Why you go bald...............the two genes that do it.....

[S Foote.]

No, not over a period of just a few days. Nobody knows the exact biochemical reason(s) for why scalp hair follicles eventually become sensitive to androgens after puberty.

But you are trying to claim that "YOU DO" know the biochemical reason why Bryan!

No, Stephen, I am most definitely NOT claiming that I know why that happens. I've suggested a couple of hypotheses (look up the word "hypothesis" in a dictionary to find out what that means) for that phenomenon, but I've never claimed that either of them is by any means conclusive.

[quote="S Foote."zdev82o]

WHAT doesn't happen in real life? I'm not clear what point it is that you're trying to make here.

Well you are on the record as claiming estrogen is "good" for hair growth, or at least not as bad as t or the DHT that would be produced in those whole follicle cultures. So you can't see a problem with those results then Bryan? :whistle:

LOL! That was your only point of posting that? Just that contrary result with the estrogen? Okay, Stephen, whatever...

Answer the question that I asked you.

Huh??

You claim you know a study that proves me wrong Bryan. So post it!

What's up Mcfly chicken??

ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT I ASKED YOU. I want to see if I can get you to commit yourself to an honest response BEFORE you see the results of any scientific experiment. You have a long history of trying to twist and distort the results of scientific experiments that disprove your bizarre theory about balding, so I'm making you agree to the ground rules BEFORE you hear the results of any new ones! :nono:[/quotezdev82o]

The ground rules are real science Bryan! So whats your problem?

Post the study for God's sake! Do you really expect me to just accept what "YOUR" interpretation of this is?? You claim this study proves me wrong, so prove me wrong!!! What do you want, a drumroll! :roll:

Your obvious attempt to prime people with the idea i won't except a proven scientific argument is pathetic! I wont except your "word" that scientific data means something it doesn't, thats a different thing :nono:

And i am sure by now everyone can see that you always avoid the questions i ask you, and just throw out more questions to me. :roll:

The latest example is your avoidence of my point about follicle stem cells, and how this disproves the claim you made in this thread about a time delay in androgen response. You convieniently snip this out of your quotes of my post, as people will note! :whistle:

Your lack of any genuine scientific responses in these debates, doesn't get you any credibility Bryan! :nono:

S Foote.

 

[michael barry]

http://www.med.muni.cz/biomedjournal/pd ... /49_58.pdf



CCS, there is the fluridil hirsutism study. There is a nice picture therein detailing a moustache on an older woman who saw it pretty much go away with topical fluridil usage.


There are three pretty decent fluridil "regrowth" photos showing about as much efficacy as you'd expect with finasteride. Its on their site if you look for it.

There has only been one other fluridil study that I know of, the one thats been discussed for a few years, etc.

 

[michael barry]

Stephen there does not have to be ANY in built difference between balding follicles and occipital ones. Balding follicles simply have many more androgen receptors.


If DHT is somewhat poisionous to a follicle, a follicle could "drink" small amounts of it and not show much wear, but if a follicle has many more androgen receptors and drinks a lot of the poison.......................it will die.




Stephen, It would REALLY BE NICE if you were right about baldness, and we just had too much blood pressure in our scalps. That could be counteracted manually a few times a day with some cold or squeezing of the scalp, etc. But its not right. Im not really willing to go into it deeply because Im pretty excited about new methodologies on the horizon (Aderans in phase two trials here in the United States, ACELL being tested by Dr. Robert Jones, Follica's research in testing in a wounding-only trial at Harvard). The future is here..............

 

[chore boy]

I'm out of my league getting involved in this discussion and therefore, I will not. I saw the thread and was reminded of something I read a while back that I'm absolutely sure you advanced posters are well aware of. My reason for posting it is that I've yet to see a contradictory argument to explain the sparing of a woman's hairline in Androgenetic Alopecia. I'll go find something else to do now.

"androstenedione to the estrogens, estradiol and estrone, respectively. It was also found that inwomen, there may be a two- to fivefold greater amount of aromatase in female scalp versus malescalp, perhaps explaining why women may havea sparing of the frontal hairline in Androgenetic Alopecia, and aswell, why women may have a less severe patternof hair loss than men. It is uncertain if the estrogens formed from aromatase are playing a role in suppressing the severity of hair loss, or whether aromatase is primarily reducing the overall load of androgens formed locally in the hair follicle."

http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:On ... cd=3&gl=us

 

[wookster]

Answer the question that I asked you.

Is this a hairloss discussion or a poker game? Put all the cards on the table buddy :woot:

 

[wookster]

Stephen there does not have to be ANY in built difference between balding follicles and occipital ones. Balding follicles simply have many more androgen receptors.


