What is the most effective way to lower Cholesterol?

[Guest]

Granted, HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors are a big step, but I'd much rather inhibit the synthesis of cholesterol and live 50 more years than inhibit 5AR and live another 25-30 if I have a genetic tendency towards high LDL and low HDL along with a family history of diabetes or hypertension.

i have a family history of diabetes and hypertension as well as a fam history of high LDL and low HDL. are you implying that there's a good chance i will only live into my late forties and early fifties if I stay on avodart?

 

[Felk]

Actually, with 5AR inhibitors the question that should be raised is, how much do these hormones truly increase the hormones testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. Testosterone's conversion to estrogen is of little importance to male pattern baldness sufferers other than the feminization it can sometimes cause in men on these drugs. Estrogen is a powerful anti-oxidant in blood and prevents the oxidation of LDL. However, progesterone antagonizes the effects of estrogen and prevents its anti-oxidant effects raising LDL levels and lowering HDL levels.

The 5AR enzyme not only catalyzes the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, but it also catalyzes the conversion of progesterone to dihydroprogesterone (a potent neurostimulator and likely what is missing when people complain of "brain fog"). Progesterone must be removed from the system to allow testosterone's conversion to estrogen to be beneficial and estrogen's full anti-oxidant effects to take shape.

Every man taking 5AR inhibitors will eventually end up with a lipoprotein profile that points to a risk for severe atherosclerosis and disease. Life style improvements are appreciated and recommended, but men on these drugs are simply working against both genetics and the drugs they are taking.

Are you sure about all this? Can one test their own "lipoprotein profile" somehow, and if so have any measurements been taken of finasteride or dutasteride users? If this is the case, Merck should be more open about it. Taking decades off millions of people's lives isn't exactly a light side effect.

I wonder if there are any potential solutions to this. From what I gather from what you've posted, the main problem here is too much progesterone, counteracting the beneficial effects of estrogen.

If there was a way to reduce progesterone safely without throwing every other hormone out of whack, would this help the situation?

 

[docj077]

Actually, with 5AR inhibitors the question that should be raised is, how much do these hormones truly increase the hormones testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. Testosterone's conversion to estrogen is of little importance to male pattern baldness sufferers other than the feminization it can sometimes cause in men on these drugs. Estrogen is a powerful anti-oxidant in blood and prevents the oxidation of LDL. However, progesterone antagonizes the effects of estrogen and prevents its anti-oxidant effects raising LDL levels and lowering HDL levels.

The 5AR enzyme not only catalyzes the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, but it also catalyzes the conversion of progesterone to dihydroprogesterone (a potent neurostimulator and likely what is missing when people complain of "brain fog"). Progesterone must be removed from the system to allow testosterone's conversion to estrogen to be beneficial and estrogen's full anti-oxidant effects to take shape.

Every man taking 5AR inhibitors will eventually end up with a lipoprotein profile that points to a risk for severe atherosclerosis and disease. Life style improvements are appreciated and recommended, but men on these drugs are simply working against both genetics and the drugs they are taking.

Are you sure about all this? Can one test their own "lipoprotein profile" somehow, and if so have any measurements been taken of finasteride or dutasteride users? If this is the case, Merck should be more open about it. Taking decades off millions of people's lives isn't exactly a light side effect.

I wonder if there are any potential solutions to this. From what I gather from what you've posted, the main problem here is too much progesterone, counteracting the beneficial effects of estrogen.

If there was a way to reduce progesterone safely without throwing every other hormone out of whack, would this help the situation?

Nope, not sure at all. I'm just saying that if our hormones increase in the manner I stated above, then it definitely isn't going to help everyone's cholesterol problem. But, I don't know if the shift is enough to cause a problem and I don't know how large the increase even is in the long run.

All that I wanted to do was post what these hormones due to the lipid profiles of women. I still need to do more research to see if the same effects happen in men. What is likely happening is that the increases aren't enough to do anything or they simply cancel each other out.

 

[Bryan]

It's all well and good to wonder about new information like this that comes out (the possible adverse effect of an increase in progesterone that might be caused by using 5a-reductase inhibitors), but before losing any sleep over that, is everybody doing the simple things to protect their hearts? Is everybody supplementing their diet with all the antioxidant nutrients known to inhibit LDL oxidation, avoiding oxidized fats like the plague, and using the other supplements that are known to be heart-healthy? Do the easy things FIRST, before you sweat the other more arcane and hypothetical details...

Bryan

 

[Felk]

Thanks for that Doctor. I always find your posts very enlightening, it's good to be thinking about what we're taking instead of just slamming the pills down, and you have a rather unique perspective on these drugs. Even if it is just speculation at this point.

