DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study

[docj077]

Now I know for sure that you didn't understand what I was saying all that time!

I'm going to explain it to you in more detail, and hopefully this will clear it up once and for all: DHT is also a player (along with testosterone and estrogen) in the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis that controls the production of testosterone. When you take finasteride or dutasteride, your levels of DHT sharply drop, which the brain interprets as a sign of decreased androgenic stimulation. Its response to that is to step-up the production of testosterone, to compensate. It does that by sending the chemical signals LH and FSH to the testes to tell them to start working overtime.

THAT is why testosterone increases when you take finasteride: the brain tells the testes to make more of it. It's not the simplistic notion that less T is turned into DHT, so there's more T floating around. In other words, the body's set point for testosterone (that is, the level of testosterone that the brain WANTS to have) is actually increased, and it's MAINTAINED at that new, higher level, for as long as you take the finasteride. Now do you understand what I'm saying?

Bryan

Yes. That' actually what I was saying. All androgens and estrogen negatively inhibit the HPG axis. The DHT will not necessarily be interpreted as a decrease in androgens as I'm pretty sure that testosterone and DHT bind the same receptors and inhibit their perspective targets molecule by molecule, but I'm not sure about the receptor responses for the two molecules in the brain. A drop in DHT to me should mean more testosterone taking it's place and thus simply regulating the system the same, but I don't know if the brain interprets it that way. If it isn't interpreted as molecule for another molecule in the rest of the body, then one (granted it's a big leap) could assume it isn't the same way in the brain.

What I'm saying is the concept of the shifting set point is relative to the person taking the drug. Not everyone will shift their set point for testosterone so efficiently and thus have no side effects.

That's all I'm trying to say.

Also, if testosterone and DHT do have the same effects on the receptors they bind in the brain, then neither of us will be correct as there would be no set point change for either molecule, since they'd be binding the same receptor and having the same effect.

In your opinion, do you think the HPG axis could keep up with this? I really don't know.

 

[Bryan]

Yes. That' actually what I was saying. All androgens and estrogen negatively inhibit the HPG axis. The DHT will not necessarily be interpreted as a decrease in androgens as I'm pretty sure that testosterone and DHT bind the same receptors and inhibit their perspective targets molecule by molecule, but I'm not sure about the receptor responses for the two molecules in the brain. A drop in DHT to me should mean more testosterone taking it's place and thus simply regulating the system the same, but I don't know if the brain interprets it that way.

Regardless of the exact details of how that feedback mechanism works, a decline in DHT (by the use of finasteride or dutasteride) _does_ cause a rise in LH and FSH, which in turn causes a rise in testosterone.

BTW, I should mention here that I've read some speculation by authorities (one was in an article a while back written by a doctor for a bodybuilding site) that testosterone and DHT _can_ in fact activate slightly different genes, or sets of genes. The doctor cited some indirect evidence for that, which escapes me at the moment.

If it isn't interpreted as molecule for another molecule in the rest of the body, then one (granted it's a big leap) could assume it isn't the same way in the brain.

It may not be perfectly interpreted as molecule for molecule ANYWHERE in the body.

What I'm saying is the concept of the shifting set point is relative to the person taking the drug. Not everyone will shift their set point for testosterone so efficiently and thus have no side effects.

What exactly do you mean by "efficiently" in this context? You've got me worried again that we're still not talking about the same thing!

Also, if testosterone and DHT do have the same effects on the receptors they bind in the brain, then neither of us will be correct as there would be no set point change for either molecule, since they'd be binding the same receptor and having the same effect.

Look, LH and FSH increase with finasteride usage. That's the bottom-line.

In your opinion, do you think the HPG axis could keep up with this? I really don't know.

UH-OH...now I'm REALLY worried again! :lol: What on earth do you mean, "keep up with this"?? Keep up with WHAT??

Bryan

 

[docj077]

Bryan,

It really doesn't matter. I think we're saying the same thing, but just approaching it from different angles. I have the studies right in front of me on pubmed. That's the best I can do. I have that and my medical physiology book which explains the androgen receptor and how testosterone and DHT change the binding affinity of the receptor complex for DNA.

There's no point arguing.

Also, sarcasm doesn't help anyone here. So, try not to be so obvious when you use it.

 

[Bryan]

I don't think we're saying the same thing, and that thing about the HPG-axis "keeping up" is a pretty good indication of that.

I haven't used sarcasm in any of these posts.

 

[CCS]

without getting into extreme detail, what are the basic steps that happen AFTER an androgen binds with the androgen receptor, leading up to the damage that happens, or the cell change, or the immune system getting attracted, whatever happens?

I doubt that is in a regular physiology book since balding follicles probably don't act the same as normal follicles.

