison/control group.

You can't really make conclusive evidence with these studies that are based on just one or a handful of patients.

The study on methotrexate was pretty interesting, but the people who did the study proposed that methotrexate's effect on androgen synthesis and metabolism was the cause. Kind of supports the idea that androgens play a big role in hair loss. Again, i'm not saying the only role, but a significant one.

The benoxaparen one was especially interesting because it's an NSAID. It kind of does show some association between inflammation and hairloss. What I noticed in the case reports in that study was that the patients had autoimmune conditions (except the osteoarthritis one). Ankylosing spondyloarthritis, psoriatic arthritis, and rheumatoid arthritis. Patients with autoimmune disorders tend to have overlapping other autoimmune disorders (look up HLA subtypes). Although i'm not an expert on the subject, from what i've studied so far I believe that their autoimmune conditions may have been associated with some type of autoimmune form of hairloss. So by treating their autoimmune disorder, they have had some resolution of their hairloss.

Finally, in the study on secukinumab you see at the very end they say "The possibility that repigmentation of hairs could be related to clinical healing of psoriasis on the scalp as a postinflammatory effect has also been taken into consideration, but hair darkening in our patient was observed in all areas of the scalp, regardless of whether he was affected by psoriasis" which is indeed very interesting. Finding hair darkening on other areas of the scalp was a pretty big find. One argument I have against this is that those areas that were not seen to be affected by psoriasis may have had some underlying psoriatic/autoimmune process that was not visible, and could have potentially flared into psoriasis should the patient not receive treatment. However, I could be wrong.

I find secukinumabm the most interesting of the bunch because it inhibits IL-17A and the effects are anti-aging.
Just a few pubmed to prove that inflammation plays a huge role in Androgenetic Alopecia

A hypothetical pathogenesis model for androgenic alopecia: clarifying the dihydrotestosterone paradox and rate-limiting recovery factors.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29407002
Evaluation of Perifollicular Inflammation of Donor Area during Hair Transplantation in Androgenetic Alopecia and its Comparison with Controls
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3877476/
Perifollicular fibrosis: pathogenetic role in androgenetic alopecia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16755026
Inflammatory Phenomena and Fibrosis in Androgenetic Alopecia
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-02636-2_3
Evaluation of the Expression of Genes Associated with Inflammation and Apoptosis in Androgenetic Alopecia by Targeted RNA-Seq
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/484530
The Role of Inflammation and Immunity in the Pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia
https://jddonline.com/articles/dermatology/S1545961611P1404X/1
Androgenetic alopecia in males: a histopathological and ultrastructural study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19527330
Destruction of the arrector pili muscle and fat infiltration in androgenic alopecia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24579818
Dermal fibrosis in male pattern hair loss: a suggestive implication of mast cells.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18286292
Androgenetic alopecia and microinflammation
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-4362.2000.00612.x
Prostaglandin D2 inhibits hair growth and is elevated in bald scalp of men with androgenetic alopecia
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22440736
Characterization of inflammatory infiltrates in male pattern alopecia: implications for pathogenesis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1390168
BALDNESS AND CALCIFICATION OF THE "IVORY DOME"
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/256511
Fibrosing alopecia in a pattern distribution: patterned lichen planopilaris or androgenetic alopecia with a lichenoid tissue reaction pattern?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10677097
High-dose proinflammatory cytokines induce apoptosis of hair bulb keratinocytes in vivo.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11069516
Elements of the interleukin-1 signaling system show hair cycle-dependent gene expression in murine skin.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9854157

 

[Necr0sis]

@Squeegee 2.0

Ah, very interesting stuff. Seems like incorporating some anti-inflammatory treatments into a regimen of the good old big 3 would be of extra benefit. I wouldn't want to f*** with systemic anti-inflammatory meds. The last thing I want is to develop random infections and tuberculosis, haha. Are you aware of any topical treatments that have been tried and tested?

 

[Necr0sis]

On another note: I think i'm going to skip this week's D2 session. I'm a little paranoid because I notice some thinning on the front. Not sure if it's just a shock, lighting (minoxidil in the hair making it look wet and thin), or I actually did mess up during my first few sessions by inducing too much bleeding and wounding.

My scalp has been very itchy lately and although I don't scratch it, I sometimes find myself waking up from sleep while scratching my head rigorously. Not sure if it's just some sensitivity to the D2, or from my kirkland minoxidil and/or hair styling products like pomade.

