DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study

[docj077]

HI Bryan;

Here it is possible read the full study (*). They said that the sebum is practically equal in children in all categories respect men/women, only there is a difference in iso-odd ranged wich range up to more than 20% in the children. In my opinion is not very hughe difference.

Respect the quantities is possible determintae it with the ratios of wax sters/(cholesterol + cholesterol esters). Then if the proportions in children are similar than adults, the sebum secretion rates will be analogous.

Armando

(*) http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v84/n ... 4599a.html

But, they aren't the same between adults and children and that's why the difference in secretion rates and the availability of nutrients produced results that were different between the two age groups. The decrease in wax ester fatty acid in that study is directly related to the decreased sebum flow in young children. Even with similar flow, the wax ester fatty acid conc. is decreased, which means sebum in children and in adults is not the same.

 

[Armando Jose]

Thank you docj077 for your interest and comments, but in fig. 1 only in % iso odd there is a difference, and others results are overlap with the adult values. OTOH there is a wide range in the results with child and adults.

But, my special concern is that sebaceous gland needs androgen to work, and there is sebum in scalp hairs in prepubertal subjets. Then, what happen with current theory about male pattern baldness???

Armando

 

[HARM1]

To docj077;
Nowadays the manual of endocrinologist point out the current opinion, but science is constantly in progress.

To Michael Barry,
I don’t deny the impact of androgens in hair cycle, but I am only try to look for the initial event in common baldness.
Reconozco que mi ingles no es tan bueno como desearia, pero si puedes, podemos hablar con una mayor profundidad en castellano.

To Bryan;
“ As I have told you repeatedly, scalp hair grows and thrives in the TOTAL ABSENCE of androgens.â€￾
This sentence don’t fit with this work:
Proportions of various straight and branched fatty acid chain types in the sebaceous wax esters of young childre.
Stewart ME, Downing DT
J Invest Dermatol 84:501-503, 1985

Scalp lipids samples from the child’s hair, ages 6-8.
Results: There was considerable overlap of the adult values with the children’s.

Then the sebaceous gland in childrens is functional, and therefore androgens are mediated in this issue. In my opinion Intracrinology is the key.


Have a nice day
Armando

If kids have sebum, where is theire acne, and if sebum meand DHT then how is there penis and arm pit hair not griwng? Or did I miss understand whar wa written /?

 

[docj077]

Thank you docj077 for your interest and comments, but in fig. 1 only in % iso odd there is a difference, and others results are overlap with the adult values. OTOH there is a wide range in the results with child and adults.

But, my special concern is that sebaceous gland needs androgen to work, and there is sebum in scalp hairs in prepubertal subjets. Then, what happen with current theory about male pattern baldness???

Armando

The size of the sebaceous gland increases with age due to androgen stimulation. The sebaceous glands are constantly secreting sebum, but androgens increase the amount of sebum that they are capable of producing.

Do not forget that estrogens, glucocorticoids, and prolactin also regulate sebum production and glucocorticoids and prolacin are present quite early.

 

[Bryan]

HI Bryan;

Here it is possible read the full study (*). They said that the sebum is practically equal in children in all categories respect men/women, only there is a difference in iso-odd ranged wich range up to more than 20% in the children. In my opinion is not very hughe difference.

(*) http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v84/n ... 4599a.html

I just scanned through it quickly, and again, they're apparently just talking about PROPORTIONS of various lipid fractions and fatty acid types, not absolute quantities, so it doesn't contradict what I've been saying. Below is another study by the very same authors which did in fact measure ABSOLUTE QUANTITIES of sebum production in children, and compared them with adults:

Journal of Investigative Dermatology (1985) 84, 59–61.

"Measurement of Sebum Secretion Rates in Young Children"
Mary Ellen Stewart and Donald T Downing

Sustainable rates of lipid secretion were measured on the foreheads of 24 children, ages 6–8. The method of measurement involved absorption of skin surface lipid into bentonite clay and subsequent separation and measurement of the various lipid classes by quantitative thin-layer chromatography. In 9 of the children, sebum secretion appeared to be virtually nonexistent, judging by the low amounts of lipid recovered and the low percentages of wax esters and squalene, which are purely sebaceous lipid classes. An effect of age on sebum secretion rates was observed with median rates of wax ester secretion, being 7, 28 and 48 g/10 cm2/3 h for 6-, 7- and 8-year-olds, respectively. These values are well below those of most young adults. The relation between wax ester secretion rate and skin surface lipid composition on the forehead was investigated and found to conform to the formula: g wax esters/10 cm2/3 h = 28 x wax esters/(cholesterol + cholesterol esters), with a correlation coefficient (r) of 0.94.

