DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study

[CCS]

I think revivogen is mainly a 5ar blocker, not an AR blocker. Since pine oil is 10% beta cis, why mess around with peanut oil that is 0.1% beta sis?

Because the phenols in pine oil are quite toxic, making it a no go for internals and potentially dangerous for a topical.

You can drown your scalp in Pine Sol if ya like, but not so much for this guy.

Tell me more about this. Where did you here this? Do you know any of the phenols by name? Micheal Berry is putting pine oil on his wrist to see if the beta sis will do anything. Your info could help him here.

 

[Widows_Peak]

I posted it a couple pages back to Michael, and he didn't seem very worried.

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

There is strong scientific evidence that pine and cedar shavings are harmful to the health of rodents. Both these softwood shavings give off aromatic hydrocarbons (phenols) and acids that are toxic. The phenols, which give the shavings their scent, are the reason that cedar repels fleas and moths and why pine-oil is the major ingredient in Pine-sol brand disinfectant. In the laboratory, autoclaved pine and cedar shavings have been shown to inhibit the growth of micro-organisms (Reference 1). When animals are exposed to softwood shavings the aromatic hydrocarbons are absorbed through the respiratory tract and enter the blood.

The acids given off by pine and cedar shavings are very damaging to the respiratory tract. These acids can actually destroy cells that line the lungs and trachea (2). This has significant implications for rats since the most common diseases in pet rats are respiratory infections. Many owners of pet rats have reported the improvement of respiratory problems when they have switched their pets to a bedding other than pine or cedar shavings.

Pine and cedar toxins also affect humans and other animals. People who work in cedar and pine sawmills have a much higher incidence of asthma compared to workers in other dusty environments or those without any dust exposure (3, 4). Another study found that chickens kept on softwood shavings had a higher incidence of respiratory infections (5).

Pine and cedar toxins affect more than the respiratory tract. Several studies (6,7,8,9) have shown that rodents kept on softwood beddings have elevated levels of liver enzymes. The liver is the body's detoxification system, and elevated liver enzymes indicate that the body is working harder to eliminate toxins. In mice these enzymes started rising after only 24 hours exposure to cedar shavings and only returned to normal when the mice were away from the shavings for 12 days . If pine or cedar shavings are heat-treated or soaked in a solvent, so that some of the phenols are removed, the effects are not as great, but still occur (8, 9).

 

[michael barry]

Widowspeak,

The pine oil experiment on the back of my hand is only going to run about 60-80 days. Youre quite right about me looking for another way to get beta sis on the scalp if the experiment proves fruitful. I'd probably just buy a shitload of gel caps, drain them, cut them with some alchohol and distilled water and make a topical.

Im right there with ya' on the pine oil side effects. It wouldnt be a lifetime thing, even though those bronze age-celts apparently used it for years and years.



Ive been wonderin' bout a homedade blender-made topical with barley extract, arginine, green apple peels, grapes with seeds, borage seed oil, beta sitosterol, blueberries, little alchohol and distilled water.................................blended all to hell and put on for about thirty minutes before a quick shower in the morn. Makes me wish I had a damned herd of balding chimps to test it on...................

 

[CCS]

I doubt it will be nearly concentrated enough. I looked at the levels at http://www.usda.gov, and most foods just are not that concentrated. You should buy the extracts instead.

 

[Widows_Peak]

I just wanted to warn ya about possible problems with pine oil, as on another forum that I posted on, several people have gone insane in an anti-beta-sis hysteria.

They have convinced themselves that it can cause their testicles to shrink, will turn them into effeminate chemical castrati, is poison, etc.
It's become so ridiculous that I've stopped posting there.

Anyway......what I would be interested in seeing is liposomal beta-sis.
The day they come up with that, I may just have to start using a topical.

 

[wookster]

I just wanted to warn ya about possible problems with pine oil, as on another forum that I posted on, several people have gone insane in an anti-beta-sis hysteria.

They have convinced themselves that it can cause their testicles to shrink, will turn them into effeminate chemical castrati, is poison, etc.
It's become so ridiculous that I've stopped posting there.

Anyway......what I would be interested in seeing is liposomal beta-sis.
The day they come up with that, I may just have to start using a topical.

Is beta-sis a safe supplement?

http://e.hormone.tulane.edu/learning/ph ... ogens.html

On the other hand, eating very high levels of some phytoestrogens may pose some health risks. Reproductive problems have been documented in laboratory animals, farm animals and wildlife that ate very high (up to 100% of their diet) amounts of phytoestrogen-rich plants.

