Age, DHT levels, prevalence of balding and oxidative stress

[NicholasLim]

Hi ,there

this thread is getting really complicated as i am not a medical student and dont have that much of time to go through 8 pages of facts and quotation , even if i do i wont understand most of the terms

Can you guys state what diet is most likely of help with male pattern baldness here and what might accelerate it THX

 

[tino]

Hi ,there

this thread is getting really complicated as i am not a medical student and dont have that much of time to go through 8 pages of facts and quotation , even if i do i wont understand most of the terms

Can you guys state what diet is most likely of help with male pattern baldness here and what might accelerate it THX

NAC 1800-2000 mg tgl.


Vit C 2000 mg tgl .

Ein Vitamin B Komplex 1 time day.

Copper 1 mg tgl


Vit E 400 ug tgl


Zink 30-40 mg tgl

Folic acid 10 mg tgl.


IRON (SCHOULD BE ABOUT 70-80),

Selenium 100-300 mg tgl


Melatonin 1-3 mg evening.


One Multimineral and one Multivitaminpräpperat


Aminoampulle high concentrated

High proteine diet.

Acetyl-LCarnitin 2 Gramm day.

Biotin 10 mg day

But that is just an addition to non supplemet diet.The normal nutriton must be also allright.Vegetarien is not good,and no or few milk is also not good.



That all together helps regrowth.

 

[Jkkezh]

Aminoampulle high concentrated

High proteine diet.

Acetyl-LCarnitin 2 Gramm day.

Biotin 10 mg day

But that is just an addition to non supplemet diet.The normal nutriton must be also allright.Vegetarien is not good,and no or few milk is also not good.



That all together helps regrowth.

Are you sure about the high protein diet? I have read reports that the excessive consumption of protein in western diets can cause problems. I had a good article about this will try and see if I can find it again.

It is true that the hair needs sufficient protein to grow, but I think too much is not good.

 

[tino]

Especially in the regenerating phase under medical treatment,is it very important to suplly higher protein to the Hair follicle.I kow that there are non published investigations,which schow benefit.And in general,it correlates positiv whith circulating igf-1.


I cant tell you how much exact....but i think over the daily requirement,because tissue is sick and has to regenerate.

 

[michael barry]

Tino wrote:

you make me sick Its not allright to imply that i belive in a triggering effect of shampoos!I never said something like that.Its saddening that people like you,apparently dont understand the modern view on male pattern baldness as a multifactorial disease.

Just hysterical. You too Harold. WHAT DOCTORS ARE SAYING MALE PATTERN BALDNESS IS A MULTIFACTORAL DISEASE? None!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ancient Greeks griped about going bald, a Roman Senator even wrote a book about Baldness, the oldest (known) baldness remedy dates from Ancient friggin' Egypt. I have seen a painting on a Cretian Vase that dates from 1500 BC with a Bald fisherman depicted upon it who was NW7 with a full beard. NO DOCTORS I KNOW OF HAVE SUGGESTED ANY SUCH CRAP.




Again, Apes GODDAMMIT. Stuptailed macaques, bonaboos, orangutans ALL BALD WITH regularity. Their diet is as fukking natural as you can get.




You are wasting your time hoping to find some miracle supplement that will make your hair not hit the drain. Dr. Angela Christiano has lately found another gene associated with baldness (discussed on Dr. Bernstein's website). 3 have already been found. One a variant of the androgen receptor gene inherited from the mother. Im afraid supplements like selenium, etc. wont stop these things...............................................good nutrition sure isn't helping the apes.



I have a feeling you might be one of the natural -nuts who "attacks" this website. We have seen em' in the past. Doctor got into with one of them who was just sure that "cooked fat" was why people went bald, another (some "bobmer'') was just sure that chairs (yes, chairs!!!!) did something to circulation that caused an immuno response on the head along with modern diets. PLENTY OF MEN WITH FULL HEADS OF HAIR EAT LOUSY DIETS, NOT JUST MY TWO UNCLES.

Whatever.........................go ahead and waste your time.

 

[purecontrol]

The difference is that people are getting baldness, type 2 diabetes, ect ect 20-40 years earlier than what was seen before.

Of course there are always going to be exceptions, but now days it is not uncomon at all to see young kids with these problems.