If DHT is somewhat poisionous to a follicle, a follicle could "drink" small amounts of it and not show much wear, but if a follicle has many more androgen receptors and drinks a lot of the poison.......................it will die.




Stephen, It would REALLY BE NICE if you were right about baldness, and we just had too much blood pressure in our scalps. That could be counteracted manually a few times a day with some cold or squeezing of the scalp, etc. But its not right. Im not really willing to go into it deeply because Im pretty excited about new methodologies on the horizon (Aderans in phase two trials here in the United States, ACELL being tested by Dr. Robert Jones, Follica's research in testing in a wounding-only trial at Harvard). The future is here..............

What is the genetic difference between a balding scalp hair follicle and a growing body-hair follicle? DHT is bad for one but good for the other because of some type of gene difference?

Hair that is transplanted from the body to the scalp takes on some of the characteristics of scalp hair to a certain degree. There must be some causal factors associated with the surrounding tissues with respect to the growth characteristics of the hair itself. If it is only a gene difference between scalp hair follicles and body-hair follicles then that would be the easy answer ... just see what the difference in the genetic machinery between the two are.

 

[Bryan]

What is the genetic difference between a balding scalp hair follicle and a growing body-hair follicle? DHT is bad for one but good for the other because of some type of gene difference?

Very good question. I hope they figure it out.

If it is only a gene difference between scalp hair follicles and body-hair follicles then that would be the easy answer ... just see what the difference in the genetic machinery between the two are.

Easier said than done.

 

[wookster]

What is the deterministic cellular internal genetic gene expressive machinery that causes a difference between a scalp hair that withers in the presence of DHT and a body hair that grows in the presence of DHT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_differentiation

In developmental biology, cellular differentiation is the process by which a less specialized cell becomes a more specialized cell type. Differentiation occurs numerous times during the development of a multicellular organism as the organism changes from a single zygote to a complex system of tissues and cell types. Differentiation is a common process in adults as well: adult stem cells divide and create fully-differentiated daughter cells during tissue repair and during normal cell turnover. Differentiation dramatically changes a cell's size, shape, membrane potential, metabolic activity, and responsiveness to signals. These changes are largely due to highly-controlled modifications in gene expression.

 

[ChrisJ]

Good grief.



Lemmee see................scientist conduct tests on THOUSANDS of men, and conclude that men who have a particular variant of the androgen receptor, and some genes at the 20,11,22 locus on chromosome 20 are something like 700% more likely to go bald.



And out of that Wook is STILL insisting on "environmental factors".



My dad is bald, but his brother, just three years younger, has ALL OF HIS HAIR in his 50's. Grew up in the same house, used the same shampoos, eat the same stuff. My dad's brother HAS DIABETES ALSO. That thick thatchy head of hair he has always had is still up there.



My mother's father was bald from his thirties onward, yet his son (my uncle from that side) has all his hair in his fifties, with no recession or thinning. A head of hair like Blagoyovich, but with much better styling. He is overweight, probably boderline diabetic.

Stumptailed macaques, chimpanzees, orangutans.........................what environmental factors would THEY have that makes them so oft lose their hair on top of their heads? Why is finasteride effective for them? Why is finasteride effective for humans? The researchers dont have it wrong Wook. They have it exactly right. Baldness assuredly gets exacerbated by lifestyle choices and sped up, but its utterly genetic in origin and healthy eating people do indeed go bald. Look at Joseph Mercola, a health nut if there ever was one, and bald as a beet.

Umm your anectodal stories dont make a difference really.

By Will Dunham

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Comprehensive lifestyle changes including a better diet and more exercise can lead not only to a better physique, but also to swift and dramatic changes at the genetic level, U.S. researchers said on Monday.

In a small study, the researchers tracked 30 men with low-risk prostate cancer who decided against conventional medical treatment such as surgery and radiation or hormone therapy.

The men underwent three months of major lifestyle changes, including eating a diet rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes and soy products, moderate exercise such as walking for half an hour a day, and an hour of daily stress management methods such as meditation.

As expected, they lost weight, lowered their blood pressure and saw other health improvements. But the researchers found more profound changes when they compared prostate biopsies taken before and after the lifestyle changes.

After the three months, the men had changes in activity in about 500 genes -- including 48 that were turned on and 453 genes that were turned off.
....

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNe ... 3420080617

So the fact is we do not know. Having a better diet and exercising and reducing stress is good for your over all life quality. So why not do it? It may help the hair too.

ITS SAD that some people want to blame themselves for baldness, and refuse to believe that inheriting two genes in particular are what gives them the condition. There may be a couple of more genes involved, but obviously as the researchers noted: these are the two primary genes.