Even though humans almost never eat an exclusive diet of phytoestrogen-rich foods (even vegetarians), those who consume uncooked soy or pop photoestrogen pills as a natural therapy may be exposing themselves to some health risks. Many natural compounds, especially hormones, can be potent and can have both good and bad health affects, depending on how much of it is in the body. These substances should always be used in moderation to avoid any unintentional health consequences.

 

[CCS]

I eat 50g of soy protein each day. Am I at risk?

 

[docj077]

I eat 50g of soy protein each day. Am I at risk?

A better question to ask is, do ingested phytoestrogens survive their little trip through a stomach full of hydrochloric acid and are they even readily absorbed once they enter the small intestine?

Especially, when one takes in soy protein in the form of a powder or as meat replacement and not in a pill form.

That's a good question.

If the answer is no, then ingested soy's only purpose is to provide the body with protein.

 

[Widows_Peak]

An even better question is....

Cattle have been eating grain, which is rich in phytoestrogens, for thousands of years.
How is it suddenly unsafe for them?

The answer is:
It isn't.

Rather, it's just more anti-phytoestrogenic hysteria.

 

[CCS]

so do we need pills to get stuff through the stomach? A dutas pill dissolved in my mouth in less than a minute, though the stomach does not have saliva.

 

[wookster]

http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm

Typically soy foods are divided into two categories: non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and fermented tofu and soymilk products.(12) In Asia, the traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.(9,10) It has been suggested that the fermentation process increases availability of isoflavones in soy.(12,13) For example, a study(14) of the culturing method involved in the production of the Japanese traditional food miso came to the conclusion that the culturing process itself led to a “lower number of cancers per animalâ€￾ and a “lower growth rate of cancer compared to controls.â€￾ The researchers also indicated that it was not the presence of any specific nutrient that was cultured along with the soyabean paste but rather the cultured soy medium itself that was responsible for the health benefits associated with miso consumption. Miso, a fermented or probiotic form of soyabean, is particularly rich in the isoflavone aglycones, genistein and daidzein, which are believed to be cancer chemopreventatives.(15) The fermentation process is thought to convert the isoflavone precursors genistin and daidzin to their active anti-cancer isoflavone forms, genistein and daidzein.(16) It is unfortunate that in the United States, health-conscious consumers, especially women concerned about developing breast cancer, are urged by media and consumer reports to consume soy or soy protein isolates, which are not the forms in which soy is traditionally consumed in Japan.(3) The overwhelming majority of soy consumed in Asian countries such as Japan, China, Korea and Indonesia is in its cultured or probiotic form enhanced with genistein and daidzein.(3) Japanese researchers found that the cultured broth of Saccharomyces cerevisiae or Brewer's yeast produced in both in vivo and in vitro experiments bio-antimutagenic and anticlastogenic activity with mutagen formation reduced by 47% just by the administration of the cultured broth. The cultured soy medium had thus produced its own unique anti-carcinogenic activity by strongly inhibiting formation of cellular mutations.

 

[Widows_Peak]

Can't I post anywhere that you won't post this bullshit about soy ?

I've refuted every single lie that you've posted about soy on another forum.
So now you wanna spread more of your lies, half truths and disinformation here.

I'm so sick of dealing with you and your lies.
You post about how soy causes "chemical castration" and how phytoestrogens create homosexuals, and any other B.S. you can find.

http://millerarts.com/discuss/posting.p ... 097956f13c

Soy: The Poison Seed
By: William Wong N.D., Ph.D., and Member World Sports Medicine Hall of Fame

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/enzyme/wong_soy.htm

Kills testicular tissue. In men it permanently reduces testicular function and lowers Lutinizing Hormone production. LH is what signals your testicles to work. This increases the probability of estrogen dominance in men with its hair loss, swollen and cancerous prostates. (4,5). Male children fed soy formulas and soy products may not ever get to like girls. Dorris Rapp MD, the worlds leading pediatric allergist, asserts that environmental and food estrogens are responsible for the increase in male homosexuality and the worldwide reduction in male fertility.

That's the kind of quality info you get from Oscar or wookiewannabe.

BTW genius, ever heard of listeria?

http://www.medic8.com/healthguide/artic ... teria.html

Foods at high risk from listeria contamination include certain deli foods, hot dogs, uncooked meat, ready-to-eat foods, mussels, soft cheese and unpasteurised milk.

The truth is that soy is great for you, whereas the raw meat and raw dairy that you and Mercola advocate, will f*****g KILL YOU.

