Back to the roots: Causes and effects of elevated DHT

[drgs]

Cause it raises test, which raises DHT.

If you wanna test it for yourself there is something called n-methyl-d-aspartic acid or d-aspartic acid which supposed to raise your testosterone levels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313
"After 7 days of creatine loading, or a further 14 days of creatine maintenance dose, serum T levels did not change. However, levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance (P < 0.001)."

 

[dreamermerlin]

it raises test, which raises DHT.

Proof that raise in T implies raise in DHT?
DHT is only a more potent testosterone, so when there is high T in your "system", high DHT would not be necessary. That is what i read somewhere: young men have high T/low DHT and old ones have low T/high DHT.
Yes, i see, common sense woulkd imply that, when there is more T, the 5-alpha enzyme has more "fuel" to turn it into DHT, but then, why old people have low T and high DHT?
So there is not a "linear" relation between T and DHT

 

[xRedStaRx]

Proof that raise in T implies raise in DHT?
DHT is only a more potent testosterone, so when there is high T in your "system", high DHT would not be necessary. That is what i read somewhere: young men have high T/low DHT and old ones have low T/high DHT.
Yes, i see, common sense woulkd imply that, when there is more T, the 5-alpha enzyme has more "fuel" to turn it into DHT, but then, why old people have low T and high DHT?
So there is not a "linear" relation between T and DHT

First, to the people saying creatine raises DHT and causes hair loss, it does not to any extent as you might think. It's important to distinguish they type of DHT first before linking it to hair.

Now back to your question. There is a healthy relationship between T/E/DHT levels. Which should be linear to keep the androgen/estrogen ratio stable. When T is too low or E is too high, the DHT threshold gets broke and your body upregulates 5AR activity. So that completely depends on other hormones as well as their ratios.

For example, injecting testosterone in old men improved their muscle mass, lowered fat, and on the medium term, lowered estrogen, and subsequentially DHT.

 

[drgs]

What induces 5-AR?

1. High prolactin levels
2. IGF-1
3. DHT itself increases 5-AR

What else

 

[Helios]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313
"After 7 days of creatine loading, or a further 14 days of creatine maintenance dose, serum T levels did not change. However, levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance (P < 0.001)."

Yeah I know that only one study they did on creatine and DHT. Didn't know about the T levels.
But even still, guys that inject themselves with AAS lose hair like ice melts in the sun, while that's only testosterone the inject.

- - - Updated - - -

First, to the people saying creatine raises DHT and causes hair loss, it does not to any extent as you might think. It's important to distinguish they type of DHT first before linking it to hair.

Now back to your question. There is a healthy relationship between T/E/DHT levels. Which should be linear to keep the androgen/estrogen ratio stable. When T is too low or E is too high, the DHT threshold gets broke and your body upregulates 5AR activity. So that completely depends on other hormones as well as their ratios.

For example, injecting testosterone in old men improved their muscle mass, lowered fat, and on the medium term, lowered estrogen, and subsequentially DHT.

I lost a lot of hair during my 4 months of creatine. Maybe it was just coincidental with the discovery of my hairloss, but I do remember having heavy DHT itch during workout. Back than I thought it was my gel, now I know better.

- - - Updated - - -

What induces 5-AR?

1. High prolactin levels
2. IGF-1
3. DHT itself increases 5-AR

What else

So IGF-1 raises DHT levels?
I ask it because i used to take Intimidate from iforce and that raised your test by raises IGF-1 and 2

 

[drgs]

Yeah I know that only one study they did on creatine and DHT. Didn't know about the T levels.
But even still, guys that inject themselves with AAS lose hair like ice melts in the sun, while that's only testosterone the inject.

AAS are precursors to all steroid hormones, incl estrogen, so it gets more complicated if body starts to regulate estrogen down, Im not sure what happens
Not the same as pure testosterone, I think

All world class bodybuilders are injecting human growth hormone, which has virtually no side effects, AAS is not the top choice because of cycling etc
Maybe some oral spray T to get ripped before onseason

 

[PreCueBall]

I've been taking a ZMA supplement for about a year now which is Zinc, Magnesium and Vitamin B6 and its supposed to increase total and free T as well as IGF-1(Just realized this after reading the back of the bottle recently). According to Wikipedia studys were conducted to prove that this wasn't the case so I was happy to hear that because I was under the impression ZMA is good for hair? Anyone know the effects those three have on hair and hormones?