Oxidative stress is a huge factor, we have to consider that fact that even if you stop all the DHT you will still continue to lose hair. Hell even women lose hair, take a look of women from teens to 30s, there is hair loss there and for some very serious.

Bad estrogens and higher levels of DHT in these women play a large part, but the rest is from general oxidative stress ie inflamation.

 

[NicholasLim]

Tino wrote:

You are wasting your time hoping to find some miracle supplement that will make your hair not hit the drain. Dr. Angela Christiano has lately found another gene associated with baldness (discussed on Dr. Bernstein's website). 3 have already been found. One a variant of the androgen receptor gene inherited from the mother. Im afraid supplements like selenium, etc. wont stop these things...............................................good nutrition sure isn't helping the apes.

Hey can you explain a bit more about the 3 genes found ? thx you

 

[docj077]

Aminoampulle high concentrated

High proteine diet.

Acetyl-LCarnitin 2 Gramm day.

Biotin 10 mg day

But that is just an addition to non supplemet diet.The normal nutriton must be also allright.Vegetarien is not good,and no or few milk is also not good.



That all together helps regrowth.

Are you sure about the high protein diet? I have read reports that the excessive consumption of protein in western diets can cause problems. I had a good article about this will try and see if I can find it again.

It is true that the hair needs sufficient protein to grow, but I think too much is not good.

It is a very bad idea. Especially, in men. High protein diets (and high IGF-1) are associated with increased cancer risks. As many others before us have said, the key is a balanced diet.

 

[docj077]

The difference is that people are getting baldness, type 2 diabetes, ect ect 20-40 years earlier than what was seen before.

Of course there are always going to be exceptions, but now days it is not uncomon at all to see young kids with these problems.

Oxidative stress is a huge factor, we have to consider that fact that even if you stop all the DHT you will still continue to lose hair. Hell even women lose hair, take a look of women from teens to 30s, there is hair loss there and for some very serious.

Bad estrogens and higher levels of DHT in these women play a large part, but the rest is from general oxidative stress ie inflamation.

You are aware that many, many laboratory tests that are supposed to demonstrate the inhibitory effects of androgens on hair growth use testosterone and not dihydrotestosterone, I hope? These tests typically take place in conditions that promote proper hair growth, free radicals or no free radicals, so it's pretty safe to assume all androgens including those secreted by the adrenals (because they can be peripherally converted to potent androgens, as well) can cause male pattern baldness. DHT just makes the system more efficient as it increases the strength of the response and the duration.

 

[tino]

Tino wrote:

you make me sick Its not allright to imply that i belive in a triggering effect of shampoos!I never said something like that.Its saddening that people like you,apparently dont understand the modern view on male pattern baldness as a multifactorial disease.

Just hysterical. You too Harold. WHAT DOCTORS ARE SAYING MALE PATTERN BALDNESS IS A MULTIFACTORAL DISEASE? None!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ancient Greeks griped about going bald, a Roman Senator even wrote a book about Baldness, the oldest (known) baldness remedy dates from Ancient friggin' Egypt. I have seen a painting on a Cretian Vase that dates from 1500 BC with a Bald fisherman depicted upon it who was NW7 with a full beard. NO DOCTORS I KNOW OF HAVE SUGGESTED ANY SUCH CRAP.


I must assume that you never read only ONE Puplication about the modern View on male pattern baldness in humans.Further i must assume,that you are more familiar whith monkeys and old scientific non valid deliverances from "stone age".You really should research more international.


Again, Apes GODDAMMIT. Stuptailed macaques, bonaboos, orangutans ALL BALD WITH regularity. Their diet is as fukking natural as you can get.


This does not exclude othe additive triggers.Or did you watched the different progression speed of this male pattern baldness in apes,over a long period?


You are wasting your time hoping to find some miracle supplement that will make your hair not hit the drain. Dr. Angela Christiano has lately found another gene associated with baldness (discussed on Dr. Bernstein's website). 3 have already been found. One a variant of the androgen receptor gene inherited from the mother. Im afraid supplements like selenium, etc. wont stop these things...............................................good nutrition sure isn't helping the apes.


Angela Christiano is not the navel of the world.Evidence for more genetic eccept the AR is in Fact rare....but if someone is familar whith male pattern baldness,than he knows that Genes which are relevant for diseases,and which are associated with male pattern baldness,may also play a role there.The more genes,the earlyer the male pattern baldness starts.This overrides extrinsic triggers.Not so strong genetic is depend on triggers for premature outbreak of male pattern baldness. What are possible candidate genes in your opinion?Which genes?

