What if these revolutions spread to Israel/Palestine?

[Anarch]

I feel this is all snowballing towards the inevitable.

:dropmouth:

 

[Ori83]

What revolutions ? in Egypt? it will never spread to Israel. trust me

(Israeli population is calmed has no reason to start with revolutions, barely knows nor care about these, busy with other things, like the stupid Israeli government)

 

[Anarch]

Are you being facetious? :whistle:

I'm talking about a Palestinian uprising on the same scale as Egypt.

 

[Ori83]

What you call "revolutions" is a sunny day in Israel, they cant really rebel more than what already did. this is nonsense, you can quote my words and i promise ill eat my hat if im wrong, but this no more then a fly on an elephants rear...

 

[Anarch]

What you call "revolutions" is a sunny day in Israel, they cant really rebel more than what already did. this is nonsense, you can quote my words and i promise ill eat my hat if im wrong, but this no more then a fly on an elephants rear...

Duly noted. Just thinking aloud. :salut:

 

[HughJass]

Are you being facetious? :whistle:

I'm talking about a Palestinian uprising on the same scale as Egypt.

Israel already kills and imprisons with impunity in the west bank and gaza so if there was to be a big uprising it will just be put down with the same brutality as other peaceful protests are broken up with each week in the occupied territories.

The Palestinian security forces would most likely do it for them.

Pretty good chance it would trigger the next intifada if that were the response from Israel and PA.

 

[The Gardener]

Good for the Egyptians. I hope they toss Mubarak out on his ***.

I am happy when any people muster the courage to free themselves from under the jackboot of one of Uncle Sam's tin pot tyrants.

Every one of them that falls means there is less torture, extrajudicial killing, and oppression that is being done in my name.

 

[HughJass]

Egypt protests: America's secret backing for rebel leaders behind uprising
The American government secretly backed leading figures behind the Egyptian uprising who have been planning “regime changeâ€￾ for the past three years, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

The American Embassy in Cairo helped a young dissident attend a US-sponsored summit for activists in New York, while working to keep his identity secret from Egyptian state police.

On his return to Cairo in December 2008, the activist told US diplomats that an alliance of opposition groups had drawn up a plan to overthrow President Hosni Mubarak and install a democratic government in 2011.

The secret document in full

He has already been arrested by Egyptian security in connection with the demonstrations and his identity is being protected by The Daily Telegraph.

The crisis in Egypt follows the toppling of Tunisian president Zine al-Abedine Ben Ali, who fled the country after widespread protests forced him from office.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ising.html

 

[The Gardener]

Egypt protests: America's secret backing for rebel leaders behind uprising
The American government secretly backed leading figures behind the Egyptian uprising who have been planning “regime changeâ€￾ for the past three years, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

The American Embassy in Cairo helped a young dissident attend a US-sponsored summit for activists in New York, while working to keep his identity secret from Egyptian state police.

On his return to Cairo in December 2008, the activist told US diplomats that an alliance of opposition groups had drawn up a plan to overthrow President Hosni Mubarak and install a democratic government in 2011.

The secret document in full

He has already been arrested by Egyptian security in connection with the demonstrations and his identity is being protected by The Daily Telegraph.

The crisis in Egypt follows the toppling of Tunisian president Zine al-Abedine Ben Ali, who fled the country after widespread protests forced him from office.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ising.html

It wouldn't surprise me. The Egyptians think that they are shedding a tyrant, and LO and BEHOLD, when the dust settles.... meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

Then again, never underestimate the incompetence of our intelligence services. We start a coup, but the plan backfires and we end up handing control of the country over to islamists, or to Iran.

 

[Bryan]

Good for the Egyptians. I hope they toss Mubarak out on his ***.

I am happy when any people muster the courage to free themselves from under the jackboot of one of Uncle Sam's tin pot tyrants.

Every one of them that falls means there is less torture, extrajudicial killing, and oppression that is being done in my name.

OH REALLY?? Islamic fanatics are gaining more and more influence over there. If Egypt becomes another Iran, will you consider that a victory?

 

[The Gardener]

Good for the Egyptians. I hope they toss Mubarak out on his ***.

I am happy when any people muster the courage to free themselves from under the jackboot of one of Uncle Sam's tin pot tyrants.

Every one of them that falls means there is less torture, extrajudicial killing, and oppression that is being done in my name.

OH REALLY?? Islamic fanatics are gaining more and more influence over there. If Egypt becomes another Iran, will you consider that a victory?

Karma's a b**ch, isn't it.

I think the lesson to be learned from Iran is that we should renounce our support for the oppressive tyrant, and proclaim our support for people who are tired of corruption, and a brutal police state that suppresses opposition. I mean, Bryan, please tell me you aren't advocating continued support for a dictator?

If installing dictatorships and propping them up with billions of dollars is the only way of preventing these nations from being a "threat" to us, then I think the heart of the problem isn't with these nations... its with our OWN policies.

 

[Bryan]

Gardener, you're avoiding the question I asked you. If our choice is either 1) allow an Iran-style Islamic state to develop, or 2) support a hard-line Westernized ruler who doesn't always play by our usual strict Democratic rules, which do you think is the wiser course of action for us? :dunno:

 

[The Gardener]

Gardener, you're avoiding the question I asked you. If our choice is either 1) allow an Iran-style Islamic state to develop, or 2) support a hard-line Westernized ruler who doesn't always play by our usual strict Democratic rules, which do you think is the wiser course of action for us? :dunno:

I don't think the reality of the situation is such a binary choice. The Egyptian revolution is NOT being lead by radical islamists. You don't see people with beards and burqas being lead by clerics shouting death to America, as you did in Iran. In Egypt, you see secularly dressed young people proclaiming desire for democracy and a regime that is not corrupt. Frankly, I side with that desire. I'm generally against the concept of American Empire, so I am FIRMLY against people being arrested indiscriminately, tortured, and forced to live under corrupt leadership in a country half way around the world that poses absolutely ZERO security threat to us.