And please, for the love of God, can someone clarify for me once and for all... Does Stinging Nettle Root lower scalp DHT or not? I keep reading contradicting opinions and articles and I just want to know. Right now I'm going the natural root before I take Propecia. Drinking a lot of Black Tea (Earl Grey to be precise) and taking supplements like Stinging Nettle, Pumpkin Seed Oil and ZMA. I was on Saw Palmetto and Pygeum but cut them when I started a massive shed right around when I added Pygeum and I upped my Saw Palmetto. I don't know what was the culprit cuz I also started taking an arginine supplement which I realized was a big no no.
Anyways back on track, I need someone to drop the knowledge on some of these supplements I've mentioned because I've been taking them for a while and I just don't want to be doing more harm then good.
P.S. I got my testosterone levels checked the other week at the doctors and from the normal range of 6-28 I was 23 (not sure of the exact measurement this is it's just what I was told over the phone). So I'm towards the high end and I assume this is Total T? I forgot to ask and clarify but I don't think they test Free T before Total. Just thought I'd add that tidbit of info.

 

[Helios]

I've been taking a ZMA supplement for about a year now which is Zinc, Magnesium and Vitamin B6 and its supposed to increase total and free T as well as IGF-1(Just realized this after reading the back of the bottle recently). According to Wikipedia studys were conducted to prove that this wasn't the case so I was happy to hear that because I was under the impression ZMA is good for hair? Anyone know the effects those three have on hair and hormones?

And please, for the love of God, can someone clarify for me once and for all... Does Stinging Nettle Root lower scalp DHT or not? I keep reading contradicting opinions and articles and I just want to know. Right now I'm going the natural root before I take Propecia. Drinking a lot of Black Tea (Earl Grey to be precise) and taking supplements like Stinging Nettle, Pumpkin Seed Oil and ZMA. I was on Saw Palmetto and Pygeum but cut them when I started a massive shed right around when I added Pygeum and I upped my Saw Palmetto. I don't know what was the culprit cuz I also started taking an arginine supplement which I realized was a big no no.
Anyways back on track, I need someone to drop the knowledge on some of these supplements I've mentioned because I've been taking them for a while and I just don't want to be doing more harm then good.
P.S. I got my testosterone levels checked the other week at the doctors and from the normal range of 6-28 I was 23 (not sure of the exact measurement this is it's just what I was told over the phone). So I'm towards the high end and I assume this is Total T? I forgot to ask and clarify but I don't think they test Free T before Total. Just thought I'd add that tidbit of info.

Zinc is supposed to protect the hair, so in a way it might even out. Btw, don't drink to much black tea. In a graph benjin made it showed it increased prostate cancer when in used in abundance.

 

[PreCueBall]

Thanks for the response Dr Matte. That's interesting to hear, at least it doesn't effect it negatively as some people on bodybuilding forums claim. What's your consensus on Saw Palmetto and it's effect on scalp DHT?

 

[PreCueBall]

Ya I've been taking it for the last few months religiously and I actually went through a huuuuge shed recently so that might be the culprit. I don't get why people try to say it helps hair loss if that's the case. I'd imagine that an increase in Free Testosterone would result in either Estrogen or DHT increase. I think it would make more sense to lower Free Testosterone and increase Total T. Regarding what you said about Nettle binding to SHBG, wouldn't this mean that DHT couldn't bind to SHBG? Isn't SHBG how DHT is transported through the blood? So subsequently it wouldn't be transported to the scalp correct?

 

[xRedStaRx]

Well you also have to remember that 5ar2 which converts testosterone to DHT is present in the scalp and the testis among other places. So some of the conversion of T > DHT gets done in the scalp which means that at least some of the DHT in the scalp is there because T was transported to the scalp and converted to DHT. I don't know how much of the scalp DHT gets made locally and how much doesn't.

If most of it's made locally then stinging nettle won't help.

Most of it is local.

 

[xRedStaRx]

Thanks. I'd be interested to know if you have a source?

DHT has a half life of only a few hours in the blood. It get's metabolized fairly quickly. That's because DHT is an autocrine, not an endocrine hormone.

That's also why inhibiting 5-AR II enzymes stops hair loss, even though there is still a decent amount of scalp DHT from 5-AR I sebaceous glands.

 

[Mikazz]

From what I have seen, there is A LOT of factors that can cause elevated 5-alpha reductase on the scalp. It can be a reason why some treatement works on others and some don't.

We should try to go deeper in the mechanism of hair loss, there is other mechanism below DHT that can be treated with success (and they are somewhat proven). DHT will not directly damage follicles.