 

[I'mme]

I think 19 is kind of young for finasteride/dutasteride, but I don't really have evidence for that claim. Just a gut feeling that using it during your sexual prime might be a bad idea.

I started finasteride at 26 and it's been working great for me. I had sides for the first month that started becoming less prominent over the course of 3 months. Now i'm 2 years in and my sides are gone. My libido is back to normal.

Maybe you're right, Necrosis. But I've been losing hair - in the diffuse way - since I was 15, and if I don't take it now I will likely go bald. I'm losing hair all over the scalp and have only about 50% density left.

Do you think Indomethacin or diclofenac etc will be a good addition to big3?

 

[EndlessPossibilities]

Maybe you're right, Necrosis. But I've been losing hair - in the diffuse way - since I was 15, and if I don't take it now I will likely go bald. I'm lose hair all over the scalp and have only about 50% density left.

Do you think Indomethacin or diclofenac etc will be a good addition to big3?

See guys this is proof. He’s been losing hair since he was 15. Androgenic alopecia a god damn disease.

 

[I'mme]

Is there any way - test or biospy or sth - to make sure that DHT is the culprit behind my hair loss?

 

[EndlessPossibilities]

Is there any way - test or biospy or sth - to make sure that DHT is the culprit behind my hair loss?

If your hair is thinning as in you see thinner and thinner hairs. It’s more likely dht related than not.

 

[I'mme]

If your hair is thinning as in you see thinner and thinner hairs. It’s more likely dht related than not.

Okay. So say out of 30 hair I lose, 15 are not of my hair size - they're very small - and are very thin, does this indicate that it is caused by DHT?

There is no test? :-(

 

[GrowPro]

Okay. So say out of 30 hair I lose, 15 are not of my hair size - they're very small - and are very thin, does this indicate that it is caused by DHT?

There is no test? :-(

Yes, from what I’ve learned short fine hairs with fine tip at the top end are very likely the DHT miniaturized hairs shedding and being replaced by an even short miniaturized hair in its root, as newly grown short hairs would not shed in such a short growth phase after being newly sprouted.

No test.

 

[I'mme]

Yes, from what I’ve learned short fine hairs with fine tip at the top end are very likely the DHT miniaturized hairs shedding and being replaced by an even short miniaturized hair in its root, as newly grown short hairs would not shed in such a short growth phase after being newly sprouted.

No test.

What about white bulb at the end?

 

[I'mme]

I find secukinumabm the most interesting of the bunch because it inhibits IL-17A and the effects are anti-aging.
Just a few pubmed to prove that inflammation plays a huge role in Androgenetic Alopecia

A hypothetical pathogenesis model for androgenic alopecia: clarifying the dihydrotestosterone paradox and rate-limiting recovery factors.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29407002
Evaluation of Perifollicular Inflammation of Donor Area during Hair Transplantation in Androgenetic Alopecia and its Comparison with Controls
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3877476/
Perifollicular fibrosis: pathogenetic role in androgenetic alopecia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16755026
Inflammatory Phenomena and Fibrosis in Androgenetic Alopecia
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-02636-2_3
Evaluation of the Expression of Genes Associated with Inflammation and Apoptosis in Androgenetic Alopecia by Targeted RNA-Seq
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/484530
The Role of Inflammation and Immunity in the Pathogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia
https://jddonline.com/articles/dermatology/S1545961611P1404X/1
Androgenetic alopecia in males: a histopathological and ultrastructural study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19527330
Destruction of the arrector pili muscle and fat infiltration in androgenic alopecia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24579818
Dermal fibrosis in male pattern hair loss: a suggestive implication of mast cells.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18286292
Androgenetic alopecia and microinflammation
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-4362.2000.00612.x
Prostaglandin D2 inhibits hair growth and is elevated in bald scalp of men with androgenetic alopecia
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22440736
Characterization of inflammatory infiltrates in male pattern alopecia: implications for pathogenesis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1390168
BALDNESS AND CALCIFICATION OF THE "IVORY DOME"
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/256511
Fibrosing alopecia in a pattern distribution: patterned lichen planopilaris or androgenetic alopecia with a lichenoid tissue reaction pattern?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10677097
High-dose proinflammatory cytokines induce apoptosis of hair bulb keratinocytes in vivo.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11069516
Elements of the interleukin-1 signaling system show hair cycle-dependent gene expression in murine skin.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9854157

@Squeegee 2.0 do you think curcumin would suffice for inflammation?

MSM is also inflammatory and very good for hair, but it increases collagen, so its role is moot.