So you are biased towards a 100% genetic explanation because you dont want to blame yourself for your hair loss?

Well, even if environmental factors have some effects on hair loss, why would you blame yourself? I didnt have a good diet when I was a teenager but I dont blame myself, I just didnt realize its importance. And then sometimes noone knows. Everyone thought wholewheat was better than white but turns out its incorrect.
So I guess the issue isnt blaming yourself but trying your best, eventho it sounds corny.

 

[Bryan]

Everyone thought wholewheat was better than white but turns out its incorrect.

You think white is better than wholewheat?

 

[michael barry]

Chris J,


Gee, I guess those balding macaques, balding orangutans, and balding chimps just need to make "lifestyle changes" and they'd keep their hair. Its not genetic or anything.



Science has found that men who have TWO genes are 700% more likely to go bald. Chris J thinks we can eat/or not eat "something" that will turn them on or off.



Vegetarains go bald, meat eaters go bald, ancients went bald (Ive personally seen a vase at the New York Met Museum of Art from 1500 BC out of Crete, depicting a NW7 fisherman----quite bald, what did they eat BACK THEN, what environmental stress were they under BACK THEN that made them go bald).


If you have an ugly face, its genetic.

If you were born with thin hair, its genetic.

If you are tall, its genetic.


If you grow a thick beard, its genetic.


If you have a hairy chest, its genetic.



If you have long fingers and short toes, its genetic.


But if you go bald...............there are people who look for everything under the sun to explain that its not genetic, so strong is their desire to not believe that somethings "amiss" about their genes.



Those macaques, orangutans, and chimps have uber-natural diets, yet still exhibit baldness. Explain that, because your silly equivocations PROVE NOTHING.

 

[Andrea]

I wonder why the baldness could start in EVERY MOMENT after the puberty.
What is the trigger? Why some people starts to going bald at 35/40 years old ?
I don't ever seen a boy that develop his beard or any other features at 35...
Don't forget that the genes could be repressed or derepressed...
The EPIgenetic is a very interesting subject.
Bye

Andrea

Sorry for my English

 

[ChrisJ]

Everyone thought wholewheat was better than white but turns out its incorrect.

You think white is better than wholewheat?

It's not a personal opinion but results of research

Everyone knows that whole wheat breads are the best and white bread is the worst. Where's the news there?

Well, prepare to be surprised.
....
All of the participants in the study were overweight men between 50 and 60 years old. Which bread was most beneficial?

Sourdough.

After eating sourdough bread the men had the most positive body responses, including lower blood sugar levels. The worst bread turned out to be not white, but whole wheat. Whole-wheat bread caused spikes in blood sugar levels that continued until well after lunch. Even the whole wheat plus barley bread was worse than the white.

http://www.sixwise.com/Newsletters/2008 ... thiest.htm

 

[ChrisJ]

Chris J,


Gee, I guess those balding macaques, balding orangutans, and balding chimps just need to make "lifestyle changes" and they'd keep their hair. Its not genetic or anything.

Michael Barry, DO YOU NOT READ?

Noone is saying hair loss is not genetic. We are saying environmental factors may have some effects. Get it? I'm not gonna bother with most of the rest of your post except this because it's a good example.

If you are tall, its genetic.

If you have "tallness genes", you will still have a range for height which will be determined by environmental factors altho mean of that range would be higher than general population mean.

Dont tell me good nutrition does not effect height. However, despite great nutrition, some people never get tall, altho they'd be shorter with worse nutrition.

 

[michael barry]

Alright Crhis J,

Just respond to this:

Vegetarains go bald, meat eaters go bald, ancients went bald (Ive personally seen a vase at the New York Met Museum of Art from 1500 BC out of Crete, depicting a NW7 fisherman----quite bald, what did they eat BACK THEN, what environmental stress were they under BACK THEN that made them go bald).

The only thing that the NW7 fisherman that I saw on a Cretian vase from 1500 BC. could have possibly eaten that wasn't natural was breads. I mean hell, everything they ate back then was natural. Beer, wine, bread were about the only foodstuffs that were processed in anyway unless you include olive oils. Im sure that foods out of boxes and candies probably aren't good for us, however we have to go back to the ancients to find out what maladies were there before modern processed foods.

Ive seen many medieval artworks depicting balding prophets (Paul is almost always depicted as bald or balding). Breads, beers, and pastas were about the only "processed" foods back then. Meat, which is eaten everywhere, obviously doesn't contribute to baldness (because everybody would have it). Fish is consumed by some Amazonian tribes which have no baldness period.


