What if these revolutions spread to Israel/Palestine?

[HughJass]

I don't know what other conclusion to make when I hear Zionist talking points being trotted out like that....

I've heard lots of people in this country (I'm sure the same thing happens in other countries, too, including Australia) talk about how they support Israel, because it's a lone democracy in a really tough part of the world. These people come from all walks of life, including gentiles of every persuasion.

Anybody who buys into that particularly bankrupt argument (and all the other talking points put out there by the Israel boosters for that matter) has put themselves firmly into the Zionist camp whether they realize it or not.

The term "Zionist", on the other hand, implies to me something MUCH deeper than just a person who simply supports Israel. It implies to me a Jew who deeply and directly supports the founding of Israel in Palestine (probably on deeply religious grounds), and perhaps its further expansion in that area.

It's true that there are the true believers and those who have just succumbed to the spin without really knowing what they are talking about, but they are all in the same camp.

Contrast all that with a Baptist or Catholic or Methodist guy who has heard about dreadful suicide-bombings by members of a certain religious group in the Middle-East, and says to his friends and neighbors: "I support Israel." Does that man really sound like a "Zionist" to you?

That is a pretty good example of the Zionist mentality that 99% of people who regard themselves as Israel supporters have taken onboard, whether they are aware of it or not.

When somebody throws their weight behind Israel after a suicide bombing it usually means they've come to believe a whole lot of things about the conflict which aren't true, the predominant one being that one side always has the moral upperhand. So it's only logical you support that side.

Most people who support Israel do so on idealogical grounds even if they do not realize it. They don't support Israel because of pragmatisim or black and white morality like they may believe they do, or how you might think they do as your example there suggests.

 

[HughJass]

Why everyone here talking about being Zionist like its a bad thing? :dunno: m i missing something?
By definition, being a Zionist means acknowledging the right of the Jewish ppl to have a country within the areas of Israel. it doesnt preach to harm people, as an Israeli, i can assure you that almost every Israeli (and people who understand the fragile situation ) consider themselves Zionnists.
i've yet to meet someone who uses that term as a negative thing outside this forum. (other then radical Islamic people that is)

People have a big problem with it because Zionism's main contention is that rights should be awarded on the basis of ethnicity, and that that rights of one ethnic group supercede the rights of another eg jewish people should have whatever land they want regardless of who might be living there before them It's an idealogy which is built on ethnic exclusivity.


I think a lot of Israelis get pissed off at hearing people rat on Zionism because they've misconstrued it as an attack on their right to live in their homes in Israel now. They don't seem to see a different between Zionism and their rights as a nation state.

 

[Bryan]

Anybody who buys into that particularly bankrupt argument (and all the other talking points put out there by the Israel boosters for that matter) has put themselves firmly into the Zionist camp whether they realize it or not.

"Bankrupt argument"?? Can you yourself not see what an ANTI-Zionist camp you're in, whether you realize it or not?

Contrast all that with a Baptist or Catholic or Methodist guy who has heard about dreadful suicide-bombings by members of a certain religious group in the Middle-East, and says to his friends and neighbors: "I support Israel." Does that man really sound like a "Zionist" to you?

That is a pretty good example of the Zionist mentality that 99% of people who regard themselves as Israel supporters have taken onboard, whether they are aware of it or not.

When somebody throws their weight behind Israel after a suicide bombing it usually means they've come to believe a whole lot of things about the conflict which aren't true, the predominant one being that one side always has the moral upperhand. So it's only logical you support that side.

Most people who support Israel do so on idealogical grounds even if they do not realize it. They don't support Israel because of pragmatisim or black and white morality like they may believe they do, or how you might think they do as your example there suggests.

Do you think it's acceptable to bomb a pizza parlor or a children's bus? Are you looking us all in the eye and telling us that you don't think those are black and white moral issues?? How can you even sleep at night, after saying what you just said?

 

[HughJass]

Anybody who buys into that particularly bankrupt argument (and all the other talking points put out there by the Israel boosters for that matter) has put themselves firmly into the Zionist camp whether they realize it or not.

"Bankrupt argument"??

Yes, that's right. I'll go into in detail if want to know why I said that.

Can you yourself not see what an ANTI-Zionist camp you're in, whether you realize it or not?

Of course I can. I'm enrolled in that camp by choice!

Do you think it's acceptable to bomb a pizza parlor or a children's bus? Are you looking us all in the eye and telling us that you don't think those are black and white moral issues?? How can you even sleep at night, after saying what you just said?

The morality or immorality of suicide bombing is not the issue and I wasn't debating it.

