DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study

[HARM1]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "go bald". Aren't there transplants that have lasted for literally DECADES? There's such a thing as senescent thinning, too. Furthermore, not ALL hair follicles harvested from the occipital area are necessarily androgen-resistant. There's another study I've cited several times that showed that there's the occasional lone hair follicle from the back which was still sensitive to testosterone, so that might explain the failure of _some_ transplanted follicles to grow and thrive over a really extended period of time.

Bryan

But there is still sone thining that you both were talking about back there:
do those with out 5ar-2 have it ?
does a woman have it at some point?

 

[Bryan]

I can't answer that definitively, but if there really such a thing as age-related thinning, then I would expect that yes, both of those groups also experience it.

 

[wookster]

Are there problems with this theory?

http://www.dryskins.net/Moisturizers/ha ... malep.html

Uh...YES, there are problems with that theory. BIG problems!! :wink: The "galea theory" of balding was discredited long ago. Didn't you know that?

I see that you joined this forum earlier this year, so you may not have seen the long thread I started more than a year ago on the seminal Nordstrom study from the 1970's, which finally dispensed not only with the old-fashioned galea theory, but also a certain NEW theory that's been floating around about "edema"! Here is a link to that thread. Happy reading:

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... hp?t=17571

Bryan

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... sc&start=0

This shows that the cause of male pattern baldness lies in the follicle itself or in its very close surrounding

:scratch: :mrgreen: :scratch:

"very close surrounding"...?

 

[docj077]

I don't have time to look, but it wouldn't surprise me if hair cycling in animals that grow winter coats, is directly related to insulin and IGF-1 concentrations during specific times of the year.

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

Is IGF-1 associated with hair growth... or hair loss...?

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/DOJvol5num ... ws/su.html

In summary, regulation of human hair growth by androgen is probably mediated by IGF-1 in the dermal papilla. In male scalp, high levels of IGF-1 may increase the androgen receptor activity and dihydrotestosterone levels and these result in an increased propensity for baldness.

Both. Clearly, higher levels of IGF-1 are seen in finasteride patients that have the best outcomes.

However, people who take IGF-1 as a supplement often complain of massive amounts of vertex thinning.

Of course, I don't know if anyone with that side effect has ever stayed on it long enough to know if their hair would have actually grown back thicker. I'm starting to believe that it's the upregulation of IGF-1 in finasteride. users that causes the "sheds" that everyone complains about.

 

[wookster]

:freaked: :freaked2: :freaked:

Donor dominance is not completely true?:

http://www.newhair.com/resources/mp-200 ... inance.asp

In 1959, Dr. Norman Orentreich provided the scientific basis for the field of Hair Transplantation. In his landmark paper "Autografts in Alopecias and other Selected Dermatological Conditions" published that year in the Annals of the New York Academy of Science, he put forth the concept that in androgenetic alopecia "the transposed grafted skin maintains its integrity and characteristics independent of the recipient site."

He called this phenomena "Donor Dominance" and, since its first proclamation, there has been no concept more fundamental, or immutable, in the field of hair restoration surgery. The term he coined was an appropriate one, for it has "dominated" our thinking in hair transplantation for the past 40 years. At least until now!

The first inkling that the powers of the donor tissue were not omnipotent came from Dr. Norwood's clever observation that transplanted hair took on the characteristic wave of the hair that originally grew at that spot. Just the fact that transplanted hair could "wave" spoke for recipient site influences, since a surgeon is not capable of orienting each hair so that it will grow in perfect spatial harmony with its neighbor.

The second challenge came in 1999 when Dr. Lee transplanted hair from the scalp into the eyebrows of patients who had alopecia caused by Leprosy (a condition called madarosis). He showed that the graying and growth rates of the transplanted hair gradually conformed to the eyebrows, rather than the scalp from whence it came.

The present study of Dr. Hwang, mounts the third formidable challenge to Dr. Orentreich's famous hypothesis. In this work, Dr. Hwang and Company provide additional evidence that the recipient area can influence hair growth rate, the cell cycle and even graft survival. They showed that hair transplanted from the occipital scalp (the author's) to the lower leg, took on the growth characteristics of leg hair and then partially reversed itself when transplanted back to the nape of the neck. There was no placebo effect here. This was firm scientific proof of recipient site influences.