Hamilton only castraded,or watched a few castraded twins(one none castrated),from which the non castraded was getting bald,when testosterone was injected to him.The only proove here is,that he catced one haplotype,in which the Androgenic Factors are most relevant.Do you really think that if he were still alive,and he would castrade the Finasteride non responders whith almost normal repeat lenghts,that this would also slow their male pattern baldness significant?

Every other Castration and hair story,from egypt harems etc depends on deliverances,and not on scientific valid stuff.Postpubertal castration only slows the progression of male pattern baldness.

I have a feeling you might be one of the natural -nuts who "attacks" this website. We have seen em' in the past. Doctor got into with one of them who was just sure that "cooked fat" was why people went bald, another (some "bobmer'') was just sure that chairs (yes, chairs!!!!) did something to circulation that caused an immuno response on the head along with modern diets. PLENTY OF MEN WITH FULL HEADS OF HAIR EAT LOUSY DIETS, NOT JUST MY TWO UNCLES.


You dont understand nothing.Seems that you are hysteric,and afraid that someone attacks your male pattern baldness pathogenetic beliefs

 

[tino]

Aminoampulle high concentrated

High proteine diet.

Acetyl-LCarnitin 2 Gramm day.

Biotin 10 mg day

But that is just an addition to non supplemet diet.The normal nutriton must be also allright.Vegetarien is not good,and no or few milk is also not good.



That all together helps regrowth.

Are you sure about the high protein diet? I have read reports that the excessive consumption of protein in western diets can cause problems. I had a good article about this will try and see if I can find it again.

It is true that the hair needs sufficient protein to grow, but I think too much is not good.

It is a very bad idea. Especially, in men. High protein diets (and high IGF-1) are associated with increased cancer risks. As many others before us have said, the key is a balanced diet.

IGF- one only growts magline tissue.It s not the cause...the root of Cancer.I think people whith a familiaer history of Cancer shoud be carefoul.For general health,higher IGF-1 is good.

 

[tino]

Let me try to understand your point michael.


Correct me if im wrong.

You think that unknown genetic is only localized in the hair follicle,and Androgenes are the key to awake the bad influence of this unknown local follicle specific genes,which makes the follicle androgen sensitive.Further you know,that male pattern baldness affected males have a polymorphism in the AR.This polymorpism causes abnormal strong androgen action.Together this leads to male pattern baldness.In your opinion,castration or strong androgen receptor blockade,will be able to solve the hall problem.

Am i right,that the system of castrated males,runs in a kind of sparse flame,because there are more hormones than only testosterone dropped-Estrogen and igf-1 for example?For me it looks if everything in their metabolic activitys runs slower.That includes the metabolic activitys of the hair follicles too,there is not more much,what can induce anabolic overload.Anyway,noone could bring a definitive proove,that postpubertaer castrated males,wont adept further hair aging.This author Whiting( look at the studys me and bryan discused),says that postpubertal castration is no guarantee for absolut no further progression of male pattern baldness,and castrated men do not regrowth.And such a thing,where however the mean switcher(androgen action),is blocked.

If we assume that other systemic genes and triggers still have an influence to the castraded mens hair follicle,than the Argument from whiting and others makes sense.Aggravating is the missing estrogen protection of their hair follicles.Estrogen is not only an androgen action inhibiting,or SHBG increasing hormone-it is one of the most potent Antioxidants.Lower levels are associated whith aging in general.Include hair aging.

Even if you were right,and only sytstemic androgenic influence and local genetic sensivity are the absolute truth,than there is no proove,that the missing hair growth protecting and producing hormones in castrated males,wont weakening the resistance of the hair follicle to other factors.And also no proove,that the bad local genetic,does not react in general whith other influences-without the aspect of missing estrogen.

Can you tell me why senil balding goes on whith low DHT,low testosterone,and low estrogen?

There is a work about that,but i cant find it anymore.

In this work

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

Dr trueb advices at this EHRS Abstract.I dont have the full text here,maby someone else?

i will search again later.

