What if these revolutions spread to Israel/Palestine?

[somone uk]

i can't see egypt becoming stable any time soon, but frankly anarchy is probably the best Egypt can get for the foreseeable future

if the muslim brotherhood took over than egypt would just fall into the dark abyss that is a non-secular government, where people are relieved of the burden of thinking for themselves at the expense of liberty, debate, innovation and even a proper democracy

they could become a democracy but most countries when introduced to a democracy are usually prone to electoral rigging and and scandals thus are too prone to becoming a dictatorship straight away, you need a large mandate to get a working democracy but it appears that they would rather rid their dictatorship with an islamic dictatorship

i fear that egypt will soon be joining the cycle that other african states are stuck in, with never ending civil war and never ending waves of coups

 

[Bryan]

if the muslim brotherhood took over than egypt would just fall into the dark abyss that is a non-secular government, where people are relieved of the burden of thinking for themselves at the expense of liberty, debate, innovation and even a proper democracy

Did everybody (Americans, at least) see Bill Maher's HBO show Friday night? He had an Egyptian woman on as an interview guest early in the show (can't think of her name to save my life, but I believe she's relatively famous in some countries as a writer/columnist/commentator). She spoke grandly and vigorously about the uprising in Egypt, and how they were going to get rid of that terrible person Mubarak!

But Bill Maher confronted her with some very troubling issues: how does she respond to the shockingly high percentages of Egyptians (even higher than Iranians, for God's sake!) who have very extreme religious views (like how people who commit adultery, or try to leave the Muslim faith should be executed)??!! The woman hemmed and hawed over that, tried to ignore those questions, and tried to turn the conversation back to the claim that everybody in Egypt was simply trying to get rid of Mubarak.

So I guess the bottom-line is that I certainly hope that she's correct when she says that the Muslim Brotherhood isn't that big a factor in Egypt, but I'll only really believe it for sure if and when this all plays out well in Egypt, and Mubarak is gone, and Egypt has attained status as a (relatively) modern and democratic country.

 

[HughJass]

if the muslim brotherhood took over than egypt would just fall into the dark abyss that is a non-secular government, where people are relieved of the burden of thinking for themselves at the expense of liberty, debate, innovation and even a proper democracy

Did everybody (Americans, at least) see Bill Maher's HBO show Friday night? He had an Egyptian woman on as an interview guest early in the show (can't think of her name to save my life, but I believe she's relatively famous in some countries as a writer/columnist/commentator). She spoke grandly and vigorously about the uprising in Egypt, and how they were going to get rid of that terrible person Mubarak!

But Bill Maher confronted her with some very troubling issues: how does she respond to the shockingly high percentages of Egyptians (even higher than Iranians, for God's sake!) who have very extreme religious views (like how people who commit adultery, or try to leave the Muslim faith should be executed)??!! The woman hemmed and hawed over that, tried to ignore those questions, and tried to turn the conversation back to the claim that everybody in Egypt was simply trying to get rid of Mubarak.

So I guess the bottom-line is that I certainly hope that she's correct when she says that the Muslim Brotherhood isn't that big a factor in Egypt, but I'll only really believe it for sure if and when this all plays out well in Egypt, and Mubarak is gone, and Egypt has attained status as a (relatively) modern and democratic country.

We've got a wikileaks cable showing how US diplomats think the threat of the Muslim Brotherhood is blown out of proportion and the best thing to do to counter radical parties is to have a more open society, there's a statement from a British diplomat in Egypt saying that the protests aren't religious in nature (and heaps of Egyptians and other foreign reporters are saying that as well) and there is the fact that the muslim brotherhood have a membership of only 180,000 people out of a total population of 80 million. The MB aren't even anything like AQ or other Islamist groups.

So it seems pretty clear to me if you really want to know what is happening in Egypt in regards to the political situation then it's a good idea to NOT get your info from mainstream American sources. They are at total odds with what is actually happening.

I posted this before, it's well worth the read

The Muslim Brotherhood Bogey Man

 

[baldinglikeamofo]

If the world put all its energy into finding the cure for baldness instead of wasting time, effort and money on bullocks such as wars and israel, we'd all have hair right now.


