DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study
- Thread starter michael barry
- Start date
docj077 said:
Interesting that a thread that started with a study indicating a direct role for DHT in hair loss has swung all the way to the other extreme and is now in Regrowth.com/Immortal Hair territory. All we need now is someone to bring up demodex mites and the journey would be complete.
Reality check, people -- castration halts hair loss at whatever stage it is at at the time of the castration; people born without Type II 5AR never lose hair, ever; men lose hair at vastly higher rates than women and in a particular pattern almost never seen in women except those with abnormally "male" hormone profiles. If this and more isn't evidence for androgens being central to hair loss then I don't know what more evidence you could possibly want.
Now, as for treating hair loss by focusing on downstream effects rather than addressing DHT head-on -- in theory, it is certainly a valid approach, and one that would avoid any complications that might result from inhibiting 5AR activity. That said, we have almost no idea what dosage and delivery of the various vitamins and herbs suggested here would be necessary to have the desired effects. My guess is that fairly low doses of a small number of these herbs would probably not halt loss in the absence of finasteride or other strong treatment in someone already balding. It should also be noted that what is being suggested here re: turmeric, GTE, and so forth is not exactly new; it appears to be a successor to the so-called "Waseda" regimen that has been around the Internet hair loss community for some time, with decidedly mixed results. Enthusiasm for that regimen was certainly higher some years ago than it is now -- that is probably meaningful.
I do take some of these herbs, by the way.
Widows_Peak
Member
- Reaction score
- 0
Bryan said:
We've danced this dance before over at hairsite, Mr. Sheldon.
As you may, or may not, recall, I posted something that a doctor had mentioned about skin irritation raising 5ar.
You didn't "buy it", so I'm not gonna bother again.
https://www.storesonline.com/site/1243955/page/663696
Androgenic Alopecia and Scalp Inflammation related?
A. Tosti, BM Piraccini, S. Mantovani Department of Dermatology University of Bologna, Italy.
Hair loss 101
So what makes your hair fall out? Well for a long time scientists thought that DHT was the sole cause of hair loss, but this does not appear to be the case. As most of you already know, androgens such as testosterone (natural and otherwise) can convert to DHT by the previously mentioned enzyme 5AR. People who have high levels of the enzyme 5AR have higher levels of DHT and are prone to losing their hair. Men with a congenital deficiency in 5AR show no receding of the hair line. This knowledge of the relationship of DHT to hair loss kicked off the big race to find things that shut down the 5AR enzyme and thus reduce the amount of DHT. Simple enough right? Well I have said it a thousand times before and I will now say it a thousand and one times: two plus two rarely makes four in the human body and this is the case again regarding the relationship of DHT to hair loss.
People and researchers who used 5AR inhibitors such as Proscar and Saw Palmetto found it helped with the hair loss but in no way shut it down or regrew much of the hair that was lost.
I call B.S. on this, as I started regrowing my hair, as have a few others, after taking Saw Palmetto.
What appears to be the ultimate cause of hair loss for most people is an auto immune response where the body actually attacks the hair follicle like some kind of foreign invader thus causing an inflammatory response. By yet unknown mechanisms, DHT causes a change in the follicle signaling the immune system to attack the follicle and your hair starts falling out (If you take a close look, you can actually see a red line of inflammation on the scalp of some people losing their hair).
When I was shapooing, my scalp was red and inflamed all the time.
After I stopped shampooing, my scalp wasn't red anymore.
I think that the "unknown mechanism" might be shampoo, which I believe causes the irritation.
How do we know this? It was discovered that the hair follicles of people losing their hair look very similar under a microscope to people who experience organ rejection after surgery. And, it has been found that the immune system suppressing drug which is used to stop the organ rejection (Cyclosporine) grows hair like crazy because it shuts down the immune response in the body. A cure you say? NO! If you take some Cyclosporine and you grow hair it will be because you have no immune system and you will get very sick and possibly die. I sh*t you not-don't mess with this stuff. Anyway, though DHT is clearly important in the cause of hair loss, it is not the final cause and a new race has been started to address the inflammatory response which ultimately causes you hair to fall out. Clearly, you have to attack hair loss from both the DHT and inflammatory response, and that's what most of this article is about....sort of. There are also other factors related to hair growth and hair loss such as nutrition, SODases, Nitric Oxide (NO) and others, but DHT and the immune response are the two biggies.