 

[wookster]

:ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/primates/19444

Chimpanzees: Genus species: Pan (all) troglodytes (cave dwellers) These great apes may be found in West and Central Africa, north of Zaire, from Senegal to Tanzania. Steamy, lowland rainforests, mountainous forests and savannas found in the western part of their range are the types of habitat most suited to them.

[...]

Baldness is frequent in adults, typically as a triangle on the forehead of male, and shows up more extensively in females.

[...]

Chimps are very close in their relationship to humans. Biochemical studies indicate that chimps and humans share all but about 2% of their genes.

:? :? :?

 

[Bryan]

Donor dominance is not completely true?:

http://www.newhair.com/resources/mp-200 ... inance.asp

Is donor dominance of WHAT not completely true? That question as you phrased it is incomplete and ambiguous. If you are referring to male pattern baldness (androgenetic alopecia), then YES, that condition does indeed show donor dominance. Other hair conditions don't necessarily demonstrate donor dominance, as Orentreich clearly stated in his original 1959 paper. That's why you have to specify what you're referring to, and not simply pose the puzzling question "Donor dominance is not completely true?".

Bryan

 

[Armando Jose]

To docj077;
Nowadays the manual of endocrinologist point out the current opinion, but science is constantly in progress.

To Michael Barry,
I don’t deny the impact of androgens in hair cycle, but I am only try to look for the initial event in common baldness.
Reconozco que mi ingles no es tan bueno como desearia, pero si puedes, podemos hablar con una mayor profundidad en castellano.

To Bryan;
“ As I have told you repeatedly, scalp hair grows and thrives in the TOTAL ABSENCE of androgens.â€￾
This sentence don’t fit with this work:
Proportions of various straight and branched fatty acid chain types in the sebaceous wax esters of young childre.
Stewart ME, Downing DT
J Invest Dermatol 84:501-503, 1985

Scalp lipids samples from the child’s hair, ages 6-8.
Results: There was considerable overlap of the adult values with the children’s.

Then the sebaceous gland in childrens is functional, and therefore androgens are mediated in this issue. In my opinion Intracrinology is the key.


Have a nice day
Armando

 

[Armando Jose]

A few words regarding Kligman, a exceptional researcher.

Albert M. Kligman: 90 Years Old on March 17,
2006
Journal of Investigative Dermatology (2006), Volume 126
An excerpt:
As Albert Kligman himself put it
when I asked him what he considered to be his
major contributions to research in dermato logy,
“[I made] a bevy of…original observations which
make up my life work…, not all of which were
stellar or even true!â€￾

Arch Dermatol Res (1982) 272: 343-349
On the Mechanism of Sebaceous Secretion*
Donald T. Downing and John S. Strauss
An excerpt:
In normal adult humans, the film of lipids present on the skin surface consists
predominantly of sebum [6]. Presumably it was the development of fur, in
mammals, and of feathers, in birds, which occasioned the evolution of oil-secreting
glands for the primary functions of lubrication and water proofing. Kligman has
argued eloquently that with the loss of most of the pelage in humans, sebum has
been left with no significant function in this species [7], and no recent development
has served to undermine that conviction.


I think that Mr. Kligman missed with the fosil relic of sebaceous gland in humans. Human being lost the most of pelage, but clearly scalp hairs was increased in length and complexity.