Come on people!!! I'm so sick of this thread being more popular than hairlosstalk!


Lets all live in peace for gods sake!

 

[Ori83]

Egypt is lost gone, Mubarak was the closest they would ever get to democracy, it will stay in chaos and anarchy untill some western country (..) will rape it into false democracy, if think there is a little hope for true democracy (or anything resembling it) then you do not understand the mentality of the middle east.

 

[Bryan]

We've got a wikileaks cable showing how US diplomats think the threat of the Muslim Brotherhood is blown out of proportion and the best thing to do to counter radical parties is to have a more open society, there's a statement from a British diplomat in Egypt saying that the protests aren't religious in nature (and heaps of Egyptians and other foreign reporters are saying that as well) and there is the fact that the muslim brotherhood have a membership of only 180,000 people out of a total population of 80 million. The MB aren't even anything like AQ or other Islamist groups.

Again, I very fervently hope that they're correct in that analysis.

So it seems pretty clear to me if you really want to know what is happening in Egypt in regards to the political situation then it's a good idea to NOT get your info from mainstream American sources. They are at total odds with what is actually happening.

Really?? Then how do you explain those shocking statistics on Egyptian religious fanaticism that Bill Maher mentioned on his recent show?

 

[HughJass]

Really?? Then how do you explain those shocking statistics on Egyptian religious fanaticism that Bill Maher mentioned on his recent show?

I haven't seen the show so I don't know the statistics you are talking ahout.


The protests have been a pretty exemplary model of non-violent action, especially in the face of a vicious state police, so I can't help but be skeptical of claims about the extent of radicalization amongst the citizens :dunno:

 

[Bryan]

Really?? Then how do you explain those shocking statistics on Egyptian religious fanaticism that Bill Maher mentioned on his recent show?

I haven't seen the show so I don't know the statistics you are talking ahout.

The woman's name is Mona Eltahawy, and here is a YouTube video of that interview! The point where they discuss the statistics comes just a little past the 2-minute mark. Watch and listen carefully:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJYBryXeGek

 

[Bryan]

Wow, in this case he (Bill Maher) hit it on the head, and she did nothing other than beat around the bush... Very telling piece!

Exactly! He did his best to try to pin her down as to what she thought about those statistics, and she evaded it for all she was worth!

 

[HughJass]

Really?? Then how do you explain those shocking statistics on Egyptian religious fanaticism that Bill Maher mentioned on his recent show?

I haven't seen the show so I don't know the statistics you are talking ahout.

The woman's name is Mona Eltahawy, and here is a YouTube video of that interview! The point where they discuss the statistics comes just a little past the 2-minute mark. Watch and listen carefully:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJYBryXeGek

well, who knows how accurate a picture those polls (maher didn't mention what year they were from) are painting? I always take polls conducted in countries with widespread illiteracy with a grain of salt.....

I've read quite a few articles from Egyptians and westerners who work in Egypt which suggest things aren't really like that all. A friend of mine is from Alexandria and says it's no crazy religious state.

I don't live in Egypt and I don't visit there so all I can do is listen to the people who live there :dunno:

 

[HughJass]

I should add- I think it's strange to worry about religion having more influence in Egypt and thinking it's going to have a detrimental effect on society. That's suggesting Egypt is already some kind of bastion of human rights and democracy that could be lost at any moment. It's secular leaders already rival the barbarity of theocratic rulers like the House of Saud. There's not a great deal of room left to go any further south.

 

[HughJass]

It would be good to see those stats for ourselves as well. Maher's a Zionist so I don't really trust him to be impartial in any conversation about the Mid East.

 

[Bryan]

It would be good to see those stats for ourselves as well.

Why? Do you think there are very many Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Jews, Presbyterians, or Mormons who believe people who leave those faiths should be executed? :laugh:

Maher's a Zionist so I don't really trust him to be impartial in any conversation about the Mid East.

I've listened to Bill Maher for years. I've never gotten the impression that he's a "Zionist".

 

[HughJass]

It would be good to see those stats for ourselves as well.