I agree with this last part, especially.
I ride bike 100 miles a week and am completely vegan.
I stopped using soap and shampoo to fight inflammation on my scalp and face.
I took beta-sis to block the binding of 5ar to T, thus lowering DHT.
Beta-sis also upped my body's SOD, lowered my cholesterol and healed my prostate.
I do the "no spill" (no sex) to increase Nitric Oxide, as increased T= increased acetylcholine = increased NO.
I also take flax, zinc, grape seed extract, spirulina, glucosamine and vitamins and minerals.
As you can see from my photos, it's working like a charm.
http://hairregrowth.blogspot.com
docj077
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 1
However, DHT does not have a direct role in hair loss as it never touches keratinocytes in the hair follicle. It merely binds to androgen receptors present on dermal papillae. The dermal papillae send out secondary molecules (like IFG-1 or TGF-beta) and cause the keratinocytes to either grow hair or stop growing hair. Not only that, but the papillae also secrete substances that alter the structure of the tissue surrounding the hair follicle causing collagen deposition and fibrosis (which also happens to be TGF-beta).
Taking curcumin and GTE is a simple fix for preventing damage to the scalp from DHT and it will even prevent the hair from entering telogen as you will inhibit TGF-beta.
However, regrowth with this regimen is shaky at best as you are not providing hair with a growth stimulant, which is what you do with propecia and dutasteride as their eventual effect is to increase IGF-1 in the hair follicle. This is the same molecule responsible for facial hair growth. What you are doing is maintaining a healthy scalp free of inflammation and hopefully continued fibrosis until a FDA approved hair growth stimulant is released.
The requirement of androgens for hair loss is undeniable when one considers only the upstream mediators of the disease process. However, they are not the molecules responsible for hair loss itself. Not even high levels of 5AR inhibition will regrow hair in some as Testosterone has the same downstream effects on the hair follicle. Both bind the androgen receptor. The downstream molecular mediators do the job of creating an unhealthy scalp environment and that's why castration eliminates progressive balding as you eliminate all mediators in the system.
What I would like to know is, does every man that goes through a castration procedure regrow all his hair? If he does, then DHT is the only mediator we should be concerned of. If it merely stops the male pattern baldness process and doesn't reverse it, then we should be more concerned about the collagen deposition and fibrosis.
From what I've seen of chemically castrated men, the hair loss doesn't reverse. However, I don't know of the effects when a person is physically castrated.
Taking curcumin and GTE is a simple fix for preventing damage to the scalp from DHT and it will even prevent the hair from entering telogen as you will inhibit TGF-beta.
However, regrowth with this regimen is shaky at best as you are not providing hair with a growth stimulant, which is what you do with propecia and dutasteride as their eventual effect is to increase IGF-1 in the hair follicle. This is the same molecule responsible for facial hair growth. What you are doing is maintaining a healthy scalp free of inflammation and hopefully continued fibrosis until a FDA approved hair growth stimulant is released.
The requirement of androgens for hair loss is undeniable when one considers only the upstream mediators of the disease process. However, they are not the molecules responsible for hair loss itself. Not even high levels of 5AR inhibition will regrow hair in some as Testosterone has the same downstream effects on the hair follicle. Both bind the androgen receptor. The downstream molecular mediators do the job of creating an unhealthy scalp environment and that's why castration eliminates progressive balding as you eliminate all mediators in the system.
What I would like to know is, does every man that goes through a castration procedure regrow all his hair? If he does, then DHT is the only mediator we should be concerned of. If it merely stops the male pattern baldness process and doesn't reverse it, then we should be more concerned about the collagen deposition and fibrosis.
From what I've seen of chemically castrated men, the hair loss doesn't reverse. However, I don't know of the effects when a person is physically castrated.