Is everybody supplementing their diet with all the antioxidant nutrients known to inhibit LDL oxidation, avoiding oxidized fats like the plague, and using the other supplements that are known to be heart-healthy? Do the easy things FIRST, before you sweat the other more arcane and hypothetical details...

Bryan

I'd love to know, which are some of the antioxidant nutrients you personally take for this purpose, Bryan?

Antioxidants are something that recently have had me greatly interested. I went through the thread and found...

benefits of taking NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS like vitamins E and C, beta carotene, CoQ-10, selenium, the B vitamins (to reduce pro-oxidants like homocysteine), other potent antioxidants like BHT and BHA, etc.

and...

This conception is supported by animal studies showing that antioxidants such as probucol, butylated hydroxytoluene, and alpha-tocopherol can slow the progression of atherosclerosis. Epidemiological and clinical data indicate a protective role of dietary antioxidants against cardiovascular disease, including vitamin E, beta-carotene, and vitamin C

...but could you perhaps elaborate on which ones you personally take and why? Judging from the discussion, it would be enlightening

 

[mumuka]

Is everybody supplementing their diet with all the antioxidant nutrients known to inhibit LDL oxidation, avoiding oxidized fats like the plague, and using the other supplements that are known to be heart-healthy?

Bryan

Bryan ,please list a few supplements and foods what we should eat/avoid for a healty heart.Being a longtime finasteride user this stuff would be very helpfull to me. Thanks.

 

[docj077]

Thanks for that Doctor. I always find your posts very enlightening, it's good to be thinking about what we're taking instead of just slamming the pills down, and you have a rather unique perspective on these drugs. Even if it is just speculation at this point.

Like you said, it's just speculation. But, I just don't want such side effects to end up on the box for these drugs 5 or 10 years down the road and we didn't see it coming.

Play it safe and develop a good anti-oxidant regimen like Bryan recommends. In the end, it can only help.

 

[CCS]

how do we know which fats are oxidized? I know they are when they are spoiled, but no one would eat them then. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[docj077]

how do we know which fats are oxidized? I know they are when they are spoiled, but no one would eat them then. Is there something I'm missing?

We're talking about lipoproteins associated with cholesterol transport.

 

[mumuka]

Please in plain english,what should we avoid eating ?

 

[LookingGood!]

Granted, we may not be using adequete medical terminology to explain the need to lower LDL and raise HDL, but I think the point has been made. Large studies involving tens of thousands of patients prove that monitoring and maintaining a good lipoprotein profile leads to prolonged life expectancy and decreases your chances for a cardiac event or atherosclerosis.

Yes, and studies prove that castration will eliminate the susceptibility to male pattern balding. Should a young man undertake such a drastic action to protect his hair?

Bryan that is so extreme! Come on!

I think the idea of saving your hair stops at castration!

Just to clarify, I dont want to take statins b/c it's a personal thing but they are one of the most if not successful interventions in prolonging life, we just need to see more conclusive studies that elucidate that THEY are the reasons for prolonging patient's lives with heart disease. I do believe they are prolonging my dad's life b/c he had a mild MI in 1986 and uses 10 mg of lipitor and a nitro patch, along with basic exercise and diet. He is what we refer to as a the healthy heart patient.

You never really defined your approach utilizing antioxidants. You continue to generalize and it leaves everyone in suspense.(SIGH) :shock: You were very vague about it.

 

[sublime]

It's all well and good to wonder about new information like this that comes out (the possible adverse effect of an increase in progesterone that might be caused by using 5a-reductase inhibitors), but before losing any sleep over that, is everybody doing the simple things to protect their hearts? Is everybody supplementing their diet with all the antioxidant nutrients known to inhibit LDL oxidation, avoiding oxidized fats like the plague, and using the other supplements that are known to be heart-healthy? Do the easy things FIRST, before you sweat the other more arcane and hypothetical details...

Bryan

Now why would someone avoid fats? To arbitrarily advise people to avoid fats is like telling people to avoid fruits and veggies, it is not sensible.

 

[Bryan]

Are you talking to me? Who said anything about avoiding fats?

Bryan

 

[joseph49853]

Read this. It's from an actual chemist who has a deep understanding at the molecular level, as opposed to cardiologists and doctors who have a passing interest in reading anything other than what the big pharmaceuticals hand them.

http://health-fx.net/eBook.pdf

What's interesting to note, he's recently turned away from the dark side and has an interesting insider's perspective: including smashing the whole cholesterol myth, and admonishing current clinical practice for not focusing in on more important biomarkers and predictors.