The issue is that people become partisan supporters of Israel in this conflict not because of their moral superiority, but because their perception of this conflict is shaped by belief and propaganda.

Support for Israel (over the Palestinians) solely because of attacks against civilians is an untenable position. If a supporter is presented with example after example of deliberate Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians then the reason they took sides in the first place (the belief that one side does things the other doesn't)no longer exists.

 

[Ori83]

this argument will forever be and wont be solved on the pages of this forum, its all subjective. so please let the thread back to initial subject.

 

[HughJass]

@Aussieavodart

The following is from Wikipedia, a neutral source, you can check their references, I will provide the link. But I'm sure you will quickly dismiss this as a ''Straw man arguement'' as you do with anything that contradicts your personal beliefs...

LOL. You really believe that?


As for the rest of your post, it looks fairly obvious to me that your knowledge of this conflict is about as limited as the average American's. Your characterization of Israel as a benelovent actor just going about it's business while being attacked (for no reason) by hoardes of barbarians is nothing more than a rediculous caricature. No mention of any Israeli crimes which make Palestinian crimes pale in comparison. All I can do is direct you to some reading material if you are prepared to actually learn something you didn't already know.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
http://mideastfacts.org/facts/index.php
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/
http://www.palestineremembered.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat ... nse_Forces
http://www.flw.ugent.be/cie/Palestina/palestina264.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org
/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_shell ... tion_by_UN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ma ... Flight_114
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/06/28/i ... aky-ground
http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm

If anything, the following few quotes should have you doubting your beliefs:

Along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps ?" there was only the Syrian army... The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land ... and they dreamed about it... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us. -Moshe Dayan

"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig,

Aussieavodart, How would you feel if Hammas was operating in your back yard?

I'd urge my government to take them up on one of their numerous offers to end the conflict on the green line.

I'd also feel pretty ashamed if my government organized to overthrow a democratically elected government there then tried to starve out the population as punishment, deprived them of medical supplies leading in a whole heap of deaths that wouldn't have otherwise happened and then used the population as target practice.

(Theoretically) By your logic, you should divide your country, and give half of it to the Aborigines, otherwise you are a hypocrite! You have no right to critisize the Zionists!

Yes, I have no problem with land rights for aboriginal people.

 

[HughJass]

US Military Aid Paid for Mubarak's Yacht Repairs

Ever wonder what $1.3 billion a year buys a strategic ally? How about spruce-ups on a despot's ironically named megayacht?

http://m.motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/u ... ir-freedom

money well spent!

 

[Primo]

Don't even bother giving selective statistics or talking about bus bomings, rocket attack etc...

Sure Israel has a right to defend itself, but it doesn't have the right to annihilate half the infrastructure in Gaza and Lebanon and thousands of civilians in the space of a few weeks (See the figures for the recent conflicts in Gaza and Lebanon)...

The problem with Israel has always been one of proportionality.

 

[The Gardener]

This "revolution" might not be a revolution at all:

http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/p ... 0Style.pdf

You can skip down to the concluding paragraph if you don't want to read the entire thing. In a nutshell, the operatives who set up the social media infrastructure for all of these soft revolutions in the Middle East and Central Asia are funded by US intelligence interests per a documented "New Middle East" plan that was initiated under the Bush Administration and is now continuing to operate under Obama... the intent being one of taking down problematic Western puppet regimes and replacing them with more socially acceptable Western puppet regimes... in order to do this in an orderly, Western-controlled fashion rather than let the problematic regimes be taken down in a true chaotic revolution that might install an anti-Western administration.

Its quite telling to note that Egypt is now being ruled by the military. The military being VERY closely tied to the US, and receives billions in patronage money from the US. The current leader of the military, and ergo current de-facto sovereign leader of Egypt, had a nickname within the regime of "Mubarak's Poodle".

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Just with some new bells and whistles and some "democratic" bones tossed to the masses to help placate them.

Not sure if this take is the real story, but its an interesting idea to contemplate.

 

[HughJass]

You can skip down to the concluding paragraph if you don't want to read the entire thing. In a nutshell, the operatives who set up the social media infrastructure for all of these soft revolutions in the Middle East and Central Asia are funded by US intelligence interests per a documented "New Middle East" plan that was initiated under the Bush Administration and is now continuing to operate under Obama... the intent being one of taking down problematic Western puppet regimes and replacing them with more socially acceptable Western puppet regimes... in order to do this in an orderly, Western-controlled fashion rather than let the problematic regimes be taken down in a true chaotic revolution that might install an anti-Western administration.