Widows_Peak
Member
- Reaction score
- 0
Transsexual males who take hormones to become women have the same fate as eunuchs.
They don't lose anymore hair, but they don't regrow any hair they lost prior to starting to take hormones (or in the case of eunuchs, since they were castrated).
I, on the other hand, have been regrowing hair for years and I believe that this is by blocking DHT and upping T.
As I've mentioned before, in spite of that study, testosterone grows hair via its relationship to the aforementioned acetylcholine & Nitric Oxide.
They don't lose anymore hair, but they don't regrow any hair they lost prior to starting to take hormones (or in the case of eunuchs, since they were castrated).
I, on the other hand, have been regrowing hair for years and I believe that this is by blocking DHT and upping T.
As I've mentioned before, in spite of that study, testosterone grows hair via its relationship to the aforementioned acetylcholine & Nitric Oxide.
docj077
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 1
Widows_Peak said:
The bolded part confuses me, but I'm sure there's a study somewhere that could explain that observation better. From what I've read, all androgens can bind the androgen receptor including testosterone. However, since testosterone binds weaker to the receptor, it doesn't induce as powerful of a conformational change as DHT, which means it's a weaker transcription factor once the androgen/androgen receptor complex enters the nucleus of a cell. All downstream effects would be altered, as well.
The increase in testosterone due to propecia and avodart in the scalp (at least that's what people around here say happens) is theorized by some people here to be the reason why their recession continues even while on the drugs. However, I really have no idea and I've never read a study that says that.
Perhaps, someone else knows about the link between continued recession and avodart or propecia.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Docj077,
I can relate my personal experience with temporal thinning on propecia. I got on propecia in 97 or 98'. I "held the line for about two years" and then started losing the temples. I have hair about like the actor Jude Law. Nice and thick on top and in the vertex, but temples are receeded. They receeded while on propecia.
Like you, I believe just plain testosterone in high levels (just like the initial post in this thread) can initiate baldness because it activates the same genetic instructions in pre-disposed hair. Since we up testosterone with finasteride our papilla's receptors will see more of it. T isn't as bad as DHT because it, of course, binds more weakly and has 3-4 times less affinity for a receptor. But if you increase T's presence...................its still enough (was with me) as the years pass to start the process.
I'd like to address the other gentleman's assertion about androgens and hair. Men with male pattern baldness have DHT and T. Men withOUT male pattern baldness have DHT and T. Docj077 is right on the money with his ideas about cutting TGF-beta 1, PKC, TNF-alpha 1 and IGF. Its what happens AFTER androgenic transcription by the DNA in your dermal papilla's that makes your hair go. The bad DNA instructs are the culprit. Some men have high testosterone levels, high DHT levels and full beautific heads of hair. They also shampoo every day of the week with strong shampoos. Two of them are my uncles. Diets would be horrible with both of them. Never had a drop of green tea, etc. Just damn good hair genes.
Widows peak............................I believe, like you, that beta sis can be a great anti-androgen. If you get a good amount of it. I think it acts as a phytoestrogen and binds with receptor sites, fooling the receptor into thinking its an estrogen. Wookie posted a while back about the feminizing effects of bourbon alchoholics. Very little body hair, very little pubic hair (!), edema on the legs, a little gyno, etc. Lot of beta sis in bourbon (as well as barley proanthocyanidins). This is why the docs thought it had its effect. The estrogenic activity of the beta sis.
Widows peak, I see you dont like to use shampoo. I actually seen an article about some british women who didnt shampoo for several months as part of an experiment. They cleaned their hair with water. beleive it or not.............................their hair really didnt look bad at all at the conclusion of the experiment. Some of the ladies decided not to begin shampooing again. However, I have to say it.......................because I said it to another no-shampoo guy a while back at hairloss-reversible. You CAN have the best of both worlds if you'd like. You can simply "finger-comb" your hair in the shower, and shampoo the hair between your closed fingers against the back of your hand. Shampoo wont touch your scalp, and your hair gets clean. Just a suggestion if you feel your hair ever appears oily. I would imagine, Widows peak, that if you also use beta sis externally as well as internally.................................it would add to its anti-androgenic effect. However, I imagine, that internally is the better of the two if one had to choose just one way to get it.