Armando

 

[Widows_Peak]

By the way, Widows peak..................beta sitosterol is *thought* to somewhat inhibit androgens from binding to receptors. There is a patent taken out in Japan for its topical usage in male pattern baldness. Its the one common ingredient in saw palmetto, african pygeum, stinging nettles, and pumpkin seeds. It only occurs in high incidence in two natural compounds, corn oil (associated with cancer in lab rats used topically) and pine oil (tall oil)----which usually occurs as an industrial by-product. Its in avocado oil also, but not much. Its from 10-18% of pine oil. Im currently putting that on the back of one hand to see if it has an anti-androgenic effect and makes the body hair there sparser. Wont know anything until at least November. I'll report what success Ive had. We do know this however, for whatever reason, pine oil has been found in Iron and Bronze age Celtic mummies heads in Ireland. The article I read about that states they used it as a hair gel. From using it in my head a couple of times to see if it was a styling aid, I can tell you forcefully that isnt true and it does little or nothing in that regard. The Gauls that Julius Ceasar encountered in Europe used lime in their hair according to Ceasar's "The Conquest of Gaul" that I read a few years back.

Beta-sis is also in every fruit, nut and grain on the planet.
Ingested beta-sis doesn't come from pine oil or corn oil, but generally from soybean husks.
It occurs in higher concentrations in avacadoes and peanuts.

As to how much beta-sis helps with hair regrowth, I suggest you read this....
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/foodwine/2003052165_peanutmilk10.html

Fans tout wonders of peanut milk
By John M. Glionna

Los Angeles Times

ROBERT DURELL / LOS ANGELES TIMES

SAN FRANCISCO — Jack Chang flashes a crooked smile. His discolored teeth crowd together like old tombstones.

"I know why you come!" the Taiwanese-born cafe owner exclaims to Donna Cooke, one of his most loyal customers. "You want more peanut milk!"

Chang concocted the unlikely beverage when his teeth, loosened by gum disease, drove him to find a painless way to consume peanuts, a favorite food since childhood. The creation had unexpected benefits, Chang says: It cured his gums and even slowed his baldness.

Cooke and other regulars who flock to Chang's KK Cafe swear by peanut milk — the mystical elixir that Chang invented in the kitchen of his storefront burger joint in this city's bohemian Haight district.

Cooke drinks it for energy and, she says, because it keeps her eyes clear of infection.

"Listen, I'm not crazy," says the Macy's worker. "I know this stuff has made me a healthier woman."

The walls of Chang's eatery carry testimonials affirming the reputed powers of peanut milk. Although there's no hard proof of any health benefits, the beverage has spawned a cult of peanut-milk fanatics.

The drink, which does not contain milk, is made from peanuts, grains, herbs and spices. Fans say it strengthens patients with AIDS and cancer, reverses baldness, heals wounds faster, prevents colds, reduces symptoms of menopause and soothes psoriasis. It's also said to be a hangover cure. Some drink it at bedtime to help them sleep, others as an alternative to caffeine.

Chang, 58, suggests another benefit: "More sexual stamina!"

The diminutive Chang never dreamed his passion for peanuts would lead to a product that is making a minor splash in the holistic foods industry. From a back-shop endeavor that started with a pound of peanuts a day, Chang's company now processes 2,000 pounds a month and ships about 240,000 bottles a year. The 10.5-ounce containers sell for about $1.69.

Backed by investors, he opened a Bay Area production facility in 2004, and his product will soon be sold in Washington, Northern California and Oregon by such high-end stores as Whole Foods.

Chang calls it the Miracle at the KK Cafe. Marketing his peanut milk under the name "Signs and Wonders," a phrase borrowed from the Bible, Chang says the object isn't to make money, but to spread good health. He donates 10 percent of his profits to charity.

Health experts are skeptical of Chang's "miracle," which boasts on its label that it provides "stamina and energy" and "is good for your immune system."

"We live in an age where there is great anxiety about health," said Dr. Rajiv Bhatia of the San Francisco Department of Public Health. "This product, like others, seems to capitalize on that anxiety."

Chang says he's no scientist. He's clueless as to what makes peanut milk work. But he knows it worked for him.

In 1999, a chronic gum condition made Chang's teeth so loose he could no longer eat solid foods. Yet he still craved peanuts. So he decided to brew up a liquid form. Each night after his restaurant closed, he went to work in his kitchen, boiling a bag of peanuts down to mulch, adding grains and other ingredients.

First results disappoint

At first, the results were too oily. Many initial batches tasted terrible. But Chang didn't throw away his failures. He drank them and kept experimenting.