Why? Do you think there are very many Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Jews, Presbyterians, or Mormons who believe people who leave those faiths should be executed? :laugh:

huh?


I thought I made my reasons for wanting to see the stats for myself rather than take it on faith from a 3rd party pretty obvious?

I've listened to Bill Maher for years. I've never gotten the impression that he's a "Zionist".

Maybe you haven't heard him speak about Israel, or maybe you have a different idea of what constitutes a zionist....

[youtube:1vvbd1bq]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL0zbWm6ba4[/youtube:1vvbd1bq]
[youtube:1vvbd1bq]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZbzs5BwBLA[/youtube:1vvbd1bq]

 

[somone uk]

It would be good to see those stats for ourselves as well.

Why? Do you think there are very many Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Jews, Presbyterians, or Mormons who believe people who leave those faiths should be executed? :laugh: .

this is a time i thank god that Christians don't read the bible

“When you begin living in the towns the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman among you might do evil in the sight of the Lord your God and violate the covenant. For instance, they might serve other gods or worship the sun, the moon, or any of the stars—the forces of heaven—which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then the man or woman who has committed such an evil act must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death..

Deuteronomy 17, 2-8
(also Deuteronomy is in the Torah)

 

[Bryan]

It would be good to see those stats for ourselves as well.

Why? Do you think there are very many Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Jews, Presbyterians, or Mormons who believe people who leave those faiths should be executed? :laugh:

huh?

I thought I made my reasons for wanting to see the stats for myself rather than take it on faith from a 3rd party pretty obvious?

HUH?? I immediately assumed that you were talking about having a similar poll done of us Westerners. You meant you only wanted to see all the results of the poll done of the Egyptians?

I've listened to Bill Maher for years. I've never gotten the impression that he's a "Zionist".

Maybe you haven't heard him speak about Israel, or maybe you have a different idea of what constitutes a zionist....

I've heard him speak about Israel lots of times, and I repeat: I've never had any impression that he's a "Zionist". Do you think anybody who says he or she is a "big supporter of Israel" is a "Zionist"?

 

[HughJass]

HUH?? I immediately assumed that you were talking about having a similar poll done of us Westerners.

haha nope!

You meant you only wanted to see all the results of the poll done of the Egyptians?

yep

I've heard him speak about Israel lots of times, and I repeat: I've never had any impression that he's a "Zionist". Do you think anybody who says he or she is a "big supporter of Israel" is a "Zionist"?

Pretty much!


I don't know what other conclusion to make when I hear Zionist talking points being trotted out like that....

 

[Bryan]

I don't know what other conclusion to make when I hear Zionist talking points being trotted out like that....

I've heard lots of people in this country (I'm sure the same thing happens in other countries, too, including Australia) talk about how they support Israel, because it's a lone democracy in a really tough part of the world. These people come from all walks of life, including gentiles of every persuasion.

The term "Zionist", on the other hand, implies to me something MUCH deeper than just a person who simply supports Israel. It implies to me a Jew who deeply and directly supports the founding of Israel in Palestine (probably on deeply religious grounds), and perhaps its further expansion in that area.

Contrast all that with a Baptist or Catholic or Methodist guy who has heard about dreadful suicide-bombings by members of a certain religious group in the Middle-East, and says to his friends and neighbors: "I support Israel." Does that man really sound like a "Zionist" to you?

 

[Ori83]

Why everyone here talking about being Zionist like its a bad thing? :dunno: m i missing something?
By definition, being a Zionist means acknowledging the right of the Jewish ppl to have a country within the areas of Israel. it doesnt preach to harm people, as an Israeli, i can assure you that almost every Israeli (and people who understand the fragile situation ) consider themselves Zionnists.
i've yet to meet someone who uses that term as a negative thing outside this forum. (other then radical Islamic people that is)

 

[Bryan]

By definition, being a Zionist means acknowledging the right of the Jewish ppl to have a country within the areas of Israel.

So do you agree with what I said earlier, that a Catholic man living in, say, Houston, who "supports Israel" (but has no particular feeling about whether or not thay have a "right" to have the country of Israel) isn't really a "Zionist"?