 

[wookster]

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

http://www.ecologos.org/phytoestrogens.htm

Gastroenterology 1987 Aug;93(2):225-33
Dietary estrogens--a probable cause of infertility and liver disease in captive cheetahs.
Setchell KD, Gosselin SJ, Welsh MB, Johnston JO, Balistreri WF, Kramer LW, Dresser BL, Tarr MJ

The cheetah in the wild is "racing towards extinction" mostly due to habitat destruction. Its survival will probably depend on accelerated captive breeding. At this time, however, reproductive failure and liver disease threaten the future of the captive cheetah population. Histopathological evaluation of more than 100 cheetah livers identified venocclusive disease as the main hepatic lesion responsible for liver disease in this species. Analysis of the commercial feline diet by high-performance liquid chromatography and gas-liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry revealed large amounts of two phytoestrogens identified as daidzein and genistein. These compounds were found to be derived from a soybean product that was a component of the cheetah diet, and their concentrations both ranged from 18 to 35 micrograms/g diet. The adult cheetah consequently consumes approximately 50 mg/day of these weak estrogens. When extracts of the diet were tested for estrogenicity using a bioassay, a dose-related increase in uterine weight was observed. In 4 cheetahs studied, withdrawal of this feline diet by substitution with a chicken diet resulted in an improvement in conventional liver function tests and a normalization in the appearance of hepatic mitochondria. We conclude that the relatively high concentrations of phytoestrogens from soybean protein present in the commercial diet fed to captive cheetahs in North American zoos may be one of the major factors in the decline of fertility and in the etiology of liver disease in this species. The survival of the captive cheetah population could depend upon a simple change of diet by excluding exogenous estrogen.

 

[wookster]

Soy appears to also deactivate DHT via another molecule produced as a byproduct?... :hairy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3607815.stm

US researchers found a molecule produced in the intestine when soy is digested stops a hormone which can fuel prostate growth or cause baldness.

Writing in the journal Biology of Reproduction, they said the finding could explain why Japanese men, who eat more soya, rarely have prostate cancer.

They said the molecule could be used as a treatment for cancer and baldness.

These findings are of immense clinical importance

Dr Kenneth Setchell, Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center
The team found that the molecule, equol, "handcuffs" the male hormone DHT - a by-product of testosterone.

 

[michael barry]

WidowsPeak,

I assure you that Wookie is NOT Oscar the Grunge. I remember that guy used to post on HLR. He was certain that male hormone has nothing to do with baldness and shampoo was the only reason why human males lost their hair.


Wookie had a link a while back about lavendar and tea trea oil in soaps and how docs were noticeing gyno in some boys being on the rise. They concluded the estrogenic compounds in each were probably the cause. The isoflavone in soy, genistien, downregulates AR expression by about 40% IF YOU GET TONS OF IT. I think phytoestrogens are alright for adult men who have already formed sexually myself. I wouldn't want for 10 year old boys getting too much of phytoestrogens though..........it could impair the development of their genitalia if enough receptor blockage took place. Thats not a good thing.


You, Widowspeak, have found beta sis to be a good anti-androgen. I deeply suspect it is also, hence my little experiment with pine oil on my hand (I'll obviously be looking of other topicals than pine oil if the experiment its a success).


Widowspeak...........................I think for a comprehensive stategy to fight further baldness is going to consist of cutting DHT (green tea and GLA would be the natural routes to do this), cutting receptor binding of androgens in the scalp (beta sis---some interally, some topically), using products like curcumin and vitamin E to downregulate TGF-beta 1, protien kinease C, TNF-alpha as much as we can because lets face it Widows.......................only castration is going to keep androgens completely away from our hair and even that will still see a bit of androgenic stimulation, upping SBHG in our bodies by wiser dietarty choices (green tea can help here), and finally topically repairing the immuno damage to the scalp as much as possible with anti-inflammatory and superoxide dismutase compounds (peptides like Folligen are cheap, proanthocyanidin oligomers as in barley extract, green apple peels, grape seeds, possibly blueberries and hops).............................


anything beyond that that acts as a stimulant could be icing on the cake-----abscorbyl palmitate (a specific form of vitamin C), minoxidil, topical caffeine, whatever is found to be a hypertrichotic like Tempol or phenytoin, etc.



I think Doctor is right on target about the curcumin and vitamin E. Its practiaclly impossible to keep androgens utterly and totally away from our hair.........................those things would help. Personally Im anxious for ICX's product to imprint our existing hair with more donor-area DNA profiles.