I'm just wondering if there are any stages in the pipeline after the binding that we can interfer with, to mitigate whatever androgen activity we were not able to stop the first time.

 

[HARM1]

without getting into extreme detail, what are the basic steps that happen AFTER an androgen binds with the androgen receptor, leading up to the damage that happens, or the cell change, or the immune system getting attracted, whatever happens?

I doubt that is in a regular physiology book since balding follicles probably don't act the same as normal follicles.

I'm just wondering if there are any stages in the pipeline after the binding that we can interfer with, to mitigate whatever androgen activity we were not able to stop the first time.

man, I don't think that anybody on this site can tell you what happens leading up to the damage that happens, or the cell change, or the immune system getting attracted, whatever happens?

only speculations

 

[Bryan]

Well, nobody knows the basic steps (yet) that happen after androgens affect hair follicles. There seems to be general agreement that TGF-beta is one of the substances that's differentially affected in scalp hair follicles and body hair follicles, but nobody knows WHY they are differentially affected in that regard. And I'm sure that's not the only substance involved.

They're trying to sort all this out as we speak.

 

[CCS]

Do we know if there is more TGF-beta or less?

 

[docj077]

Do we know if there is more TGF-beta or less?

More...lots more. This is just for testosterone administration. I'll look for something that discussed DHT.

Perifollicular fibrosis: pathogenetic role in androgenetic alopecia.Yoo HG, Kim JS, Lee SR, Pyo HK, Moon HI, Lee JH, Kwon OS, Chung JH, Kim KH, Eun HC, Cho KH.
Department of Dermatology, Seoul National University College of Medicine, Laboratory of Cutaneous Aging and Hair Research, Clinical Research Institute, Seoul National University Hospital, and Institute of Dermatological Science, Seoul National University.

Androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) is a dihydrotestosterone (DHT)-mediated process, characterized by continuous miniaturization of androgen reactive hair follicles and accompanied by perifollicular fibrosis of follicular units in histological examination. Testosterone (T: 10(-9)-10(-7) M) treatment increased the expression of type I procollagen at mRNA and protein level. Pretreatment of finasteride (10(-8) M) inhibited the T-induced type I procollagen expression at mRNA (40.2%) and protein levels (24.9%). T treatment increased the expression of transforming growth factor-beta 1 (TGF-beta1) at protein levels by 81.9% in the human scalp dermal fibroblasts (DFs). Pretreatment of finasteride decreased the expression of TGF-beta1 protein induced by an average of T (30.4%). The type I procollagen expression after pretreatment of neutralizing TGF-beta1 antibody (10 mug/ml) was inhibited by an average of 54.3%. Our findings suggest that T-induced TGF-beta1 and type I procollagen expression may contribute to the development of perifollicular fibrosis in the Androgenetic Alopecia, and the inhibitory effects on T-induced procollagen and TGF-beta1 expression may explain another possible mechanism how finasteride works in Androgenetic Alopecia.

 

[Bryan]

TGF-beta is a negative growth factor. Androgens stimulate its production in scalp hair.

 

[CCS]

some people say coligen is good for skin, others say it is the fibrosis.

some say CPs can reverse parafollicular fibrosis, others say it helps skin repair by helping make colligen.

am I missing something here? seems like contradictions.


Bryan, is the angiogenesis of cancer cells similar to the angiogenesis of the beginning of anagen when blood vessels rise up to meet the follicle seedling?

 

[hans]

If theres a marked increase of T due to finasteride, what's to say this extra T (altho less DHT) can be the culprit in people's inability to have success with finasteride? Can this be the reason for the shedding?

 

[hairah]

A general question that's related to this thread: Would a testosterone-raising herbal compound such as Biotest's Tribex possibly lead to more scalp hair loss in those with male pattern baldness?

 

[perceptions]

Stephen, I may have mentioned it, but ICX is going to only test ONE CENTIMETER of scalp in their tests. That is awful news. I mean hell, we have waited all this time for phase two and they are only going to shoot up 20 men with stem cells over a one measly square centimeter? Im very dissapointed. I hope they know that they would have to produce a pretty nice head of hair on a rather bald man before I'd pluck down 10K. Sorry, Im a cynic. I hope they will at least try for a full sqaure inch next time. Hell, only 25 or so hairs might be on a square centimeter of scalp. Im unimpressed.

Michael,

Where did you get this information from ? Can you please reference any article where ICX states that it is going to only test ONE CENTIMETER of scalp in their tests for phase II ?

Thanks.
P

 

[perceptions]

[quote="michael barry":53427]Stephen wrote: "Michael.


However, Matthew has a full head of hair at 31 so i don't think he would be interested. He is strange in that he has next to no beard growth, and only shaves the odd facial hair he has about once a month! He has no body hair at all above the waist, but the hairiest legs you've ever seen!

