Back to the roots: Causes and effects of elevated DHT

[drgs]

Could it be that body produces a more potent androgen DHT to compensate for low testosterone?
(...to maintain the critical minimum: DHT's function is mostly related to the sexual function)

The bald head is then an "honest" evolutionary signal of bad health
Handicap principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It could be easy to prove, sample T and DHT from some random population of men, and see if DHT/T proportion reduces as T increases

 

[bushbush]

Could it be that body produces a more potent androgen DHT to compensate for low testosterone?
(...to maintain the critical minimum: DHT's function is mostly related to the sexual function)

The bald head is then an "honest" evolutionary signal of bad health
Handicap principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You misunderstand the handicap hypothesis.

The theory is that animals handicap themselves to indicate that they have higher fitness, not lower, or as you state "bad health".

Though hair loss is no doubt under some degree of sexual selection.

 

[xRedStaRx]

Could it be that body produces a more potent androgen DHT to compensate for low testosterone?
(...to maintain the critical minimum: DHT's function is mostly related to the sexual function)

The bald head is then an "honest" evolutionary signal of bad health
Handicap principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It could be easy to prove, sample T and DHT from some random population of men, and see if DHT/T proportion reduces as T increases

Testosterone injecteions reduce DHT, yes.

The body compensates with low T by increasing 5-AR activity, to keep the androgen/estrogen balance from tipping over.

A healthy young adult's profile is typically high T/low DHT/low E.

An old man's profile is typically low T/high DHT/medium E.

 

[drgs]

You misunderstand the handicap hypothesis.

The theory is that animals handicap themselves to indicate that they have higher fitness, not lower, or as you state "bad health".

Though hair loss is no doubt under some degree of sexual selection.

Yes, you're right
The ones with higher fitness develop fitness-expensive features,

Humans have something similar because testosterone is immunosuppresive (estrogen too -- for women), and only the ones with good health can have high T levels and keep their hair?
Ie. it works the other way, "marking" the ones with lower fitness instead

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Testosterone injecteions reduce DHT, yes.

The body compensates with low T by increasing 5-AR activity, to keep the androgen/estrogen balance from tipping over.

A healthy young adult's profile is typically high T/low DHT/low E.

An old man's profile is typically low T/high DHT/medium E.

And it seems DHT reinforces itself:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1654556

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Testosterone injecteions reduce DHT, yes.

The body compensates with low T by increasing 5-AR activity, to keep the androgen/estrogen balance from tipping over.

So when you have low T, and on top of that you block DHT with finasteride, E explodes and this is how you develop gynecomastia?

 

[xRedStaRx]

So when you have low T, and on top of that you block DHT with finasteride, E explodes and this is how you develop gynecomastia?

Not really no. It depends on how much your body aromatizes T. If you're fat for example, then your body compensates by making more DHT to keep the T/E ratio in balance. So it depends.

You might get other side effects of low T, because DHT kept you going by being a powerful androgen.

 

[PreCueBall]

Testosterone injecteions reduce DHT, yes.

The body compensates with low T by increasing 5-AR activity, to keep the androgen/estrogen balance from tipping over.

A healthy young adult's profile is typically high T/low DHT/low E.

An old man's profile is typically low T/high DHT/medium E.

So if we inject testosterone this is going to lower our DHT? Is this proven without a doubt? Cuz I'll go buy a syringe right now dammit.

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[h=3]Abstract[/h][h=4]BACKGROUND:[/h]During testosterone (T) therapy, T is partly converted to 17beta-estradiol (E2) and 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Effects of age, testosterone dose, and body composition on total and free E2 and DHT levels are unknown.
[h=4]OBJECTIVE:[/h]We evaluated age and dose-related differences in E2 and DHT levels in response to graded doses of testosterone enanthate in young and older men.
[h=4]METHODS:[/h]Fifty-one young (aged 19-35 yr) and 52 older (aged 59-75 yr) men completed treatment with monthly injections of a GnRH agonist plus randomly assigned weekly doses of testosterone enanthate (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg) for 5 months.
[h=4]RESULTS:[/h]During testosterone administration, total and free E2 levels increased dose-dependently (dose effect, P<0.001) in both young and older men. Total and free E2 levels and E2:T ratios during T administration were higher in older than young men, but age-related differences in free E2 and free E2:T ratios were not significant after adjusting for testosterone levels, percentage fat mass, and SHBG. DHT levels and DHT:T ratios were dose-related but did not differ between young and older men. Mechanistic modeling of free hormone data revealed that the conversions of T to E2 and DHT were both consistent with saturable Michaelis-Menten kinetics. The in vivo Km values were estimated to be 1.83 nm for aromatase and 3.35 nm for 5alpha-reductase, independent of age. The Vmax parameter for E2 was 40% higher in older men than younger men, but Vmax for DHT was not significantly different between age groups.
[h=4]CONCLUSIONS:[/h]During im testosterone administration, E2 and DHT levels exhibit saturable increases with dose. The rate of whole body aromatization is higher in older men, partly related to their higher percentage fat mass, SHBG, and testosterone levels.

 

[drgs]

So if we inject testosterone this is going to lower our DHT? Is this proven without a doubt? Cuz I'll go buy a syringe right now dammit.

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Abstract

BACKGROUND:

During testosterone (T) therapy, T is partly converted to 17beta-estradiol (E2) and 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Effects of age, testosterone dose, and body composition on total and free E2 and DHT levels are unknown.

DHT halved in this study, however they specifically studied old men with high DHT
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18811920

In your study population is more random. Maybe in normal men with healthy T/DHT proportion injecting T has no effect on relative DHT

To which are you yourself closest?

 

[abcdefg]

So to summarize what is the cause of elevated DHT and things we can do to bring it down without drugs?