Out of that information...................only breads (wheat-derived foodstuffs) and pastas could I conclude *might* have a bad effect on hair.


I will concede that the info you posted about genes being turned off by months of good dieting is indeed interesting. Im glad I generally eat fairly healthy.

 

[wookster]

Out of that information...................only breads (wheat-derived foodstuffs) and pastas could I conclude *might* have a bad effect on hair.


I will concede that the info you posted about genes being turned off by months of good dieting is indeed interesting. Im glad I generally eat fairly healthy.

Insulin is an interesting hormone that warrants further investigation. :woot:

What is the connection between DHT and insulin? High insulin levels as one possible factor in the many factored cause of male pattern baldness would agree with Foote's theory?

http://www.etcri.com/hyperinsulinemia.htm

EFFECTS OF HYPERINSULINEMIA
One might say: "Look - even though my insulin levels are high [because of my weight], its getting the job done, and I feel OK - so what's the big deal?"

The big deal is that recent medical research has shown that severely elevated insulin levels cause salt and water retention, as well as causing blood vessels to constrict (squeeze shut) thereby leading to swelling and high blood pressure.

Over a long period of time, hyperinsulinemia (high insulin levels) can worsen cholesterol levels, causing high cholesterol and atherosclerosis (hardening of the arteries) as well. The combination of high cholesterol build-up and high blood pressure can then lead to an increase in the probability of suffering from strokes, heart attacks, heart failure, and kidney disease...

 

[wookster]

Low insulin appears to be very beneficial for increasing life expectancy.

http://www.longevityconsortium.org/projects/

Insulin Signaling Gene Expression in Long-lived Mice

We hypothesize that the remarkable longevity of Ames dwarf (Prop1df) mice and growth hormone receptor knockout (GHR-KO) mice is due to reduced insulin levels and enhanced sensitivity to insulin. We believe that these physiological changes are reflected in altered gene expression in the pancreas and in different insulin/IGF-1 target organs (e.g. muscle, liver, heart), and result in a slowing of the aging process and increases in the efficiency of mechanisms important to long term survival, e.g. stress resistance.

 

[wookster]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=identical-twins-exhibit-d

Identical Twins Exhibit Differences in Gene Expression

At first glance identical twins seem, well, identical. In fact many of these sibling pairs show minor physical variations and differences in characteristics such as susceptibility to disease. Just what causes these dissimilarities is unclear. But a new report further suggests that epigenetic factors--that is, differences in how the genome is expressed--could be responsible.

Mario F. Fraga of the Spanish National Cancer Center and his colleagues studied 160 monozygous twins ranging from three to 74 years of age. They analyzed two epigenetic phenomena along the entire genome and compared the results for each set of twins. The processes, DNA methylation and histone acetylation, both govern gene expression and can amplify or dampen the effects of particular genes. The team determined that early in life, twins were indistinguishable in the manner in which their genes were expressed. Among older sets of twins, however, significant differences in the gene-expression portraits were apparent for 35 percent of the study group. (The image above shows methylation patterns for three-year-old twins (left) and 50-year-old twins (right), with the differences highlighted in red.) In addition, twins who had spent the most time apart and had more divergent medical histories exhibited the greatest epigenetic differences.

Environmental factors, including smoking habits, physical activity levels and diet, can influence epigenetic patterns and may help explain how the same genotype can be translated in different ways, the scientists say. They suggest that future studies should investigate specific mechanisms that cause this so-called epigenetic drift in identical twins. A report describing the work is published online this week by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

 

[michael barry]

Wook,

The epigenetic studies among twins are very very interesting. Ive said for years that I'd LOVE to see the results of twin studies on twins who were given a good, healthy diet vs. one who ate a bunch of modern processed foods, sodas, and fast food.

You'd think the NHI would do this with rats and mice, so the studies could be "sped up" some. I'd love to see the results, hence my excitement about the PSA levels, prostate sizes, and DHT levels in mice that were given black tea to drink daily.

 

[wookster]

Wook,

The epigenetic studies among twins are very very interesting. Ive said for years that I'd LOVE to see the results of twin studies on twins who were given a good, healthy diet vs. one who ate a bunch of modern processed foods, sodas, and fast food.

You'd think the NHI would do this with rats and mice, so the studies could be "sped up" some. I'd love to see the results, hence my excitement about the PSA levels, prostate sizes, and DHT levels in mice that were given black tea to drink daily.

There could also be other factors. Where I work, I have observed over the years that working many hours of overtime year after year has taken a toll on many of the people there. There are many people with increased deposits of belly fat and about 75% of all the males have more advanced stages of male pattern baldness.

I wonder if high stress and cortisol makes any difference in the rate of male pattern balding?