S Foote.

[/quote:53427]

Stephen,

A bit out of context here but did you start loosing hair in your early 30s or later ? Is your son's maternal uncle or maternal grandfather balding with male pattern baldness ?

 

[michael barry]

Perceptions,

The ICX info is from emails from and to Katherine Harris, a spokesperson at Intercytex. The regulars over at hairsite keep her pretty busy. The Hair Multiplication forum at hairsite is the place where Aderans, Intercytex, and Japan's Phoenixbio (they have filed for a cultured dermal papillas injected back into the scalp for growing new hair-patent now also). There also supposedly a group in Australia working on HM now additionally. All the info I had comes from them. James Bond and John the Revelator are the guys who have actually talked to some of the researhers over there at hairsite. They try to post about once a week. They really keep up with this stuff. The forum is at hairsite.com.


Those guys know alot more than I do. The 1 square centimeter test patch is bigger in terms of hair than you think to be honest. hair transplant surgeons try to put in about 35 follicular units that average about 2.2-2.5 hairs a piece in that amount of area typically.............so youre talking about 70-90 potential new hairs on bald scalp if things go really well. There was a phase 1A at ICX and a phase 1B according to sources at hairsite. ICX did not talk about Ib, but its envisioned that this entailed getting more consistency. In this phase ICX is supposedly hoping for more consistency, thickness, and direction. Its supposed to begin on Sept 30 and we wont know the full results until sometime mid-2007


Personally I want to see some HM hair go through a catagen, telogen, and re-enter an anagen phase myself. Id hate to pay 10-12K and only have hair for 3-5 years. I dont think this will be a problem, but that amount of moollahh....................

 

[S Foote.]

[quote="michael barry":940ab]Stephen wrote: "Michael.


However, Matthew has a full head of hair at 31 so i don't think he would be interested. He is strange in that he has next to no beard growth, and only shaves the odd facial hair he has about once a month! He has no body hair at all above the waist, but the hairiest legs you've ever seen!

S Foote.

Stephen,

A bit out of context here but did you start loosing hair in your early 30s or later ? Is your son's maternal uncle or maternal grandfather balding with male pattern baldness ?

[/quote:940ab]

Hi.

I started to loose my hair at 29. This was a general thinning all over the male pattern baldness area.

Both my father and his father had the same kind of loss at around the same age. My mothers father went slick bald in his early 20's, so there was history on both sides.

Matthew's mothers father died young when he was only 22. His mothers brother however still has a full head of hair at 50, but very little beard or body hair. So i think Matthew takes after his mothers side in the male pattern baldness "lottery".

I also have a younger son Andrew who is 27. He has had strong beard and body hair growth since his teens like me.

I don't see Andrew that much, but the last time i saw him i noticed the beginings of the forehead swelling i have talked about before in regard to male pattern baldness. He is not yet showing any obvious signs of hair loss.

I think i am going to have to have a quite word with him :wink:

S Foote.

 

[Bryan]

I also have a younger son Andrew who is 27. He has had strong beard and body hair growth since his teens like me.

I don't see Andrew that much, but the last time i saw him i noticed the beginings of the forehead swelling i have talked about before in regard to male pattern baldness. He is not yet showing any obvious signs of hair loss.

I think i am going to have to have a quite word with him :wink:

What are you going to do if he laughs at your theory? :wink:

Bryan

 

[Thinning]

A general question that's related to this thread: Would a testosterone-raising herbal compound such as Biotest's Tribex possibly lead to more scalp hair loss in those with male pattern baldness?

I doubt it - likely those only raise your test levels by 15-20%, 30% is max, and your hair is MUCH more sensitve to DHT than to T. If it tripled or quadruples your T, then you would likely start seeing more of an impact on your hairline.

 

[S Foote.]

I also have a younger son Andrew who is 27. He has had strong beard and body hair growth since his teens like me.

I don't see Andrew that much, but the last time i saw him i noticed the beginings of the forehead swelling i have talked about before in regard to male pattern baldness. He is not yet showing any obvious signs of hair loss.

I think i am going to have to have a quite word with him :wink:

What are you going to do if he laughs at your theory? :wink:

Bryan

He won't laugh Bryan because he has been raised to recognise the difference between fantasy and reality. :wink:

Like me, he is not impressed by fancy words with no substance to support such words. 8)

Let's see, in Bryan Sheltons "expert" opinion my theory is ridiculous. In the "REAL" hair loss expert Dr Marty Sawaya's opinion, my theory is quote:

"It is a very complex process, but your thoughts are very organized and on the right path, similar to what others have been proposing"

Hmmmmmm, who should we believe, Bryan Shelton or a "GENUINE" expert???

Your days of fooling vunerable people on internet sites are numbered Bryan 8)

S Foote.