 

[michael barry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn745EQh8iU


Gee, "oxidative stress" didn't cause this woman's hair to fall out. Nope, it was just testosterone treatment. Diet didn't change, hmm..........nope, just testosterone treatment. I wonder what "stone age" "triggers" might have caused her to have that moustache and aged her skin and made her head hair go?


Apes and humans share over 98% of the same genes and developed from the same genetic ancestor millions of years ago.



Finasteride "non-responders" ? If you are old and have lost your hair, finas isn't going to "get it back". Even dutasteride doesn't get one much hair back. Ive seen the pictures and linked them. Finasteride slows baldness and might regrow a little vertex hair. I have never heard anyone deny that castration does not stop further baldness in Androgenetic Alopecia. Duke researchers concluded that it was pretty much a stop to further baldness, but according to "Tino" all the docs are wrong, and their is some "trigger" in people's diets-----amazing. It sounds like something someone would read on MPP-research's scammy website




Picture of a woman before and after taking testosterone, http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200509/ ... _107.jhtml
Pretty much says it all no?


Picture of her (she's still a woman) and her TWIN sister, http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200509/ ... _109.jhtml


Picture of a another woman and -her-twin sister, http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200509/ ... _102.jhtml


.............................yup, just some "trigger" from eating whatever. Human beings are omnivoires, evolved to eat anything they can get their hands on. Finasteride only inhibits 65-70% of DHT creation. It doesn't get it all. Researchers in S. Korea thought Dutasteride could "pretty much stop further balding" alone. One is still uptaking other androgens when on a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor.

The pictures of the women, and a study I read about a group of them on testosterone therapy in which half developed some progression of Male Pattern Baldness all the way to the NW7 level, show one big thing..........................males and females both go Male Pattern Bald roughly half the time if given testosterone. A man makes his naturally and of course doesn't need injections. This is not "BELIEF", but proven, observed scientific fact. I can cut and paste this post over and over forever, and it will disprove anything about "dietary" triggers in someone's genetics. Vegans bald, super-healthy food folks go bald, professional athletes with private chefs bald, people in the distant past who ate natural diets balded and our primate ancestors bald.

James Hamilton showed he could initiate baldness in those castrates who were predisposed and he could stop it when he quite giving them testosterone-----whats all the fuss----the Greeks noticed that eunuchs didn't go bald even if all the other male victims in a castrates family did bald. "Tino" has tried to "slip in" a few whoppers suggesting that castaration doesn't stop further baldness, but its nowhere in the literature.



Pictures are worth a thousand words Tino---pictures of women who go Male Pattern Bald with testosterone pretty much say it all.

Chris Penn, http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN looks alot like a few men I know personally. He was over 320 lbs when he died at 40. He ate alot, obviously. The guys I know whoof down cheesburgers and cokes like anybody else, are fat, dont excercise, and are otherwis lab-geeks. Like Penn, they have all their hair and one is getting near fifty. Teenage hairlines. If ever anybody should have tripped a "dietary trigger" (and they probably have---for heart disease) these two should have.



You never have answered anything Ive posed truthfully Tino...........................exceedingly dishonest and never answer direct queries with direct answers. Anyone who has dealt with liars sees the techniques and knows its not worth their time.

 

[tino]

You never have answered anything Ive posed truthfully Tino...........................exceedingly dishonest and never answer direct queries with direct answers. Anyone who has dealt with liars sees the techniques and knows its not worth their time.


Thats exactly your behavour You swich away from arguments of mine,you wont answer!



I give you an example.

You wrote:Finasteride "non-responders" ? If you are old and have lost your hair, finas isn't going to "get it back". Even dutasteride doesn't get one much hair back. Ive seen the pictures and linked them. Finasteride slows baldness and might regrow a little vertex hair. I have never heard anyone deny that castration does not stop further baldness in Androgenetic Alopecia. Duke researchers concluded that it was pretty much a stop to further baldness, but according to "Tino" all the docs are wrong, and their is some "trigger" in people's diets-----amazing. It sounds like something someone would read on MPP-research's scammy website

I adviced you more than one time to a study.This study does not say,that Finasteride correlated negative whith some male pattern baldness probands,because they were old,peculiar because they hat longer CAG Repeats in the AR Gen.That means,that they had no strong androgenic influence.But they had so called male pattern baldness.The other group had short repeats,what means,that there is in fact strong androgenic influence.They respond well.