I don't know if I buy that for a couple of reasons. You could see by the US government's statements that they were obviously VERY reluctant to call for any real change and were quite happy for Suileman to take the reigns knowing full well how unpopular he was. Also, I can't see how more a socially acceptable dictator would be considered anything less than a threat to the US's strategic objectives seeing as socially acceptable would mean do something about living conditions, maybe changing tact on Israel etc Those would be seen as a major threat, surely?

My guess is that Western leaders are going to be doing everything they can to make sure the military stays in power for as long as possible. They are the only institute in the country which are going to give them (our corrupt governments) everything they demand. But I don't think it will work for a couple of reasons- firstly the army seems very split with only the 3 stars and above, secret police, special forces and presidential guard remaining subserviant to western interests (not surprising considering they are the main benefactors of the aid money) with the regular army siding with the people, and secondly because the citizens have lost their fear of the authorities. I don't see how that genie is going back in the bottle.

Its quite telling to note that Egypt is now being ruled by the military. The military being VERY closely tied to the US, and receives billions in patronage money from the US. The current leader of the military, and ergo current de-facto sovereign leader of Egypt, had a nickname within the regime of "Mubarak's Poodle".

Here's an interesting bit-

I mean, another example is when the first M1 Abrams tanks came into the square on the Friday. I’m talking about when they were ordered to attack the crowds. I noticed that the coding on the front of the vehicle—it had Egyptian codings for the brigades and parachute units on the side, in Arabic and Arabic numerals. But on the front of the vehicle was a coding, which began MFR and then a series of numbers of each vehicle. And I actually took it down, and a parachute officer started shouting at me and told two soldiers to arrest me. And I actually ran away into the crowd to get away from them. And they chased me and then stopped, and obviously, confronted by about 10,000 demonstrators, decided better of it. And it seems that MFR stands for Mobile Force Reserve. And these are American-owned vehicles. These are American tactical deployment matériel, which is stored in Egypt, as it is also stored of course in Kuwait and now in Iraq for use in emergencies in the Gulf. Now, these vehicles, these tanks, which were threatening at that point the demonstrators, appear to have been vehicles that actually belong to the American military, not to the Egyptian military, but which were obviously used by the Egyptians in this instance. The Egyptians do make the Abrams tank and also have some of their own, but these vehicles appear to be vehicles that effectively belong to you or the Pentagon or whatever. The question is, did the Americans know they were being taken? Did they give permission for this?

http://antonyloewenstein.com/2011/02/10 ... democracy/

 

[Anarch]

Gaddafi tells Palestinians: revolt against Israel

http://af.reuters.com/article/tunisiaNews/idAFLDE71C0KP20110213?sp=true

Does this mean I'm a prophet? :shock: Nah…

BTW, I dislike both the PLA and the Zionists. May there be some kind of peace.

 

[HughJass]

So Abbas has called elections...

 

[Anarch]

So Abbas has called elections...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12445001

President Mahmoud Abbas will immediately ask Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to appoint a new cabinet.

On Saturday, the Palestinian Authority led by Mr Abbas said it seeks to hold presidential and legislative elections by September.

The move comes after the fall of Hosni Mubarak in popular protests in Egypt, an important neighbour.

:dunno:

 

[The Gardener]

Sharif don't like it...

 

[oni]

..........................Rocking the Casbah

 

[HughJass]

David Cameron's efforts to promote democracy in the Middle East by becoming the first foreign leader to visit Cairo were overshadowed as it emerged that he will spend the next three days touring undemocratic Gulf states with eight of Britain's leading defence manufacturers.

After a hastily convened stopover in Egypt, where he spoke of being "inspired" by protesters, the PM began a long-scheduled trade mission by landing in Kuwait, a key military ally. Britain has approved 1,155 arms export licences for Kuwait since 2003, worth a total of £102.3m, according the Campaign Against the Arms Trade.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011 ... ence-trade

classy

 

[Anarch]

Am I a prophet or what? At least better than Harold Camping, lol. :whistle:

 

[HughJass]

what piece of news are you using as proof of you prophecy, anarch

 

[Anarch]

what piece of news are you using as proof of you prophecy, anarch

it's been in the news lately. protests in israel have sparked IDF response. even today yahoo posted this

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110605/ap_ ... lestinians

like i said, the arab spring will go straight to israel because arabs see the jews as equal an oppressor as their own tyrants, and maybe even more-so

and by prophesy, i'm just being tongue-in-cheek.......it's purely obvious speculation

is it a genuine uprising? who knows?