Besides, the genesis of the islamist "threat" is their desire for retribution for us keeping their governments backwards, and keeping them under thumb of hand picked dictators. And our support for the continued annexation of Palestine... and on that front, as much as I like Israel, I think they are inevitably going to reap what they sew, and I don't want American lives involved in it.

Supporting corrupt rulers doesn't stifle the islamist threat, it FEEDS it!

And, the Iranian revolution didn't have to end up the way it did. Just as in Iraq, we botched the intelligence, believed the Shah's BS about the situation being under control, and lost an opportunity to engage more moderate elements of the Iranian revolutionaries.

 

[CCS]

Good for the Egyptians. I hope they toss Mubarak out on his ***.

I am happy when any people muster the courage to free themselves from under the jackboot of one of Uncle Sam's tin pot tyrants.

Every one of them that falls means there is less torture, extrajudicial killing, and oppression that is being done in my name.

Are we supporting the Egyptian government with our tax dollars? I know we pay them not to attack Israel...

 

[CCS]

Gardener, you're avoiding the question I asked you. If our choice is either 1) allow an Iran-style Islamic state to develop, or 2) support a hard-line Westernized ruler who doesn't always play by our usual strict Democratic rules, which do you think is the wiser course of action for us? :dunno:

I don't think the reality of the situation is such a binary choice. The Egyptian revolution is NOT being lead by radical islamists. You don't see people with beards and burqas being lead by clerics shouting death to America, as you did in Iran. In Egypt, you see secularly dressed young people proclaiming desire for democracy and a regime that is not corrupt. Frankly, I side with that desire. I'm generally against the concept of American Empire, so I am FIRMLY against people being arrested indiscriminately, tortured, and forced to live under corrupt leadership in a country half way around the world that poses absolutely ZERO security threat to us.

Besides, the genesis of the islamist "threat" is their desire for retribution for us keeping their governments backwards, and keeping them under thumb of hand picked dictators. And our support for the continued annexation of Palestine... and on that front, as much as I like Israel, I think they are inevitably going to reap what they sew, and I don't want American lives involved in it.

Supporting corrupt rulers doesn't stifle the islamist threat, it FEEDS it!

And, the Iranian revolution didn't have to end up the way it did. Just as in Iraq, we botched the intelligence, believed the Shah's BS about the situation being under control, and lost an opportunity to engage more moderate elements of the Iranian revolutionaries.

Gardener for President!

 

[Bryan]

I don't think the reality of the situation is such a binary choice. The Egyptian revolution is NOT being lead by radical islamists.

And I'm saying for the third time: what if it IS (or BECOMES) a binary choice? The NBC Nightly News last night talked about how Islamic influences are becoming more and more involved in the Egyptian crisis. What if you ARE eventually forced to make the difficult choice I've been trying to get you to make?

 

[The Gardener]

I don't think the reality of the situation is such a binary choice. The Egyptian revolution is NOT being lead by radical islamists.

And I'm saying for the third time: what if it IS (or BECOMES) a binary choice? The NBC Nightly News last night talked about how Islamic influences are becoming more and more involved in the Egyptian crisis. What if you ARE eventually forced to make the difficult choice I've been trying to get you to make?

I'll bite.

I don't think we have a choice. We can't afford a greater war. The MidEast is going to explode inevitably. I think we need to distance ourselves as far from it as possible. And as for Egypt, I'd rather they get their freedom from the tyrant now, rather than us (the US) continue to oppress them more brutally, on the US taxpayers' dime to the tune of $1.5B a year or thereabouts, in hopes of delaying the day of reckoning, kicking the can down the road, and making the end result later be even bloodier and self-destructive.

The US is broke and in a sovereign debt death spiral. The sooner we realize and accept this and act accordingly, the better.

 

[HughJass]

And I'm saying for the third time: what if it IS (or BECOMES) a binary choice?

that's a hypothetical. The reality is:


Dominic Asquith, Britain's ambassador to Egypt, said of the demonstrations: "I'm struck by the variety of age, of class, of gender. It's across the board, you can see it – you can see the variety of people there. It's not, from my perception, religiously driven. This is not the Muslim Brotherhood."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/ ... B920110129

The NBC Nightly News last night talked about how Islamic influences are becoming more and more involved in the Egyptian crisis.

90% of western media sources are just clearing houses for government press releases and talking points. We never hear any respected scholars and experts giving their views on the situation in far away country x. All we get is establishment journalists who don't know how to investigate and question along with the same old political talking heads.

The idea that we're faced with a stark choice between a hardman and Islamists in these countries appears to be blatant propaganda used to justify propping up puppets who will give the West what it wants. These countries are full of pro-democracy activists, they just aren't portrayed that way (on purpose)

Gardener is on the money about Islamism growing exponentially with some pretty awful western policies in muslim countries. It should be no surprise that they aren't going to become more moderate when we help torture and bomb them.

 

[Bryan]

that's a hypothetical. The reality is:

Dominic Asquith, Britain's ambassador to Egypt, said of the demonstrations: "I'm struck by the variety of age, of class, of gender. It's across the board, you can see it – you can see the variety of people there. It's not, from my perception, religiously driven. This is not the Muslim Brotherhood."

I hope he's right. Time will tell.

 

[HughJass]

The army aren't shooting the protesters and doesn't look like they have any intention of doing so. Mubarak is gone for sure.


Abdullah just sacked the Jordanian government and is obviously crapping himself. Hopefully the Palestinians can kick the PA to the curb.