I think both Docj077 and widows peak mentioned a "stimulant". Abscorbyl palmitate (a form of vitamin C thats in apple poly and prox-n) is a growth stimulant. Completely natural. Can probably get it or make it yourself. Arginine is in prox-N and Dove shampoo and hairspray. You can get/make it yourself. It would help with nitric oxide. There is always minoxidil, copper peptides. Topical grape seed extract, apple peel extract, barley extract..................................although they probably work externally the same way curcumin and vitamin E would work internally. Phenytoin and Tempol (proxiphen) have hypertrichotic properties.
Latanaprost, a prostaglandin analalogue, is a hypertrichotic. The gamma linolenic acid in borage seed oil is a prostaglandin E-1 analogue, and would probably stimulate your hair. Its in Dove shampoo, Nanoguard, some L'Oreal stuff.
If my back was against the wall to stimulate growth..................Id use prox-N and minoxidil, applied about half an hour apart along with my anti-androgen routine. My personal opinion.
I can relate my personal experience with temporal thinning on propecia. I got on propecia in 97 or 98'. I "held the line for about two years" and then started losing the temples. I have hair about like the actor Jude Law. Nice and thick on top and in the vertex, but temples are receeded. They receeded while on propecia.
Like you, I believe just plain testosterone in high levels (just like the initial post in this thread) can initiate baldness because it activates the same genetic instructions in pre-disposed hair. Since we up testosterone with finasteride our papilla's receptors will see more of it. T isn't as bad as DHT because it, of course, binds more weakly and has 3-4 times less affinity for a receptor. But if you increase T's presence...................its still enough (was with me) as the years pass to start the process.
I'd like to address the other gentleman's assertion about androgens and hair. Men with male pattern baldness have DHT and T. Men withOUT male pattern baldness have DHT and T. Docj077 is right on the money with his ideas about cutting TGF-beta 1, PKC, TNF-alpha 1 and IGF. Its what happens AFTER androgenic transcription by the DNA in your dermal papilla's that makes your hair go. The bad DNA instructs are the culprit. Some men have high testosterone levels, high DHT levels and full beautific heads of hair. They also shampoo every day of the week with strong shampoos. Two of them are my uncles. Diets would be horrible with both of them. Never had a drop of green tea, etc. Just damn good hair genes.
Widows peak............................I believe, like you, that beta sis can be a great anti-androgen. If you get a good amount of it. I think it acts as a phytoestrogen and binds with receptor sites, fooling the receptor into thinking its an estrogen. Wookie posted a while back about the feminizing effects of bourbon alchoholics. Very little body hair, very little pubic hair (!), edema on the legs, a little gyno, etc. Lot of beta sis in bourbon (as well as barley proanthocyanidins). This is why the docs thought it had its effect. The estrogenic activity of the beta sis.
Widows peak, I see you dont like to use shampoo. I actually seen an article about some british women who didnt shampoo for several months as part of an experiment. They cleaned their hair with water. beleive it or not.............................their hair really didnt look bad at all at the conclusion of the experiment. Some of the ladies decided not to begin shampooing again. However, I have to say it.......................because I said it to another no-shampoo guy a while back at hairloss-reversible. You CAN have the best of both worlds if you'd like. You can simply "finger-comb" your hair in the shower, and shampoo the hair between your closed fingers against the back of your hand. Shampoo wont touch your scalp, and your hair gets clean. Just a suggestion if you feel your hair ever appears oily. I would imagine, Widows peak, that if you also use beta sis externally as well as internally.................................it would add to its anti-androgenic effect. However, I imagine, that internally is the better of the two if one had to choose just one way to get it.
I think both Docj077 and widows peak mentioned a "stimulant". Abscorbyl palmitate (a form of vitamin C thats in apple poly and prox-n) is a growth stimulant. Completely natural. Can probably get it or make it yourself. Arginine is in prox-N and Dove shampoo and hairspray. You can get/make it yourself. It would help with nitric oxide. There is always minoxidil, copper peptides. Topical grape seed extract, apple peel extract, barley extract..................................although they probably work externally the same way curcumin and vitamin E would work internally. Phenytoin and Tempol (proxiphen) have hypertrichotic properties.