 

[Ventures]

Hormonal profile in Indian men with premature androgenetic alopecia http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24403767
Narad S[SUP]1[/SUP], Pande S[SUP]2[/SUP], Gupta M[SUP]1[/SUP], Chari S[SUP]1[/SUP].

INTRODUCTION:

Alopecia in male is considered as a genetically determined disorder characterized by increased level of local androgen metabolite and increase androgen receptor binding in balding areas. Frequent deviations of hormones from normal values have been reported in men diagnosed with premature androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) especially for androgens, gonadotropins and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). Different studies in the past have inferred that premature baldness before the age of thirty in males could be considered equivalent to the polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) in female.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:

Hormonal profile of 50 men with severe premature balding before 30 years of age were compared with same numbers of age matched controls. The serum concentrations of total testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, SHBG, insulin and fasting blood sugar were estimated. Statistical analysis was performed with paired Student's t-test for cases and controls.

RESULTS: Decreased levels of SHBG with high free androgen index were found in cases when compared with the controls.


So it seems that males with premature baldness could have decreased level of systemic SHBG which should mean more Free T and higher possibility for conversion to DHT. Thus it would be advisable to increase the level of SHBG by consuming green tea or smth in order to balance endocrine profile .

 

[Armando Jose]

What is the meaning of the stadistical index, it is more very realistic if the figure is near the unity?
http://www.ijtrichology.com/viewimage.asp?img=IntJTrichol_2013_5_2_69_122961_t1.jpg
In this case there is a figures to discuss talking SHBG and free androgens....
Please, anyone can lightung up this issue?

 

[xRedStaRx]

Hormonal profile in Indian men with premature androgenetic alopecia http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24403767
Narad S[SUP]1[/SUP], Pande S[SUP]2[/SUP], Gupta M[SUP]1[/SUP], Chari S[SUP]1[/SUP].

INTRODUCTION:

Alopecia in male is considered as a genetically determined disorder characterized by increased level of local androgen metabolite and increase androgen receptor binding in balding areas. Frequent deviations of hormones from normal values have been reported in men diagnosed with premature androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) especially for androgens, gonadotropins and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). Different studies in the past have inferred that premature baldness before the age of thirty in males could be considered equivalent to the polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) in female.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:

Hormonal profile of 50 men with severe premature balding before 30 years of age were compared with same numbers of age matched controls. The serum concentrations of total testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, SHBG, insulin and fasting blood sugar were estimated. Statistical analysis was performed with paired Student's t-test for cases and controls.

RESULTS: Decreased levels of SHBG with high free androgen index were found in cases when compared with the controls.


So it seems that males with premature baldness could have decreased level of systemic SHBG which should mean more Free T and higher possibility for conversion to DHT. Thus it would be advisable to increase the level of SHBG by consuming green tea or smth in order to balance endocrine profile .

The lower SHBG counts could be an effect, rather than the cause.

For example, SHBG also binds to estrogen and DHT molecules, not just testosterone. So with the body lowering the SHBG counts and increasing 5-AR activity, there is more propensity to regulate the androgen/estrogen balance. In other words, there might be a deeper root cause than SHBG that's causing it in the first place. Insulin resistance, high GI carbs, obesity, and a myriad of health problems lead to lower SHBG, which is also correlated with male pattern baldness in other studies. So addressing those problems will naturally restore the endocrine balance, rather than directly interfering with the body's feedback process.

 

[drgs]

The lower SHBG counts could be an effect, rather than the cause.

For example, SHBG also binds to estrogen and DHT molecules, not just testosterone. So with the body lowering the SHBG counts and increasing 5-AR activity, there is more propensity to regulate the androgen/estrogen balance. In other words, there might be a deeper root cause than SHBG that's causing it in the first place. Insulin resistance, high GI carbs, obesity, and a myriad of health problems lead to lower SHBG, which is also correlated with male pattern baldness in other studies. So addressing those problems will naturally restore the endocrine balance, rather than directly interfering with the body's feedback process.

Well, whatever is causing low SHGB, is also causing hair loss
Work with your SHGB and you are very likely to hit the cause for hair loss as well

 

[xRedStaRx]

Well, whatever is causing low SHGB, is also causing hair loss
Work with your SHGB and you are very likely to hit the cause for hair loss as well

Not necessarily.

Let's assume some hair loss factor A, lower SHGB counts = B, and Androgenetic Alopecia = C.