Three months after he started, Chang noticed that his gums no longer hurt. He also stopped losing hair.

"Ha!" he says. "Drink peanut milk! No more hair on pillow!"

The drink has the look and consistency of milk, with a definite peanut twang. Chang didn't plan to sell his invention. But soon cafe denizens began asking about it. Word spread as customers started to report their own claims of astonishing results.

Lawyer Thomas Paoli is drawn to both Chang and his product. "It's food filled with a lot of good feeling," he said. "You go to a restaurant where the chef pours heart and soul into the menu, and you can taste it."

Stories spur customers

In 2002, the story of Chang's peanut milk hit the local media. Not all of the coverage was good. One news anchor tried peanut milk on live television, the cameras rolling as her face curdled.

Still, the stories spurred more customers. Chang stepped up production and worked to improve the taste. "The work was hard," said his son, Jon. "He was killing himself."

That's when Bay Area resident Leo Soong tried the product for his eczema. A devout Christian with a background in the beverage industry, Soong approached the elder Chang, and a company was born.

On the firm's Web site, Soong solicits people who suffer from psoriasis to try the drink and report the results. He hired a scientist to test the product.

"Nutrients in peanuts may help alter the immune system," said Kent Erickson, a biology professor at the University of California, Davis, Medical School. "But I only examined the drink's individual parts. It's a guess as to how the whole thing would work."

Justin Jackson, a regional grocery coordinator for Whole Foods, said if Chang could back customer claims with test results, "peanut milk will really take off."

But fans say they don't need scientific confirmation.

"People don't know how aspirin works," said Reginald Legba, who credits the drink with helping to restore his hair. "I don't know how my car works, but when I get in and turn the key, I know it starts up every time. I also can't explain peanut milk. But every time you need it to work, it works."

 

[Bryan]

I don’t deny the impact of androgens in hair cycle, but I am only try to look for the initial event in common baldness.

You mean sleeping on a pillow?

Reconozco que mi ingles no es tan bueno como desearia...

Your English is fine, Armando. Don't worry about what Michael said.

To Bryan;
“ As I have told you repeatedly, scalp hair grows and thrives in the TOTAL ABSENCE of androgens.â€￾
This sentence don’t fit with this work:
Proportions of various straight and branched fatty acid chain types in the sebaceous wax esters of young childre.
Stewart ME, Downing DT
J Invest Dermatol 84:501-503, 1985

Scalp lipids samples from the child’s hair, ages 6-8.
Results: There was considerable overlap of the adult values with the children’s.

Then the sebaceous gland in childrens is functional, and therefore androgens are mediated in this issue. In my opinion Intracrinology is the key.

How does any of that challenge the accuracy of what I said?? Please explain.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Re: A few words regarding Kligman, a exceptional researcher.

I think that Mr. Kligman missed with the fosil relic of sebaceous gland in humans. Human being lost the most of pelage, but clearly scalp hairs was increased in length and complexity.

So how does the length and complexity of scalp hair make Dr. Kligman wrong in what he said?

Bryan

 

[michael barry]

Widows Peak.................................

Here is a chart for you about the best sources of beta sis:

----------------------------------------------------------------
Beta-Sitosterol levels of plant oils
Source Concentration % Typical Level
Tall Oil 10 - 20 18
Corn Oil 0.5 - 1.0 0.9
Corn Fibre Oil 10 - 15 12.5
Pumpkinseed oil 0.2 - 0.3 0.25
Saw Palmetto 0.1 - 0.3 0.2
Avocado 0.4 - 0.9 0.5
Olive Oil 0.2 - 0.3 0.2
Rice bran Oil 0.5 - 0.8 0.75
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got that from here my friend : http://www.olivado.com/studies2.htm


You will also find this interesting : "Look what the ancients used for hair gel...[url]http://living.scotsman.com/index. ... 1224452006[/url]

"Evidence from prehistoric bodies discovered in Ireland proved that even Iron Age man wore hair gel (albeit made from plant oil and pine resin, not polymers) and kept his fingernails trim."