 

[Widows_Peak]

Widows Peak.................................

Here is a chart for you about the best sources of beta sis:

----------------------------------------------------------------
Beta-Sitosterol levels of plant oils
Source Concentration % Typical Level
Tall Oil 10 - 20 18
Corn Oil 0.5 - 1.0 0.9
Corn Fibre Oil 10 - 15 12.5
Pumpkinseed oil 0.2 - 0.3 0.25
Saw Palmetto 0.1 - 0.3 0.2
Avocado 0.4 - 0.9 0.5
Olive Oil 0.2 - 0.3 0.2
Rice bran Oil 0.5 - 0.8 0.75
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got that from here my friend : http://www.olivado.com/studies2.htm

Don't forget peanuts.
A 1.2-ounce handful of peanuts contains approximately 50 mgs of beta-sitosterol.

You will also find this interesting : "Look what the ancients used for hair gel...[url]http://living.scotsman.com/index. ... 1224452006[/url]

"Evidence from prehistoric bodies discovered in Ireland proved that even Iron Age man wore hair gel (albeit made from plant oil and pine resin, not polymers) and kept his fingernails trim."



I appreciate the link about peanut milk. (Yuck though man............I cannot imagine how terrible that tastes). Widowspeak. Im very well aware that beta sis is in many things, but in low concentrations. There is a danger of getting too much beta sis in the form of mucho milligrams through supplementation that Wookie posted on internally, but I forgot where he linked that at. I think it had something to do with too much beta sis gumming up capillary or arterial walls. Ask Wook about it.............he finds lotsa interesting stuff on his searches. I dont think 60 mgs or so would hurt a man though. I think Wook's post had to do with really high levels. Ask him about it.

That's strange that beta-sis would clog arteries, when it has been shown to lower cholesterol, which clogs arteries.
Phytoestrogens don't clog anything, according to the research I've done.
They take the place of estrogenic compounds and have been comaperd to "putting the key in the lock, but not opening the door"

If my little experiment with pine oil on the back of my hand really suppresses growth there in a couple of months......................I'll probably use beta sis topically in some form or another. Pine oil has an atisceptic smell to it. Like floor polish. It fades after about 30 minutes after application. I'd imagine one would need it twice a day if my little experiment proves fruitful. I think if it works its because it mimics estrogen. We will see. As crazy as it sounds..................at a little over one week I think Im seeing a little something as far as less hair vs. the other hand. I should know something pretty concrete by sometime in November.

Careful with the pine oil.
The phenols may be toxic.

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

There is strong scientific evidence that pine and cedar shavings are harmful to the health of rodents. Both these softwood shavings give off aromatic hydrocarbons (phenols) and acids that are toxic. The phenols, which give the shavings their scent, are the reason that cedar repels fleas and moths and why pine-oil is the major ingredient in Pine-sol brand disinfectant. In the laboratory, autoclaved pine and cedar shavings have been shown to inhibit the growth of micro-organisms (Reference 1). When animals are exposed to softwood shavings the aromatic hydrocarbons are absorbed through the respiratory tract and enter the blood.

The acids given off by pine and cedar shavings are very damaging to the respiratory tract. These acids can actually destroy cells that line the lungs and trachea (2). This has significant implications for rats since the most common diseases in pet rats are respiratory infections. Many owners of pet rats have reported the improvement of respiratory problems when they have switched their pets to a bedding other than pine or cedar shavings.

Pine and cedar toxins also affect humans and other animals. People who work in cedar and pine sawmills have a much higher incidence of asthma compared to workers in other dusty environments or those without any dust exposure (3, 4). Another study found that chickens kept on softwood shavings had a higher incidence of respiratory infections (5).

Pine and cedar toxins affect more than the respiratory tract. Several studies (6,7,8,9) have shown that rodents kept on softwood beddings have elevated levels of liver enzymes. The liver is the body's detoxification system, and elevated liver enzymes indicate that the body is working harder to eliminate toxins. In mice these enzymes started rising after only 24 hours exposure to cedar shavings and only returned to normal when the mice were away from the shavings for 12 days (8). If pine or cedar shavings are heat-treated or soaked in a solvent, so that some of the phenols are removed, the effects are not as great, but still occur (8, 9).

 

[michael barry]

Widows Peak,

Great info. Those are good finds. I appreciate them.............