 

[tressful11]

I find secukinumabm the most interesting of the bunch because it inhibits IL-17A and the effects are anti-aging.
Just a few pubmed to prove that inflammation plays a huge role in Androgenetic Alopecia

I am with you on this and infact this is what I've believed since the very beginning because I lost like 70% of my hair within just 2-3 months after the initial onset of male pattern baldness. I believe I have chronic internal inflammation which is why even Dutasteride did nothing for me. Couldn't even control hairloss. I can feel constant pain and unease in my liver and some signs of inflammation are regular pain in some specific muscles.

 

[FCKW36]

I am with you on this and infact this is what I've believed since the very beginning because I lost like 70% of my hair within just 2-3 months after the initial onset of male pattern baldness. I believe I have chronic internal inflammation which is why even Dutasteride did nothing for me. Couldn't even control hairloss. I can feel constant pain and unease in my liver and some signs of inflammation are regular pain in some specific muscles.

Could be the same for me, my hairloss pattern is very uncommon and I'm immune to Finasteride. I will follow the insulin sensitivity theorie now because it has some serious since behind it.

 

[Necr0sis]

Is there any way - test or biospy or sth - to make sure that DHT is the culprit behind my hair loss?

The thing is if you’re a man, and you’re losing hair, there is a strong chance it’s androgenic. A lot of people just deny it (like I did, until I was 25 and realized how bad I thinned out).

Although there’s is evidence that anti inflammatory meds have had positive effects on hair growth, the evidence I’ve seen is weak. Mainly from case studies and case series studies which are observational studies that are not appropriate for generating hypotheses. Meanwhile, while androgenic alopecia isn’t the only mechanism involved in hair loss, there is much stronger evidence to support it.

The risks of using anti inflammatory medications is not worth it in the long term. Something as simple as nsaids like indomethacin will harm your kidneys, predispose you to ulcers, etc. More potent medications will suppress your immune system.

Again, I don’t want to come off as pretentious but as a medical student this is something I study. Although I don’t specialize in hair loss, I have a basic understanding of some of the stuff. Both for hair loss and the anti-inflammatory meds.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the reason why some people seemingly don't respond well to finasteride/dutasteride is because the medications aren't mean to 100% suppress all DHT activity. Some of the poor responders might simply have a more severe form of androgenic alopecia, involving more DHT receptors, 5AR activity, etc.

Of course, one can't ignore the possibility of Telogen effluvium. Considering this, It would be a good idea to check your thyroid levels, blood sugar, and make sure you aren't deficient in any nutrients (eg, Zinc)

 

[Jamesdunn]

Some more pictures for Roberta.

 

[Necr0sis]

My front has had an increase in density but the crown is either going negative or is stalled. I think you are getting a shed in your hairline and I'm getting one in my crown.

Hehe, thanks for the reassurance. I'm just scared I did some damage from the bleeding.

 

[Necr0sis]

Just a question: What is another pen that isn't as expensive as the D2 but still gets the job done good? Trying to help my younger brother out.

 

[NarWhal7]

New result posted on reddit.

View attachment 119801

https://old.reddit.com/r/tressless/comments/bs2em7/25_months_on_fin_and_nizoral_with_dermarolling/

I dont trust this one.
I don't see enough of a difference that couldn't be done in 2 minutes with a comb and a lightbulb.

 

[Jamesdunn]

Oh man I really hope I get similar results. This is f*****g awesome.

I buzzed my hair today before another session and I was unable to check the progress of my receded temples because of the orientation of my hair growth there but with a buzz cut I'm happy to report that they have had a 100% recovery in just 6-7 weeks in terms of shape and 60-70% recovery in terms of density. Needling also hurt a bit more with buzzed hair.

Did you front recover first too?
Or did everything start recovering at the same time?

To be honest temples and crown have progressed at the same rate. I've found better success when swapping from derma pen to roller. Just found it easier to use

 

[Eazy12]

New result posted on reddit.

View attachment 119801

https://old.reddit.com/r/tressless/comments/bs2em7/25_months_on_fin_and_nizoral_with_dermarolling/

Am I supposed to be impressed?
Different lighting and a blurry *** pic.
Unless you're using a HD webcam or phone that can take highly detailed pics close up, dont bother at all.
Been rolling as per the OP's method since November and has made zero difference. If I comb my hair in a particular way or change the lighting slightly I could trick you into believing ive gained 50% regrowth but im not going to BS anyone.