Latanaprost, a prostaglandin analalogue, is a hypertrichotic. The gamma linolenic acid in borage seed oil is a prostaglandin E-1 analogue, and would probably stimulate your hair. Its in Dove shampoo, Nanoguard, some L'Oreal stuff.
If my back was against the wall to stimulate growth..................Id use prox-N and minoxidil, applied about half an hour apart along with my anti-androgen routine. My personal opinion.
wookster
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 0
Wookie-wannabe - have you EVER made a post that had any sort of point, at all? Everything I've ever seen is some either completely bogus misinformation (like, soy will kill you) or some completely unrelated and worthless link (like this and that thing about "beardlings"), with some random section highlighted and a bunch of the same emoticon expressing some sort of reaction. Surely you're just attempting to be an annoying troll, hence the shrek avatar? Or are you just a computer?
wookster
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 0
barnabas said:
As I recall, Widows_Peak claims that testosterone GROWS hair when 5AR type 2 has been inhibited. But THAT appears to be an incorrect assumption on his part.
On the other hand YOU and BUBKA are following me around this forum, posting ridicule and insults.
It appears that I am not the troll.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Effect of 5alpha-Dihydrotestosterone and Testosterone on Apoptosis in Human Dermal Papilla Cells.Winiarska A, Mandt N, Kamp H, Hossini A, Seltmann H, Zouboulis CC, Blume-Peytavi U.
Department of Dermatology and Allergy, Charite-Universitatsmedizin Berlin, Berlin, Germany.
Pathogenetic mechanisms in androgenetic alopecia are not yet fully understood; however, it is commonly accepted that androgens like testosterone (T) and 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (5alpha-DHT) inhibit hair follicle activity with early induction of the catagen. Thus, we investigated the influence of T and 5alpha-DHT on proliferation, cell death and bcl-2/bax expression in cultured dermal papilla cells (DPC) from nonbalding scalp regions of healthy volunteers. T and 5alpha-DHT induced apoptosis in DPC in a dose-dependent and time-related manner; in addition a necrotic effect due to T at 10(-5)M was found. Interestingly, bcl-2 protein expression was decreased in T- and 5alpha-DHT-treated cells, leading to an increase in the bax/bcl-2 ratio. In addition, T and 5alpha-DHT induced proteolytic cleavage of caspase 8 and inhibited proliferation of DPC at 10(-5)M. High concentrations of T and 5alpha-DHT were needed to induce apoptotic effects in DPC. These data suggest that DPC from nonbalding scalp regions do have the capacity to undergo apoptosis, but need a high androgen stimulus. The present study provides an interesting new pathogenetic approach in androgenetic alopecia. Copyright (c) 2006 S. Karger AG, Basel.
PMID: 16931898 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
It would appear Wookie is right about testosterone being bad for pre-disposed hair.
In the Alpecin trials at the University of Jena, testosterone alone cultivated with hair follicles slowed their growth relative to controlls also.
Department of Dermatology and Allergy, Charite-Universitatsmedizin Berlin, Berlin, Germany.
Pathogenetic mechanisms in androgenetic alopecia are not yet fully understood; however, it is commonly accepted that androgens like testosterone (T) and 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (5alpha-DHT) inhibit hair follicle activity with early induction of the catagen. Thus, we investigated the influence of T and 5alpha-DHT on proliferation, cell death and bcl-2/bax expression in cultured dermal papilla cells (DPC) from nonbalding scalp regions of healthy volunteers. T and 5alpha-DHT induced apoptosis in DPC in a dose-dependent and time-related manner; in addition a necrotic effect due to T at 10(-5)M was found. Interestingly, bcl-2 protein expression was decreased in T- and 5alpha-DHT-treated cells, leading to an increase in the bax/bcl-2 ratio. In addition, T and 5alpha-DHT induced proteolytic cleavage of caspase 8 and inhibited proliferation of DPC at 10(-5)M. High concentrations of T and 5alpha-DHT were needed to induce apoptotic effects in DPC. These data suggest that DPC from nonbalding scalp regions do have the capacity to undergo apoptosis, but need a high androgen stimulus. The present study provides an interesting new pathogenetic approach in androgenetic alopecia. Copyright (c) 2006 S. Karger AG, Basel.