Where did you get the info about 50mgs of beta sis in 1.2 oz of peanuts? I knew beta sis existed in peanut oil (its mentioned in other places), but I thought it was roughly the same concentration as avocado oil (less than one percent). It would seemingly be higher if that was accurate.



If my pine oil experiment really pans out well, I would look at just buying the chalky beta sis-tablets and crushing them up into powder. Mixing them in a one-part alchohol and four-part distilled water solution, heated to 120' degrees on a stove for a few minutes until the solution was clear, then put in a blender for a few secs and try it topically also. Hoping that it would work just as well (or even better).

For those first five minutes or so, the pine oil smell is pretty strong. Its anti-microbial, anti-bacterial, diurectic, but its also something of a minor skin irritant too. This is just a practicality experiment. Especially since we know know the bronze age celts used it topically in Ireland.


BY the way, ,,,the link Wook found about negative consequences of high internal concentrations of beta sis were involved with coronary problems. Wook goes over that a few posts up from this one. He always finds some interesting stuff.


If beta sis does prove to be a great anti-androgen...................I think I'd find another way to injest it other than peanut milk. Maybe just peanuts or avocados. I cant get past what I think peanut milk would taste like. Wheewwwww!

 

[michael barry]

Widows Peak,

Great info. Those are good finds. I appreciate them.............

Where did you get the info about 50mgs of beta sis in 1.2 oz of peanuts? I knew beta sis existed in peanut oil (its mentioned in other places), but I thought it was roughly the same concentration as avocado oil (less than one percent). It would seemingly be higher if that was accurate.



If my pine oil experiment really pans out well, I would look at just buying the chalky beta sis-tablets and crushing them up into powder. Mixing them in a one-part alchohol and four-part distilled water solution, heated to 120' degrees on a stove for a few minutes until the solution was clear, then put in a blender for a few secs and try it topically also. Hoping that it would work just as well (or even better).

For those first five minutes or so, the pine oil smell is pretty strong. Its anti-microbial, anti-bacterial, diurectic, but its also something of a minor skin irritant too. This is just a practicality experiment. Especially since we know know the bronze age celts used it topically in Ireland.


BY the way, ,,,the link Wook found about negative consequences of high internal concentrations of beta sis were involved with coronary problems. Wook goes over that a few posts up from this one. He always finds some interesting stuff.


If beta sis does prove to be a great anti-androgen...................I think I'd find another way to injest it other than peanut milk. Maybe just peanuts or avocados. I cant get past what I think peanut milk would taste like. Wheewwwww!

 

[Armando Jose]

If kids have sebum, where is theire acne, and if sebum meand DHT then how is there penis and arm pit hair not griwng? Or did I miss understand whar wa written /?

Harm1, androgens before puberty are not circulating in blood flow, they are situated only in the vicinity of scalp hair follicles. Human scalp hair have “asynchroniaâ€￾ and therefore each follicle have its own hair cycle, independent with the adjacent hair.

Journal of Investigative Dermatology (1985) 84, 59–61.

"Measurement of Sebum Secretion Rates in Young Children"
Mary Ellen Stewart and Donald T Downing

Sustainable rates of lipid secretion were measured on the foreheads of 24 children, ages 6–8.

Bryan, this study only measured the lipids in forehead, not in scalp. BTW, it is difficult find studies regarding lipids in scalp hairs before puberty. OTOH, there is no problems with my idea where androgens before puberty are confinated in scalp hairs.

Do not forget that estrogens, glucocorticoids, and prolactin also regulate sebum production and glucocorticoids and prolacin are present quite early.

Doctor, You are right, hair biology is so complex..., BTW the same statement if we change "sebum production" with "hair cycle", ...., and also these sbustances are present quite early.

Armando

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, this study only measured the lipids in forehead, not in scalp. BTW, it is difficult find studies regarding lipids in scalp hairs before puberty.

So what scientific evidence do you have that sebum production in the scalp of children is any different from sebum production in their foreheads?

Bryan

 

[wookster]

50mgs of beta sis in 1.2 oz of peanuts?

http://www.peanutsusa.org.uk/index.cfm? ... ge&pid=130

Peanut oil available in most supermarkets for example contains more beta-sitosterol (153mg per 100g) than extra virgin olive oil (145mg per 100g). Peanut butter contains 134 mg per 100g and snack peanuts contain between 48 mg and 94 mg of beta-sitosterol per 100g depending on the peanut variety.

 

[abcdefg]

Would the higher levels of testosterone from taking propecia increase hairloss? What do you guys think about someone with mild hairloss maybe even just a mature hairline taking propecia at a young age like 22?