It could be A -> B -> C

or

B <--A--> C

or

A -> B -> A...... A -> C


A here means one, but almost certainly more than one variable, of which they are all at least lightly connected and feed each other in a cycle.

 

[Ventures]

The lower SHBG counts could be an effect, rather than the cause.
For example, SHBG also binds to estrogen and DHT molecules, not just testosterone. So with the body lowering the SHBG counts and increasing 5-AR activity, there is more propensity to regulate the androgen/estrogen balance.

Does SHBG have greater affinity to DHT molecules, and is testosterone second in line prior to estrogen ? So when you reduce the amount of DHT, testosterone will take the hit. Do you agree that low SHBG raises free T, and in individuals with expressed activity or 5ard there is increase in DHT. So, in order to suppress DHT it is advisable to increase SHBG ?

Below is benjt explanation why low SHBG could actually be beneficial for Androgenetic Alopecia sufferers:

I tend to disagree, but let me elaborate. SHBG is the main means of transport for T. Occasionally, T will de-bind from SHBG and become free - but if there are no androgen receptors around, it will quckly rebind to SHBG. The affinity of T to androgen receptors is bigger than to SHBG, which ensures that SHBG will serve as a means of transportation for T and not bind T forever. If T would prioritize binding to SHBG (i.e. T affinity for SHBG was higher) over binding to androgen receptors, T would simply not be able to do its workings. It would be glued to SHBG forever and not activate androgen receptors.
Probably (it makes sense, but I dont have a source for that) 5ar is also priorized by T over SHBG. Makes sense because otherwise 5ar wouldnt be able to convert T to DHT, if T would just bind to SHBG which is virtually everywhere.

That being said, I can now explain why I disagree with odalbak in that matter:
Low SHBG may raise free T, but that will likely not result in increased DHT. If 5ar is around, T will bind to 5ar anyway.

Additionally - and that is the most important point here - take into account that DHT is produced locally all over the body (in high doses in the testes, prostate, and in Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness sufferers probably in the scalp; and in low doses in almost all of our skin), but T is almost exclusively produced in the testes.
As a consequence, for local DHT production, T needs to get there first (as T is not produced where DHT is produced). So in the case of the scalp, for the scalp to produce DHT (which we want to avoid!), T needs to be transported there some way, as the scalp does not have T otherwise. And how does the T get transported to the scalp? By binding to SHBG. You can imagine SHBG as the "bus" the T gets on to drive to its destinations all over the body, including the scalp.
If we lower SHBG, T will be delivered only in lower amounts to the rest of the body, and in the case of the scalp there will be less DHT as the supply of T is lower.
Thus, in theory, it should be beneficial to lower SHBG. We can make sure that DHT cannot be produced locally if we prohibit T from getting to the DHT production site.

One or two papers actually theorized that the beneficial effects of some forms of tea to slow down hair loss (I think they were on black tea) are because the tea lowers SHBG.

On the other hand, here is post which elaborates how increased level of SHBG can capture Free T and in that way block the conversion process of forming DHT:

Independent research appears to support Dr. Cordain's claims linking hyperinsulinemia to male pattern baldness. The results of a study published in the general medical journal "Lancet" in 2000 establish a connection between hyperinsulinemia and early onset male pattern baldness, as well as other insulin resistance-associated disorders such as obesity, high blood pressure and dyslipidemia, or an abnormal amount of fat in the blood. (livestrong.com, 2011)

Hair loss could be yet another sign of the cascade of detrimental effects that are part of the metabolic derangement known as “Syndrome X”. Is it possible that the Paleo diet could prevent hair loss if it provides proper nutrition? There is the old school of thought that offered the theory that high levels of insulin in the blood is the root cause of hair loss. High levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SBGH) limit the negative effects of DHT, by binding to free testosterone, which blocks the conversion of testosterone to DHT. On the inverse, high levels of insulin lowers the levels of SBGH, which allows more testosterone to be converted to DHT and damage hair follicles. Put simply, lots of insulin allows lots of DHT to be made. Studies show that people who are insulin resistant, or diabetic have a significantly higher incidence of hair loss. Coincidently, people who are balding have a significantly higher risk of heart disease. Because of this theory, it’s obvious that hair loss is yet another condition that is caused by poor eating habits, since insulin resistance is typically established after years of over-consumption of sugars and processed carbohydrates. (paleodietnews.com, 2011)