PMID: 16931898 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
It would appear Wookie is right about testosterone being bad for pre-disposed hair.
In the Alpecin trials at the University of Jena, testosterone alone cultivated with hair follicles slowed their growth relative to controlls also.
- Reaction score
- 42
Widows_Peak said:
It's Shelton, not Sheldon, Mr. Peak.
Widows_Peak said:
I don't even have any recollection of that discussion, which suggests to me that your argument at the time was unimpressive and forgettable. Let the record show that no, you have no scientific evidence to back up your claim.
Bryan
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
I fail to understand how skin irritation could possibly raise alpha five reductase activity??????
I mean, the 5AR2 enzyme is present in the inner portion of the outer root sheath. The 5AR1 enzyme is present in the sebocytes and the sebaceous glands. They are "stuck there" and their job is to convert T to DHT when T makes it to them? I suppose some skin irritation might be able to send signals that finally get interpreted by the gonads or adrenals to make more TESTOSTERONE, but I dont know how they'd put more 5AR of either kind "around".
Does anyone have a "clue" to how that might even be possible?
I mean, the 5AR2 enzyme is present in the inner portion of the outer root sheath. The 5AR1 enzyme is present in the sebocytes and the sebaceous glands. They are "stuck there" and their job is to convert T to DHT when T makes it to them? I suppose some skin irritation might be able to send signals that finally get interpreted by the gonads or adrenals to make more TESTOSTERONE, but I dont know how they'd put more 5AR of either kind "around".
Does anyone have a "clue" to how that might even be possible?
Widows_Peak
Member
- Reaction score
- 0
Simply put, my experience was that when I was shampooing, I was losing about 10-20 hairs a day.
When I stopped shampooing, my fallout went down to 1-2 hairs a day.
Some have experienced the same thing.
Others have not.
Take from that what you will.
This is the post that got me started with beta-sis.
I have had similar experiences as his, i.e. after taking beta-sis, my libido increased and my voice got deeper.
These are signs that one's testosterone levels are increasing.
http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... &mode=full
Subject: "Beta-sitosterol: My experiences"
Forrister Mon Sep-15-03 06:16 AM
Member since Jul 12th 2003
64 posts
#4178, "Beta-sitosterol: My experiences"
I have experimented on 2 occasions with oral beta-sitosterol, and both times I have seen amazing results - better than with any other treatment I've tried, including Dutasteride.
The first time was in 1999, when I was disillusioned with Propecia, which wasn't doing anything for me. I read about beta-sitosterol on the web and ordered 'Phytosterol Complex' from Source Naturals. I was taking 1 pill (108mg b-sitosterol) with each meal, 3 meals a day. Within about 2 weeks my existing hair had thickened up and got much darker and healthier-looking (people were commenting on how different my hair looked, even though I hadn't said I was taking anything). I kept taking it for what must have been about 6 weeks and during that time my hair just kept growing, like it hasn't done since I was about 16. I also suffer from mild acne and this completely disappeared during the time I was taking beta-sitosterol. Also my voice got a lot deeper and my libido went up. However as I continued taking it I just felt more and more fatigued, with hypoglycemia symptoms, and eventually I had to stop.
Actually at the time I don't think I really believed the results I was getting could have been down to the beta-sitosterol, because I didn't think such results were possible with a natural product. I thought it must have been some kind of delayed effect of the Propecia.
I tried using beta-sitosterol again a year later, but this time I was taking 300mg with each meal. After about one week I had my hair regrowing thickening up all over and even regrowing at the temples (which hadn't happened the previous time on the lower dose). Once again my voice got a lot deeper but the hypoglycemia symptoms also came on much quicker and I had to stop taking the stuff after only 2 weeks. I suffered from hypoglycemia symptoms for probably a few months after that even not taking any more beta-sitosterol, but eventually my health came back to normal.