I appreciate the link about peanut milk. (Yuck though man............I cannot imagine how terrible that tastes). Widowspeak. Im very well aware that beta sis is in many things, but in low concentrations. There is a danger of getting too much beta sis in the form of mucho milligrams through supplementation that Wookie posted on internally, but I forgot where he linked that at. I think it had something to do with too much beta sis gumming up capillary or arterial walls. Ask Wook about it.............he finds lotsa interesting stuff on his searches. I dont think 60 mgs or so would hurt a man though. I think Wook's post had to do with really high levels. Ask him about it.

If my little experiment with pine oil on the back of my hand really suppresses growth there in a couple of months......................I'll probably use beta sis topically in some form or another. Pine oil has an atisceptic smell to it. Like floor polish. It fades after about 30 minutes after application. I'd imagine one would need it twice a day if my little experiment proves fruitful. I think if it works its because it mimics estrogen. We will see. As crazy as it sounds..................at a little over one week I think Im seeing a little something as far as less hair vs. the other hand. I should know something pretty concrete by sometime in November.

 

[CCS]

Widows Peak.................................

Here is a chart for you about the best sources of beta sis:

----------------------------------------------------------------
Beta-Sitosterol levels of plant oils
Source Concentration % Typical Level
Tall Oil 10 - 20 18
Corn Oil 0.5 - 1.0 0.9
Corn Fibre Oil 10 - 15 12.5
Pumpkinseed oil 0.2 - 0.3 0.25
Saw Palmetto 0.1 - 0.3 0.2
Avocado 0.4 - 0.9 0.5
Olive Oil 0.2 - 0.3 0.2
Rice bran Oil 0.5 - 0.8 0.75
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got that from here my friend : http://www.olivado.com/studies2.htm


You will also find this interesting : "Look what the ancients used for hair gel...[url]http://living.scotsman.com/index. ... 1224452006[/url]

"Evidence from prehistoric bodies discovered in Ireland proved that even Iron Age man wore hair gel (albeit made from plant oil and pine resin, not polymers) and kept his fingernails trim."



I appreciate the link about peanut milk. (Yuck though man............I cannot imagine how terrible that tastes). Widowspeak. Im very well aware that beta sis is in many things, but in low concentrations. There is a danger of getting too much beta sis in the form of mucho milligrams through supplementation that Wookie posted on internally, but I forgot where he linked that at. I think it had something to do with too much beta sis gumming up capillary or arterial walls. Ask Wook about it.............he finds lotsa interesting stuff on his searches. I dont think 60 mgs or so would hurt a man though. I think Wook's post had to do with really high levels. Ask him about it.

If my little experiment with pine oil on the back of my hand really suppresses growth there in a couple of months......................I'll probably use beta sis topically in some form or another. Pine oil has an atisceptic smell to it. Like floor polish. It fades after about 30 minutes after application. I'd imagine one would need it twice a day if my little experiment proves fruitful. I think if it works its because it mimics estrogen. We will see. As crazy as it sounds..................at a little over one week I think Im seeing a little something as far as less hair vs. the other hand. I should know something pretty concrete by sometime in November.

Pine oil (tall) is cheap. It is like $4 for 4oz or something like that. Easy to get. My question is how much do I need? Would 2mL in my minoxidil do it? Would that gum up my scalp capilaries? And does beta sis convert testosterone to estrogen? Also, if I put some 3% aloe vera in a topical, do you think it would help the absorption of spironolactone and dutasteride? What about 17 estradiol, how is that different from beta sis?

 

[michael barry]

CCS,

I dont know if it would react with minoxidil in the bottle or not.

For instance, I emailed Dr. Proctor a while back about mixing some spironolactone liquid and prox-n. He said they could be applied together, but not stored together because they would slowly react with each other, resulting in some third subtance.

Pine oil is pretty cheap though. If you have a pine tree in your yard.............I think the stuff is made by putting some pine cones in a steamer and steaming them, the resultant liquid underneath mixed with the steamer water should be pine oil. Bronze age celts could make it, so surely we can. I'll know by November if I think its a really effective anti-androgenic topcial or not. Revivogen, on my wrist, had a good showing and beta sis is one of the last ingredients in that, so there would not be much beta sis in it. Im excited to see the results of this.