The second point which characterizes the behavour you suppose me,is that you seem to completly ignore prooven Facts,that there is a wrong redox modulation between Androgenic influence in male pattern baldness and general,and the Results Balding or other diseases.No comment about the work of Dr trueb i have postet in the last posting.No comment about other prooven,or approved triggering factors like Iron,thyroid imbalance or Stress.For you,this cognitions do not exist.

I think you cant belive that other influences can induce hair follicle apoptosis,cause you strong belive that castration makes Hairfollicles absoloutly invulnerable.No Duke researcher would have such a illegitimate point of wiev.All the Duke researchers know exactly what all can induce apoptosis.In Fact,not scientific active docs do not know much about new cognitions.I listen to dermatological further educations,and i saw that Duke researchers do not feed little docs whith all the new cognitions.They treat them like little sheeps.Go and ask Prof Ulrike Blume Peytavy,or Prof Ralf Paus,and Dr Trueb.Or ask Stenn.They will tell you how it is.

What do you think happens,when you are castrated,and vegetarian whith long time iron deficiency.Or zinc deficiency,bad adjusted thyroid disease,malnutrition?

you wrote:Gee, "oxidative stress" didn't cause this woman's hair to fall out. Nope, it was just testosterone treatment. Diet didn't change, hmm..........nope, just testosterone treatment. I wonder what "stone age" "triggers" might have caused her to have that
moustache and aged her skin and made her head hair go?

You ignore again every science.This displacement from oxidative stress as thing between the things,.....i call it simply ignoring.Sure...noone negated that there may no oxidative Stress in bearth growth due androgenes.By the way...not only androgenes can induce body hair growth.IGF-1 can do it too,and Minoxidil also.Sure not a moustache like Tom Sellek.Many non androgenic working drugs can induce hypertrichosis.



you wrote:.............................yup, just some "trigger" from eating whatever. Human beings are omnivoires, evolved to eat anything they can get their hands on. Finasteride only inhibits 65-70% of DHT creation. It doesn't get it all. Researchers in S. Korea thought Dutasteride could "pretty much stop further balding" alone. One is still uptaking other androgens when on a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor.


Dutasteride....A good question.Why does a DHT inhibition of almost 100 percent,fail to work in so many cases?It even fails to work in very young guys,which have great biological potential to regrowth hair?Duke researchers are so sure that it is the DHT....or not?


you wrote:The pictures of the women, and a study I read about a group of them on testosterone therapy in which half developed some progression of Male Pattern Baldness all the way to the NW7 level, show one big thing..........................males and females both go Male Pattern Bald roughly half the time if given testosterone. A man makes his naturally and of course doesn't need injections. This is not "BELIEF", but proven, observed scientific fact. I can cut and paste this post over and over forever, and it will disprove anything about "dietary" triggers in someone's genetics. Vegans bald, super-healthy food folks go bald, professional athletes with private chefs bald, people in the distant past who ate natural diets balded and our primate ancestors bald.


It is really aimless....you will never understand the interplay between individual genetic,and triggers.All you take up from my writing is the assume,that i negate the FACT that Testosterone,respectively his peripher chanced metabolite,is a very strong trigger for male pattern baldness,in genetic praedisposed individuals.But yo yourself grant,that not all female to male patients develop male pattern baldness.....or am i wrong?This Fact disprooves NOTHING.It prooves something.It prooves that you dont understand what i will say.


you wrote:----the Greeks noticed that eunuchs didn't go bald even if all the other male victims in a castrates family did bald. "Tino" has tried to "slip in" a few whoppers suggesting that castaration doesn't stop further baldness, but its nowhere in the literature.



This deliverances from greece or egypt,whatever....are scientific non valid,because informations like for example,what will happen when a castrated subject will get thyroid disease,or has low Iron are missing.Noone investigated that....the only thing they saw is,that there was a difference to their genetic kinsman,when castrated.What makes you so sure that they keeped their hair full and healthy until they died?Again,Castration does maybe stopp further progression of androgen induced Apoptotic influence,but it can do nothing for other influences.The complete inhibition of a important hormone,is no adhesive tape for hair and skin aging.


http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts ... -price.htm


This Mrs Duke...Vera Price,seems to know that androgenes are not all.



you wrote:Chris Penn, http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN looks alot like a few men I know personally. He was over 320 lbs when he died at 40. He ate alot, obviously. The guys I know whoof down cheesburgers and cokes like anybody else, are fat, dont excercise, and are otherwis lab-geeks. Like Penn, they have all their hair and one is getting near fifty. Teenage hairlines. If ever anybody should have tripped a "dietary trigger" (and they probably have---for heart disease) these two should have.