 

[uncomfortable man]

Does this take into account the varying degrees of sensitivity androgen receptors have?

 

[zizoux]

So if we inject testosterone this is going to lower our DHT? Is this proven without a doubt? Cuz I'll go buy a syringe right now dammit.

You don't need to.Just don't ejaculate. lol
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...licit-films-boost-Testosterone-for-60-90-mins

 

[xRedStaRx]

So to summarize what is the cause of elevated DHT and things we can do to bring it down without drugs?

A lot of things. But bringing it down naturally is unsustainable due to modern diets and lifestyle. And it is not DHT overall that's causing problems, it's the hyperactivity of local DHT on the scalp skin and hair follicle tissue.

You are better off taking a drug instead, unfortunately.

Does this take into account the varying degrees of sensitivity androgen receptors have?

What does?

So if we inject testosterone this is going to lower our DHT? Is this proven without a doubt? Cuz I'll go buy a syringe right now dammit.

If your high DHT is caused by low T, then yes.

Which is usually the case anyway.

 

[drgs]

Of course, with injections the body will diminish its natural T production

 

[xRedStaRx]

Of course, with injections the body will diminish its natural T production

Only if it's too much.

 

[Python]

Only if it's too much.

What about bone marrow?

 

[2bald2young]

That is always something I am wondering, what is it that dht does that cause hair to become microscopic.We only know that that is bad for hair but why? what does it exactly do? Does it raise certain things like pgd2? If we could just figure out what it is that actually happens that causes hair loss, a chance for a cure would be much bigger because I don't think that dht is the only thing responsible for hair loss or else finasteride would be the cure. Like it releases something that overwrites a code in the hair to not grow anymore even if it isn't there anymore. My point is we need to understand what actually happens that causes hair loss, so we know where to focus on, it is like letting a cild fixing something. He know what must happens but not how, he doesn't know how everything works and that the problem we are facing we don't know how hairloss actually works.

 

[abcdefg]

These are really the million dollar questions why do androgens cause hair to miniaturize in some people and not in others? Also why does it only happen once you reach a certain age even though you had androgens for many years? PGD 2 could be something big but as usual its going to take more research to figure out if its another dead end or the light at the end of the tunnel

That is always something I am wondering, what is it that dht does that cause hair to become microscopic.We only know that that is bad for hair but why? what does it exactly do?

 

[Helios]

Dr Matte

Can anyone link me the study/studies that show that higher levels of T correlate/cause lower levels of DHT?

I crashed badly off of finasteride when I quit (total T went to 450ng/dL and shbg and estradiol were through the roof) but I managed to bring my total T levels up to over 900ng/dL and lower my SHBG/estradiol again through a combination of intense changes to my diet and supplement protocols. I never got my DHT checked because I was an idiot and I somehow decided serum DHT levels weren't useful, only local levels (whoops).

Anyway, I've long had a suspicion that I shed less when my total T is higher.​

I don't know for sure about that. When I used to take creatine my hair shed more than it did now. And according to study and personal experience my testosterone levels were higher when I was on it.

These are really the million dollar questions why do androgens cause hair to miniaturize in some people and not in others? Also why does it only happen once you reach a certain age even though you had androgens for many years? PGD 2 could be something big but as usual its going to take more research to figure out if its another dead end or the light at the end of the tunnel

That is always something I am wondering, what is it that dht does that cause hair to become microscopic.We only know that that is bad for hair but why? what does it exactly do?

Bad for hear on your head, but on the other side it makes hair grow on the rest of your body.

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Dr Matte

Can anyone link me the study/studies that show that higher levels of T correlate/cause lower levels of DHT?

I crashed badly off of finasteride when I quit (total T went to 450ng/dL and shbg and estradiol were through the roof) but I managed to bring my total T levels up to over 900ng/dL and lower my SHBG/estradiol again through a combination of intense changes to my diet and supplement protocols. I never got my DHT checked because I was an idiot and I somehow decided serum DHT levels weren't useful, only local levels (whoops).

Anyway, I've long had a suspicion that I shed less when my total T is higher.​

I don't know for sure about that. When I used to take creatine my hair shed more than it did now. And according to study and personal experience my testosterone levels were higher when I was on it.

These are really the million dollar questions why do androgens cause hair to miniaturize in some people and not in others? Also why does it only happen once you reach a certain age even though you had androgens for many years? PGD 2 could be something big but as usual its going to take more research to figure out if its another dead end or the light at the end of the tunnel

That is always something I am wondering, what is it that dht does that cause hair to become microscopic.We only know that that is bad for hair but why? what does it exactly do?

Bad for hair on your head, but on the other side it makes hair grow on the rest of your body.

 

[drgs]

I don't know for sure about that. When I used to take creatine my hair shed more than it did now. And according to study and personal experience my testosterone levels were higher when I was on it.

Creatine raises DHT

 

[isishearmyplea]

Can anyone link me the study/studies that show that higher levels of T correlate/cause lower levels of DHT?

I crashed badly off of finasteride when I quit (total T went to 450ng/dL and shbg and estradiol were through the roof) but I managed to bring my total T levels up to over 900ng/dL and lower my SHBG/estradiol again through a combination of intense changes to my diet and supplement protocols. I never got my DHT checked because I was an idiot and I somehow decided serum DHT levels weren't useful, only local levels (whoops).

Anyway, I've long had a suspicion that I shed less when my total T is higher.

It would be really nice and kind of you if you would share your diet and supplement protocol.

 

[Helios]

Creatine raises DHT

Cause it raises test, which raises DHT.

If you wanna test it for yourself there is something called n-methyl-d-aspartic acid or d-aspartic acid which supposed to raise your testosterone levels.