 

[michael barry]

Wook,

Based on this "Peanut oil available in most supermarkets for example contains more beta-sitosterol (153mg per 100g) than extra virgin olive oil (145mg per 100g). Peanut butter contains 134 mg per 100g and snack peanuts contain between 48 mg and 94 mg of beta-sitosterol per 100g depending on the peanut variety. "

It would seem a guy could just eat about 120 g of peanuts a day and forget the beta sis supplement for internal beta sis. Probably more bio-avaialble from the real food anyway. Interesting...



abcdef,,
Ive used finasteride for a decade and have had no side effects from it, but some guys do get sides from it. Your point about excess testosterone is a very good one and one that has been discussed. We simply dont know. It might be a good idea to use topical spironolactone twice a day along with the finasteride to really slow the baldness up there down or another receptor blocker. Im testing topical beta sis right now in the form of pine oil to see if it blocks receptors on the back of my hand and reduces the body hair there. Fluridil and revivogen are another couple of topical possiblilities. Hope this helps.

 

[CCS]

I think revivogen is mainly a 5ar blocker, not an AR blocker. Since pine oil is 10% beta cis, why mess around with peanut oil that is 0.1% beta sis?

 

[CCS]

If beta sis does prove to be a great anti-androgen...................I think I'd find another way to injest it other than peanut milk.

You think it is an AR blocker? If you injest an AR blocker, it would block all your AR's, not just your scalp ones.

Is the heating it to make it clear used for micronizing it? I think micronize means dissolve until the particles are smaller than a micron. This can be done by playing with the pH too.

 

[wookster]

It would seem a guy could just eat about 120 g of peanuts a day and forget the beta sis supplement for internal beta sis. Probably more bio-avaialble from the real food anyway. Interesting...

Elvis had great hair and he ate prodigious amounts of peanut butter...

http://splendidtable.publicradio.org/re ... bsand.html

Elvis Presley's Grilled Peanut Butter
and Banana Sandwich

2 slices of white bread
2 tablespoons of smooth peanut butter
1 small ripe banana mashed
2 tablespoons butter

Spread the peanut butter on one slice of bread and the mashed banana on the other. Press the slices gently together. Melt the butter (or to be truly Elvis-like, melt bacon fat!), over low heat in a small frying pan. Place the sandwich in the pan and fry until golden brown on both sides. Eat it with a glass of buttermilk.

Please note: Elvis tended to eat 12-15 sandwiches a sitting! So belly up!

Correlation isn't always causation though :hairy:

 

[wookster]

Some web pages say that the active ingredient is saw palmetto is the beta sitosterol and it works as an androgen receptor blocker:

http://www.hairloss-research.org/Propec ... tives.html

Saw Palmetto does not actually lower serum DHT, however does function as an androgen receptor blocker. Its beta sitosterol content may play a significant role. Anecdotal feedback on its sole usage has roughly parallel that given to finasteride prior to its approval for hair growth, that is it produces slow acting, subtle positive results for most, that are so subtle in fact, many have discontinued treatment, erroneously concluding there was no effect. Keep in mind that Propecia users often have to wait a year or longer to see any results at all.

 

[Armando Jose]

Armando Jose wrote:

Bryan, this study only measured the lipids in forehead, not in scalp. BTW, it is difficult find studies regarding lipids in scalp hairs before puberty.


So what scientific evidence do you have that sebum production in the scalp of children is any different from sebum production in their foreheads?

Bryan

There is a lot of studies regarding the no-existence of androgens in prepubertals, but they don't test scalp, only other parts of body, forehead, leg, chest, etc,..., and interestingly the few one that measured the sebum in scalp hair are positive.

Armando

 

[Bryan]

"So what scientific evidence do you have that sebum production in the scalp of children is any different from sebum production in their foreheads?"

There is a lot of studies regarding the no-existence of androgens in prepubertals, but they don't test scalp, only other parts of body, forehead, leg, chest, etc,..., and interestingly the few one that measured the sebum in scalp hair are positive.

Yes, but you didn't answer my question above.

Bryan

 

[Widows_Peak]

I think revivogen is mainly a 5ar blocker, not an AR blocker. Since pine oil is 10% beta cis, why mess around with peanut oil that is 0.1% beta sis?

Because the phenols in pine oil are quite toxic, making it a no go for internals and potentially dangerous for a topical.

You can drown your scalp in Pine Sol if ya like, but not so much for this guy.