I am writing about this because I find it frustrating that no-one else has had similar experiences using beta-sitosterol and because it doesn't seem to have had any recognition for its DHT-lowering abilities. As I've said before, I don't think oral beta-sitosterol is a long-term solution because it lowers cholesterol too much throughout the body, but I do think that a beta-sitosterol based topical could well produce the same results, without the systemic side-effects.
http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... &mode=full
Forrister Tue Sep-16-03 02:17 PM
Member since Jul 12th 2003
64 posts
#4205, "RE: Beta-sitosterol: My experiences"
I never noticed a drop in libido, but I only ever took beta-sitosterol for a matter of weeks. Then again, when I took Proscar (for years) and Dutasteride (for 6 months) I never experienced a drop in libido.
I think that using beta-sitosterol, my testosterone levels went through the roof, because my voice got much deeper, and that never happened with Finasteride or Dutasteride. Actually I had a blood test done the first time I was taking beta-sitosterol and my testosterone was higher than the upper bound of the normal range. Probably because beta-sitosterol also blocks aromatase, with the resultant effect on the testicular-pituitary-hypothalmus (is that right?) axis.
When I stopped shampooing, my fallout went down to 1-2 hairs a day.
Some have experienced the same thing.
Others have not.
Take from that what you will.
This is the post that got me started with beta-sis.
I have had similar experiences as his, i.e. after taking beta-sis, my libido increased and my voice got deeper.
These are signs that one's testosterone levels are increasing.
http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... &mode=full
Subject: "Beta-sitosterol: My experiences"
Forrister Mon Sep-15-03 06:16 AM
Member since Jul 12th 2003
64 posts
#4178, "Beta-sitosterol: My experiences"
I have experimented on 2 occasions with oral beta-sitosterol, and both times I have seen amazing results - better than with any other treatment I've tried, including Dutasteride.
The first time was in 1999, when I was disillusioned with Propecia, which wasn't doing anything for me. I read about beta-sitosterol on the web and ordered 'Phytosterol Complex' from Source Naturals. I was taking 1 pill (108mg b-sitosterol) with each meal, 3 meals a day. Within about 2 weeks my existing hair had thickened up and got much darker and healthier-looking (people were commenting on how different my hair looked, even though I hadn't said I was taking anything). I kept taking it for what must have been about 6 weeks and during that time my hair just kept growing, like it hasn't done since I was about 16. I also suffer from mild acne and this completely disappeared during the time I was taking beta-sitosterol. Also my voice got a lot deeper and my libido went up. However as I continued taking it I just felt more and more fatigued, with hypoglycemia symptoms, and eventually I had to stop.
Actually at the time I don't think I really believed the results I was getting could have been down to the beta-sitosterol, because I didn't think such results were possible with a natural product. I thought it must have been some kind of delayed effect of the Propecia.
I tried using beta-sitosterol again a year later, but this time I was taking 300mg with each meal. After about one week I had my hair regrowing thickening up all over and even regrowing at the temples (which hadn't happened the previous time on the lower dose). Once again my voice got a lot deeper but the hypoglycemia symptoms also came on much quicker and I had to stop taking the stuff after only 2 weeks. I suffered from hypoglycemia symptoms for probably a few months after that even not taking any more beta-sitosterol, but eventually my health came back to normal.
I am writing about this because I find it frustrating that no-one else has had similar experiences using beta-sitosterol and because it doesn't seem to have had any recognition for its DHT-lowering abilities. As I've said before, I don't think oral beta-sitosterol is a long-term solution because it lowers cholesterol too much throughout the body, but I do think that a beta-sitosterol based topical could well produce the same results, without the systemic side-effects.
http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... &mode=full
Forrister Tue Sep-16-03 02:17 PM
Member since Jul 12th 2003
64 posts
#4205, "RE: Beta-sitosterol: My experiences"
I never noticed a drop in libido, but I only ever took beta-sitosterol for a matter of weeks. Then again, when I took Proscar (for years) and Dutasteride (for 6 months) I never experienced a drop in libido.