If he has good genes,than they may outwight influences in an amount,that he wont notice cellulaer damages.But this is not the rule-the majority of women who are anorexic do develop non reversible hair loss.On my board,about 30 percent.

I did not ignored your pictures.......but this are singel case,cases which were under no investigation.You yust know a little of them.....you are not whith them and watch them.

 

[Old Baldy]

FWIW Tino, I believe there are other factors. I know it is difficult for many people to get a "feel" for what alot of us call "old age" balding, which is due to the overall decline in our body's ability to support life IMHO. I'm just summarizing and not going into detail because I think we can all understand that, as we age, we cannot "reproduce" cells as well as we could when we were younger. So, in a way, I understand what you are saying.

I think what the other members are saying is you might not attach enough importance to the dominant cause/trigger of male pattern baldness (i.e., androgens). I haven't read all of your posts so I could be wrong in making this assumption. But that's the flavor I get from the posts I did read.

You get rid of the androgen component in male pattern baldness and you've gone a long way to treating our insidious ailment IMHO. Getting rid of the androgen component appears to "allow" people to keep adequate levels of cosmetically acceptable hair follicles over an average life span IMHO.

That doesn't mean they've avoided more thinning of their hair due to "old age" balding IMHO. It just shouldn't be near as bad as balding caused by androgens. (I'm talking about ordinary, healthy people here. Not people with other ailments that can cause hair loss.)

 

[tino]

FWIW Tino, I believe there are other factors. I know it is difficult for many people to get a "feel" for what alot of us call "old age" balding, which is due to the overall degeneration of our bodies to support life IMHO. I'm just summarizing and not going into detail because I think we can all understand that, as we age, we cannot "reproduce" cells as well as we could when we were younger. So, in a way, I understand what you are saying.

I think what the other members are saying is you might not attach enough importance to the dominant cause/trigger of male pattern baldness (i.e., androgens). I haven't read all of your posts so I could be wrong in making this assumption. But that's the flavor I get from the posts I did read.

You get rid of the androgen component in male pattern baldness and you've gone a long way to treating our insidious ailment IMHO. Getting rid of the androgen component appears to "allow" people to keep adequate levels of cosmetically acceptable hair follicles over a average life span IMHO.

That doesn't mean they've avoided more thinning of their hair due to "old age" balding IMHO. It just shouldn't be near as bad as balding caused by androgens.

You wrote: think what the other members are saying is you might not attach enough importance to the dominant cause/trigger of male pattern baldness (i.e., androgens).


That this is not so,i can clear up whith a few words.I myself take Medications,which make me close to castraded.


I wanted to point out,that this old age balding goes hand in hand whith for example decreased androgenreceptors,and low aromatase.Respectively,in this age class,many growth factors decline systemic.Aging is fractional due decline of hormonal growth factors.I thought that this would lead some here to think about,that maybe genetic defects in this groth factor releated genes,are the still searched other genes in the line of male pattern baldness.


Yes,getting rid of androgenes may allow some people to keep cosmetic acceptable hair for a longer periode.But i dont understand,that there is no fear of other triggers,which will be ESPECIALLY dangerous for onece negative affected hair follicles whith weaker defence mechanism.

 

[tino]

and one more point,independet if there are trigger or not.Antiandrogenes do slow further progression in many cases,but what about regrowth?That is not so easy....but possible due non antiandrogen working substances like minoxidil.I just want to bring ideas here,how people can use some additive options to force regrowth.And people like michael do damm this,due calling it worthless alternatives.

i dont understand that....

 

[Armando Jose]

citation from the study

"We were unable to identify androgen-responsive elements in the TGF-1 promoter. TGF-1 promoter activation by androgen is bald frontal DPC specific and is not observed in non-bald frontal DPC, suggesting that some intrinsic factor(s) in bald frontal DPC are required (data not shown). Factor(s) that are genetically involved in Androgenetic Alopecia would be the true target of the pathomechanism of the disease. Our modified co-culture system will provide clues to further explore the role of androgens in the regulation of hair growth."