 

[Widows_Peak]

I need clarification.

Is wookiewannabe also Oscar the Grunge or not?
If the answer is no, then I apologize.

If so, then let me add some more vitriol, a few F bombs, and something derogatory about his mother, to my post.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, Michael Barry, I wanted to say that after I stopped using shampoo on my hair 2 years ago, I saw the fall out drop to almost zero.
Then the crown began to regrow.

It doesn't seem to work very well as a standalone, but in combo with beta-sis, it works like nothing else I've found.

I think that the reason for its efficacy is that the sulphates in shampoo can cause irritation to the scalp, raising the bodys 5ar, which combines with T to make more DHT.

You can see all my photos at http://hairregrowth.blogspot.com

 

[docj077]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, Michael Barry, I wanted to say that after I stopped using shampoo on my hair 2 years ago, I saw the fall out drop to almost zero.
Then the crown began to regrow.

It doesn't seem to work very well as a standalone, but in combo with beta-sis, it works like nothing else I've found.

I think that the reason for its efficacy is that the sulphates in shampoo can cause irritation to the scalp, raising the bodys 5ar, which combines with T to make more DHT.

You can see all my photos at http://hairregrowth.blogspot.com

It would not surprise me if a lot of male pattern baldness in men is initiated by irritation from shampoo or something as simple as a sun burn on the scalp.

I've read a few studies claiming that TGF-beta (which is a molecule that I'm actually trying to inhibit) is responsible for protecting the hair follicle by switching it into the telogen phase when any damage occurs to the area around the follicle and to the follicle itself. So, TGF-beta goes from being protective to the hair follicle to actually causing its demise.

So, any scalp irritation in people susceptible to male pattern baldness will simply start the miniaturization process when both androgens and immune modulating molecules are present, which is in adulthood.

Really, I'm not sure if androgens are the cause of the problem. It's almost like they're just helpless bystanders as a much larger process is taking place. It's tough to say if inhibition of androgens is even necessary.

It's a fascinating theory, but I don't know if one can jump to such a conclusion.

 

[barnabas]

Widows_Peak - you say you cut shampoo out of your life entirely? What do you clean your hair with now? I have incredibly sensitive skin and my scalp is in a near-constant state of major itching with minor flaking/scaling (doctors say it looks healthy, but it's definitely irritated). I've used shampoo EVERY DAY all my life (oh, the influence of parents), and for as long as I can remember my scalp has been somewhat irritated. It got especially bad last winter, when I switched to some other brand - I was constantly itching and would have thick buildups of dead skin that I'd have to scrape off. I have been using nizoral and occasionally other dandruff shampoos for about 3 months and I think it's just making the problem worse, it's gotten much drier and itchier up there and hair loss has accelerated. I think cutting shampoo out would be a good idea, but on top of having extremely sensitive scalp I have extremely oily hair which would have to be dealt with somehow.

I don't really know what to do to fix the itching/scaling problem - I've just started using folligen spray applied with a dropper to my scalp, but so far there's no sign it will help matters, I'm still itching like crazy. My guess is that I might be in the same situation as you, and that it's my skin reacting to shampoo.

Also - I'm currently on propecia - does that produce a similar effect to your taking beta-sis? I have read through most of this thread and I'm not clear on whether you apply it topically or just take supplements. I'm not going to get off it and start taking beta-sis or anything, I just wonder if that would be a helpful addition or would be doing essentially the same thing.

 

[wookster]

http://www.docguide.com/news/content.ns ... 700055615D

They found that the scalp dermis was significantly thicker in the men with androgenic alopecia than in the subjects without alopecia. This difference was due to a more severe elastosis in baldness. The researchers found that the earliest signs of elastosis due to sun exposure preceded hair thinning. A negative exponential correlation was found between hair diameter and severity of solar elastosis (when elastosis was thicker than 0.2 mm).

 

[wookster]

How much phytoestrogen can be safely consumed by humans?

http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordb ... lover.html

A diet containing an extract from subterranean clover ("subclover" a low-growing clover that buries its seed heads in the soil) has been shown to greatly reduce egg productionby quail. That plant, among others, produces "phytoestrogens," chemical compounds that are similar to the hormones involved in regulating reproduction in birds and mammals. The phytoestrogens may play a role in protecting the plants against predation by herbivores. Their importance in regulating the reproduction of animals that eat them was first noted when subclover was found to inhibit the breeding of Australian sheep.