I think that using beta-sitosterol, my testosterone levels went through the roof, because my voice got much deeper, and that never happened with Finasteride or Dutasteride. Actually I had a blood test done the first time I was taking beta-sitosterol and my testosterone was higher than the upper bound of the normal range. Probably because beta-sitosterol also blocks aromatase, with the resultant effect on the testicular-pituitary-hypothalmus (is that right?) axis.
Widows_Peak
Member
- Reaction score
- 0
Bryan said:
I don't even have any recollection of that discussion, which suggests to me that your argument at the time was unimpressive and forgettable. Let the record show that no, you have no scientific evidence to back up your claim.
Bryan[/quote:a0fec]
Let the record show that 2 years later, I have regrown thousands of hairs, while you are still bald and still an a**h**.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Widowspeak,
You and Bryan might have had a constructive dialogue on the merits of inflammatory response in the dermis upping the activity of alpha five type one or two and making more DHT if you didn't call him an a**h**. Now, however, that probably wont happen.
Whether you agree with Bryan, Stephen Foote, Dave001, JTG, James Bond, The Almighty God of Hairloss (smart guy there), Matt5000, Jacob, docj077, CCS, or any other of the RSG's (real smart guys) on these various hair sites................I try to keep in mind that they are online trying to share what they have learned with others for free. Not trying to make any money or anything for their knowledge. Bryan especially, could have started a paysite explaining his interpretation of various studies, etc.
Lost opportunity.
By the way, because I know youre interested in beta sis.........[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov ... t=Abstract[/url]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/5/1145
You might find those three, especially the last one, interesting. Might also have a glass of bourbon tonight if you feel like a drink and forget the beta sis pill............................by the way there is barley in bourbon and you'd be getting some of the barley proanthcyanidins that work against TGF-beta 1 almost certainly. I think that THIS is the reason drunks sometimes have strangely good hair.
You and Bryan might have had a constructive dialogue on the merits of inflammatory response in the dermis upping the activity of alpha five type one or two and making more DHT if you didn't call him an a**h**. Now, however, that probably wont happen.
Whether you agree with Bryan, Stephen Foote, Dave001, JTG, James Bond, The Almighty God of Hairloss (smart guy there), Matt5000, Jacob, docj077, CCS, or any other of the RSG's (real smart guys) on these various hair sites................I try to keep in mind that they are online trying to share what they have learned with others for free. Not trying to make any money or anything for their knowledge. Bryan especially, could have started a paysite explaining his interpretation of various studies, etc.
Lost opportunity.
By the way, because I know youre interested in beta sis.........[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov ... t=Abstract[/url]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/5/1145
You might find those three, especially the last one, interesting. Might also have a glass of bourbon tonight if you feel like a drink and forget the beta sis pill............................by the way there is barley in bourbon and you'd be getting some of the barley proanthcyanidins that work against TGF-beta 1 almost certainly. I think that THIS is the reason drunks sometimes have strangely good hair.
- Reaction score
- 42
michael barry said:
Me too. I think that idea is nothing but pure speculation. I suppose Widows_Peak could actually have seen a doctor mention that possibility like he claims, but I think it was nothing but a shrug and a guess on the doctor's part.
michael barry said:
The all-important dermal papilla, too.
michael barry said:
Androgens can apparently upregulate the production of 5a-reductase, at least the type 2 version. Several times in my years-long dialogue with Stephen Foote, I've cited a study which measured (among other things) RNA levels of androgen receptors and the two isoforms of 5a-reductase within cultured human scalp hair follicles, when stimulated with added testosterone. They found that extra testosterone greatly upregulated the production of the type 2 enzyme, but the type 1 enzyme was relatively unaffected. Androgen receptors seemed to be mildly downregulated (which shouldn't be surprising).
So androgens apparently can alter 5a-reductase production within cells (scalp hair follicle cells, at least), but that still doesn't explain how local irritation in the scalp could supposedly increase the enzyme. I don't think it does.
Bryan