Studies show that people who are insulin resistant, or diabetic have a significantly higher incidence of hair loss. Why? With insulin resistance you have astronomically high amounts of insulin in your system. High levels of insulin significantly lower if not totally cut off two other hormones, Glucagon, the insulin’s adversary (also produced in the same part of the pancreas) which removes artherosclerotic plaques, lowers triglycerides and improves overall blood flow, and SHGB (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin). Without SHGB, testosterone is free to be converted into DHT. When SHBG is not in the blood stream in optimal quantity, a lot of this free testosterone in excess may be converted in the scalp to DHT. Less SHBG means much more free testosterone therefore more DHT in the bloodstream. Hence my opinion that high levels of insulin, and even worse insulin resistance, may be the central cause of hair loss. People will come back at me with the fact that 1. many balding people are not actually insulin resistant. and 2. some insulin resistant people are not balding. My responses would be 1. Some people are obviously less tolerant of high insulin levels than others and 2. this is where the genetic factor of baldness comes in. Androgens. The people who are insulin resistant but are not balding lack the Alpha reductase and androgens to convert it to DHT locally. If you have elevated insulin levels, and DO have the capacity to convert Testosterone to DHT locally, you will bald. (healthmad.com, 2012)

There are two opposite effects of SHBG hormone. On one hand SHBG serves as transportation 'vehicle' for T to targtet tissues, as scalp, since both testosterone and estradiol circulate in the bloodstream, bound mostly to SHBG and to a lesser extent serum albumin and corticosteroid-binding globulin (CBG) (AKA transcortin). And on the other hand SHBG binds to Free T and then obstruct the formation of DHT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_hormone-binding_globulin[/URL]]

Only a very small fraction of T about 1-2% is unbound, or "free," and thus biologically active and able to enter a cell and activate its receptor. SHBG inhibits the function of these hormones. Thus, bioavailability of sex hormones is influenced by the level of SHBG. The relative binding affinity of various sex steroids for SHBG is dihydrotestosterone (DHT) > testosterone > androstenediol > estradiol > estrone.[SUP][2][/SUP] DHEA is weakly bound to SHBG as well, but DHEA-S is not.[SUP][2][/SUP] Androstenedione is not bound to SHBG either, and is instead bound solely to albumin.[SUP][3][/SUP]

Accroding to Wikipedia, SHBG inhibits the function of these hormones. So this sentence proves @odalbak statment. High SHBG is rather benefitial for scalp hair.

 

[xRedStaRx]

Does SHBG have greater affinity to DHT molecules, and is testosterone second in line prior to estrogen ? So when you reduce the amount of DHT, testosterone will take the hit. Do you agree that low SHBG raises free T, and in individuals with expressed activity or 5ard there is increase in DHT. So, in order to suppress DHT it is advisable to increase SHBG ?

Below is benjt explanation why low SHBG could actually be beneficial for Androgenetic Alopecia sufferers:



On the other hand, here is post which elaborates how increased level of SHBG can capture Free T and in that way block the conversion process of forming DHT:


There are two opposite effects of SHBG hormone. On one hand SHBG serves as transportation 'vehicle' for T to targtet tissues, as scalp, since both testosterone and estradiol circulate in the bloodstream, bound mostly to SHBG and to a lesser extent serum albumin and corticosteroid-binding globulin (CBG) (AKA transcortin). And on the other hand SHBG binds to Free T and then obstruct the formation of DHT



Accroding to Wikipedia, SHBG inhibits the function of these hormones. So this sentence proves @odalbak statment. High SHBG is rather benefitial for scalp hair.

SHBG is not a 'bus' or a transport. At least that's not the main function of it. Free testosterone molecules have a fairly long half life, making them able to travel in the blood and bind to ARs at will. I do not know if testosterone has a higher affinity towards ARs or SHBG, but I'm assuming the latter because most of T is bound, and only a small percentage is bio-available.

As you said, SHBG regulates the amount of free sex steroids floating around the body by controlling their level, in addition to a multitude of feedback factors like the HPTA. It's a very complex system, and there is no one solution for every case. For example, insulin spikes from 'modern food' cut down testosterone levels in half temporarily. Similarly, serum insulin levels are inversely correlated with SHBG. Do you see a pattern? We've been caught up with high DHT concentrations on the scalp, when in reality, it may be the final byproduct of potentially hundreds of bio-chemical chain reactions that lead to Androgenetic Alopecia in the end.

Long story short, the levels of SHBG are indeed depressed in Androgenetic Alopecia sufferers. But one needs to establish whether this is a correlation, or a causation; because SHBG levels may vary for many different reasons.