You know CCS, body hair is an excellent test patch that we all have for various topical anti-androgens and some stimultants if they work by purely hypertrichotic means and not merely trying to offset immuno phenomena. Hope I have luck with this.

 

[wookster]

There are many articles describing the benefits of plant sterols and beta sitosterol.

Still not sure about that though... :freaked:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 111003.php

ORLANDO, Fla., Nov. 10, 2003 – Results from a nested, case-control study showed that patients with both high coronary risk and higher blood levels of sitosterol (1) (a plant sterol) were at an increased risk of a major coronary event compared to similar patients with lower blood levels of the plant sterol. These results were presented today at the 2003 American Heart Association's Scientific Sessions. Very high levels of plant sterols in the blood (levels ranging from 200 to 1570 µmol/L [2,3]) have been previously confirmed as a risk factor for coronary heart disease.(4)

[...]

 

[wookster]

There are many articles describing the benefits of plant sterols and beta sitosterol.

Still not sure about that though... :freaked:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 111003.php

ORLANDO, Fla., Nov. 10, 2003 – Results from a nested, case-control study showed that patients with both high coronary risk and higher blood levels of sitosterol (1) (a plant sterol) were at an increased risk of a major coronary event compared to similar patients with lower blood levels of the plant sterol. These results were presented today at the 2003 American Heart Association's Scientific Sessions. Very high levels of plant sterols in the blood (levels ranging from 200 to 1570 µmol/L [2,3]) have been previously confirmed as a risk factor for coronary heart disease.(4)

[...]

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstrac ... _ckb_ref_0

With regard to toxicity, no obvious side effects of phytosterol have been observed in studies to date, except in individual with phytosterolemia, an inherited lipid disorder.

 

[Armando Jose]

Armando Jose wrote:
To Bryan;
“ As I have told you repeatedly, scalp hair grows and thrives in the TOTAL ABSENCE of androgens.â€￾
This sentence don’t fit with this work:
Proportions of various straight and branched fatty acid chain types in the sebaceous wax esters of young childre.
Stewart ME, Downing DT
J Invest Dermatol 84:501-503, 1985

Scalp lipids samples from the child’s hair, ages 6-8.
Results: There was considerable overlap of the adult values with the children’s.

Then the sebaceous gland in childrens is functional, and therefore androgens are mediated in this issue. In my opinion Intracrinology is the key.


How does any of that challenge the accuracy of what I said?? Please explain.

Bryan

If the sebum is the samel in young children and adults, then in both androgens are working in sebaceous gland to produce sebum. Sebaceous gland is androgent dependent, ok?

BTW thank you for your comment about my english.

Armando

 

[Bryan]

If the sebum is the samel in young children and adults, then in both androgens are working in sebaceous gland to produce sebum. Sebaceous gland is androgent dependent, ok?

But sebum is NOT the same in young children and adults, Armando, and you know that as well as I do! :freaked:

I don't think you understood what they said in that study. Take a look at the title again: "Proportions of various straight and branched fatty acid chain types in the sebaceous wax esters of young children." Without having read the full study myself, it appears to me that they are comparing the relative PROPORTIONS of straight and branched fatty acids in the sebum of children and adults, and they found that they are similar. They're not saying that the QUANTITIES of sebum in children and adults are the same, just that the PROPORTIONS of those types of fatty acids are the same. Do you see what I mean? It's well-known that children produce FAR less sebum than adults. The study above doesn't argue with that simple fact.

Bryan

 

[Armando Jose]

HI Bryan;

Here it is possible read the full study (*). They said that the sebum is practically equal in children in all categories respect men/women, only there is a difference in iso-odd ranged wich range up to more than 20% in the children. In my opinion is not very hughe difference.

Respect the quantities is possible determintae it with the ratios of wax sters/(cholesterol + cholesterol esters). Then if the proportions in children are similar than adults, the sebum secretion rates will be analogous.

Armando

(*) http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v84/n ... 4599a.html