Do they mean factors before tgf-beta induces his destroying work?

They are referring to the factor or factors which cause a difference in the RESPONSE of a given hair follicle to androgens (specifically in this case, whether or not TGF-1 is released in response to androgens).

I think it is clear so far that Androgenes induces a growth inhibiting tgf-beta signal in some genetic praedisposed scalp hair follicles,and a ? induced igf-1 modulated growth promoting signal in bearth and body hair follicles.I have no direct proove,but im very sure that tgf-beta downregulates the igf-1 and or his rececptors,which can crosstalk with insulin in male pattern baldness sensitive scalp hair follicles.I dont understand why this investigators did not also investigated if tgf-beta induces igf-1 deprivation or igf-1/insulin receptor downregulation.The missing signal,could be in the skin Redox Network,at least in the case of growth inhibition,but also in the case of growth promoting.A good working redox network,promotes growth(amongst others i allude to facts which says that the daily intake of vitamin c,correlats whith higher serum igf-1),and a not so good working redox network leads to growth inhibition.A naturally protection mechanism,if the system sees that there is a cancer promoting redox imbalance,it trys to downregulate everything what promotes growth.Still a big mystery are the thoughts of the nature.Why the scalp skin?And basically why the frontal and vertex scalp,and not the occiptal parts?To my theory,that the system negelected to protect hair in the case of unfavourable genetic,during which the system has to protect vital parts in the first line,suits not the fact,that hair follicles beyond the frontal and occiptal scalp,were also not worth to keep in metabolic activity.Frontal and especially vertex scalp,is mostly exposed to sunlight.Sunlight can induce skin cancer-mostly in pheomalnin caucasian individuals(Skin cancer in individuals of African, Asian, Latin-American, and American-Indian descent: differences in incidence, clinical presentation, and survival compared to Caucasians).male pattern baldness is also mostly common in caucasians and rare common in eumelain asians or africans(Current understanding of androgenetic alopecia. Part II: clinical aspects and treatment).ROS and TGF-beta have a role in skin cancer.UV Rays can upregulate TGF-beta,which acts as a tumor surpressor(http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v119/ ... 1580a.html.).Maybe the evolution regulated a long time ago,that populations who are very sensitive to skin cancer,express more TGF-beta in high metabolic active skin parts,which are mostly sun exposed.The AR Polymorphism could just be an unfortunate trigger,which interacts casual(maybe over ROS) whith the evoulutionaery volitional TGF-beta-tumor surpressing genetic in sun exposed scalp parts.

Citation:" Why the scalp skin?And basically why the frontal and vertex scalp,and not the occiptal parts?To my theory,that the system negelected to protect hair in the case of unfavourable genetic,during which the system has to protect vital parts in the first line,suits not the fact,that hair follicles beyond the frontal and occiptal scalp,were also not worth to keep in metabolic activity.Frontal and especially vertex scalp,is mostly exposed to sunlight"

Uhmm sunlight and common baldness, are you Farrel??

My theory is also simple, sebum flow as the initial triggering of common baldness.

Armando

BTW a very good post, a lot of science.

 

[Armando Jose]

Let me try to understand your point michael.


Correct me if im wrong.

You think that unknown genetic is only localized in the hair follicle,and Androgenes are the key to awake the bad influence of this unknown local follicle specific genes,which makes the follicle androgen sensitive.Further you know,that male pattern baldness affected males have a polymorphism in the AR.This polymorpism causes abnormal strong androgen action.Together this leads to male pattern baldness.In your opinion,castration or strong androgen receptor blockade,will be able to solve the hall problem.

Am i right,that the system of castrated males,runs in a kind of sparse flame,because there are more hormones than only testosterone dropped-Estrogen and igf-1 for example?For me it looks if everything in their metabolic activitys runs slower.That includes the metabolic activitys of the hair follicles too,there is not more much,what can induce anabolic overload.Anyway,noone could bring a definitive proove,that postpubertaer castrated males,wont adept further hair aging.This author Whiting( look at the studys me and bryan discused),says that postpubertal castration is no guarantee for absolut no further progression of male pattern baldness,and castrated men do not regrowth.And such a thing,where however the mean switcher(androgen action),is blocked.