Right now we're in the backseat being driven down the wrong road by the large pharmas; and they've locked the doors and removed all the seatbelts.

 

[docj077]

Read this. It's from an actual chemist who has a deep understanding at the molecular level, as opposed to cardiologists and doctors who have a passing interest in reading anything other than what the big pharmaceuticals hand them.

http://health-fx.net/eBook.pdf

What's interesting to note, he's recently turned away from the dark side and has an interesting insider's perspective: including smashing the whole cholesterol myth, and admonishing current clinical practice for not focusing in on more important biomarkers and predictors.

Right now we're in the backseat being driven down the wrong road by the large pharmas; and they've locked the doors and removed all the seatbelts.

I like how the author took the stupidity of the common gluttonous American and turned it on doctors and pharmaceutical companies.

Doctors know what is said in that article, but the sad part is that even the author twisted the truth. Statins are not proven to prevent heart disease, but they are proven to prolong life and that's really all that matters.

People need to stop blaming their healthcare providers and the companies supplying the drugs and start blaming themselves for how they treat their bodies.

 

[Bryan]

I'd love to know, which are some of the antioxidant nutrients you personally take for this purpose, Bryan?

I take most of the ones that have already been mentioned in this thread. The trick, though, is to take them consistently and in synergistic combinations and in proper doses. For example, I'm shocked at the number of people who, when I've asked them about their vitamin C intake, would say something like "I take three or four grams a day." So then I'd always say, "Great! In how many divided doses?" And then they would always seem puzzled, as if they didn't quite understand my question. So they'd say, "I just told you! I take three or four grams, once a day!"

Which isn't a particularly good idea, in my opinion. You want to take smaller amounts of vitamin C throughout the day for the best protection, as Pauling made clear. But that's the problem, I feel: many people take such supplements, but they do it in a rather haphazard manner without much thought or attention to detail. You need to take them intelligently, if you want them to do the most good.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

I cut a 1000mg vit C/500 mg bioflavonoid pill in half. I then cut the half in 3 pieces and take each third throughout the day. So 500mg per day. But I've been missing a few days lately. At least I take my apple polyphenols.

 

[Bryan]

Good idea, CCS!

I've been shocked in recent years about the trend toward individual vitamin C supplements which are getting larger and larger. Years ago, I actually used to be able to get 100 mg tablets. Then those went away, and the smallest available was 250 mg. Now those appear to be gone (at least, I haven't been able to find any), and 500 mg tablets are currently the smallest I can find. That's an obvious indication of how confident the public is getting at taking supplementary vitamin C: when I first started taking them about 37 years ago, people were worried that it might be REALLY DANGEROUS to take much more than the RDA (about 30-60 mg)!

Until very recently, I'd been using 250 mg vitamin C tabs from HEB grocery stores. They were neatly scored down the middle, and I could easily snap them into two pieces, each half being 125 mg. I'd take one of those halves several times throughout the day. Then a few months ago, I noticed that they weren't selling the 250's anymore. All they have now are 500's, and they aren't scored. Now I'm forced to break the 500's into halves (which requires some effort), and then break the halves into quarters. I am NOT a happy camper because of that! :evil:

Bryan

 

[docj077]

Good idea, CCS!

I've been shocked in recent years about the trend toward individual vitamin C supplements which are getting larger and larger. Years ago, I actually used to be able to get 100 mg tablets. Then those went away, and the smallest available was 250 mg. Now those appear to be gone (at least, I haven't been able to find any), and 500 mg tablets are currently the smallest I can find. That's an obvious indication of how confident the public is getting at taking supplementary vitamin C: when I first started taking them about 37 years ago, people were worried that it might be REALLY DANGEROUS to take much more than the RDA (about 30-60 mg)!

Until very recently, I'd been using 250 mg vitamin C tabs from HEB grocery stores. They were neatly scored down the middle, and I could easily snap them into two pieces, each half being 125 mg. I'd take one of those halves several times throughout the day. Then a few months ago, I noticed that they weren't selling the 250's anymore. All they have now are 500's, and they aren't scored. Now I'm forced to break the 500's into halves (which requires some effort), and then break the halves into quarters. I am NOT a happy camper because of that! :evil:

Bryan

I don't know if you guys are aware of this, but they do sell Vitamin C in an extended release form. 500 mg and 1000mg, I believe.

Personally, I take the 1000mg tablet twice per day. Once in the morning with breakfast and again before I go to bed.

 

[Bryan]

I don't really trust those extended-release forms.