If we assume that other systemic genes and triggers still have an influence to the castraded mens hair follicle,than the Argument from whiting and others makes sense.Aggravating is the missing estrogen protection of their hair follicles.Estrogen is not only an androgen action inhibiting,or SHBG increasing hormone-it is one of the most potent Antioxidants.Lower levels are associated whith aging in general.Include hair aging.

Even if you were right,and only sytstemic androgenic influence and local genetic sensivity are the absolute truth,than there is no proove,that the missing hair growth protecting and producing hormones in castrated males,wont weakening the resistance of the hair follicle to other factors.And also no proove,that the bad local genetic,does not react in general whith other influences-without the aspect of missing estrogen.

Can you tell me why senil balding goes on whith low DHT,low testosterone,and low estrogen?

There is a work about that,but i cant find it anymore.

In this work

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

Dr trueb advices at this EHRS Abstract.I dont have the full text here,maby someone else?

i will search again later.

Till now, there are not studies regarding the existence or nonexistence of androgens in the vicinity of scalp hairs in children years before puberty.

Now, all studies show that sebaceous gland or better pilosebaceous unit can make androgens from cholesterol, and we can ask, when start this system to work? After puberty? I have a hunch that is a lot of years before, just when appears terminal hair.

Said that, I request any real scientific persons to solve this dilemma with the proper tools

If it can be solved, then we can pick up this interesting talk.

Armando

 

[harold]

Tino wrote:

you make me sick Its not allright to imply that i belive in a triggering effect of shampoos!I never said something like that.Its saddening that people like you,apparently dont understand the modern view on male pattern baldness as a multifactorial disease.

Just hysterical. You too Harold.

Oh really? What have I said that is so amusing?

WHAT DOCTORS ARE SAYING MALE PATTERN BALDNESS IS A MULTIFACTORAL DISEASE? None!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[quote:1znsvb3k]
How many doctors would know what you were talking about if you said finasteride to them?

Ancient Greeks griped about going bald, a Roman Senator even wrote a book about Baldness, the oldest (known) baldness remedy dates from Ancient friggin' Egypt. I have seen a painting on a Cretian Vase that dates from 1500 BC with a Bald fisherman depicted upon it who was NW7 with a full beard. NO DOCTORS I KNOW OF HAVE SUGGESTED ANY SUCH CRAP.
[/quote:1znsvb3k]
Wow. Amazing - what does this have to do with anything sorry?
Its like watching a person have an argument with himself.

Again, Apes GODDAMMIT. Stuptailed macaques, bonaboos, orangutans ALL BALD WITH regularity. Their diet is as fukking natural as you can get.

Good for them. What is your point? Thats a little unfair as I know what your point is but since it has NOTHING to do with what I am talking about this is all completely irrelevant. I thought my last reply might make that clear but I guess not.

You are wasting your time hoping to find some miracle supplement that will make your hair not hit the drain.

Am I? Thats a hell of an assumption and shows that I dont think you have really been unerstanding exactly what we have been talking about. And frankly kind of a weird comment for a guy who is looking into lavender oil to help prevent hair loss to make.

Dr. Angela Christiano has lately found another gene associated with baldness (discussed on Dr. Bernstein's website). 3 have already been found. One a variant of the androgen receptor gene inherited from the mother.

Again. Thats great. What does it have to do with anything I have been saying?

Im afraid supplements like selenium, etc. wont stop these things...............................................good nutrition sure isn't helping the apes.



I have a feeling you might be one of the natural -nuts who "attacks" this website.

Now we are getting to the point. You want me/Tino to be one of those people. Speaking for myself I am not. If you had been able to or bothered to follow what I have been writing you would have realised that. You might have realised you were talking to someone who has been on finasteride for 6 years. Instead you have spent your time engaged in a pointless straw man argument.

We have seen em' in the past. Doctor got into with one of them who was just sure that "cooked fat" was why people went bald, another (some "bobmer'') was just sure that chairs (yes, chairs!!!!) did something to circulation that caused an immuno response on the head along with modern diets. PLENTY OF MEN WITH FULL HEADS OF HAIR EAT LOUSY DIETS, NOT JUST MY TWO UNCLES.

Whatever.........................go ahead and waste your time.

....that would be what you have been doing with this post.
hh