Equol

[47thin]

Hoppi,

If it has a pronounced effect, it has a real chance of side effects. red wheat rice can lower cholesterol, but it also gives you the exact same sides, if you are vulnerable, as I am, as the statins can. Niacin can do the same thing, but it can also hurt your liver. The list goes on and on. I remember there was a belief that mushrooms were "better" than LSD, but that is bullshit, they are both toxic. Some MMA fighter drank a tea made of Psycilocibyn (spelling?) mushrooms and cut out his friends heart yesterday, because he said he was "possessed" . I've seen as many people waste their lives with pot as with booze.

If you find the magic grail, and defeat DHT, and it is replicable, god bless you. I think, though, people have been trying for 4,000 years to solve this, and the only thing that has worked, measurably are finasteride, dutasteride and minoxidil. I don't by the whole Nizoral thing. The studies are way too small and short. I guess what I am saying is that if peppermint or coffee or olive oil worked, we'd have known about it by now, it is really not that hard to test.

Finally, doctors/researchers work on life threatening illnesses first. Going bald is horrible, but it won't kill you. There are too many old prematurely bald guys in their 70's for the average researcher to do anything about it. Cancer, now there is something horrible.

 

[gutted]

have you taken red yeast rice before? did it cause you to shed?

 

[47thin]

I don't think Beta Sitoserol or Red Wheat will cause much shedding. From my understanding Saw Palmetto does not lower DHT in the human body. The latest long term studies show it doesn't do much in terms of the prostate. It can help with cholesterol (most plant sterols do).

The Chinese have been eating soy and drinking green tea, and they have very high rates of male pattern baldness for CENTURIES. Like I said, if it has a real impact, it can have the same side effects. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. Look at all the athletes and fitness nuts who have male pattern baldness. Look at all the movie stars. If it were so easy, then you could just throw some money at it and make it go away.

Here is the funny thing. Us guys want the hair to grow back and expect a real solution, but in a sense, it is liking expecting a way to reduce or remove wrinkles. Haven't you seen how bizarre women look in the wealthy suburbs, where they use collagen, face lifts and botox? Sooner or later it all goes bad, like the guys mom in "Brazil", where her face finally melts. Same goes with hair transplants. Anyone seen Robert Forester or John Cleese?

Anyway, Hoppi, these are no more natural, or hardly more natural than finasteride. They are all synthesized. Also, wasn't there an article about how 6 out of 10 supplaments were filled with pesticides? Good luck, though.

 

[Hoppi]

hehe equol is synthesized and no more natural than finasteride?

 

[helpwithhair]

Should I get this or just get green tea and Soy supplements?

 

[47thin]

Densiti is synthesized, right? Hoppi, my father in law and in-laws all drink green tea and eat soy several times a week, they all have crappy, male pattern baldness hair.

Also, don't believe Jeremy Piven, he's an actor. They lie about everything. That is their business. They don't want you to think they'd had surgery, used finasteride or minoxidil, or anything else us commoners have to. They are all so scary talented, God makes their hair grow back, nose shrink up, and wrinkles go away, unlike the rest of us slobs.

Good luck Hoppi.

 

[Hoppi]

Should I get this or just get green tea and Soy supplements?

to be honest I don't really think it's the green tea that has the biggest impact, but I'm sure it's in there for a reason. I think the main focus of densiti is the probiotics. If it can successfully turn most people into equol producers then I think that is a fantastic thing

 

[garnett]

Sorry Bryan, I actually agree with Hoppi that there is a chance for equol to have less sexual side effects than finasteride. You seem to think that because equol attaches to DHT making it unable to attach to androgen receptors it will have the same effect as finasteride which just radically decreases serum DHT as a result of it blocking 5 AR activity. With finasteride, however, a lot of the sides are occuring because when T is not converted to DHT then the T rises which then allows much more to be aromatized to estradiol. The sexual sides then occur because of the abnormally high amount of estradiol in the body. I know you think estradiol is lovely for hair but there is nothing good that can come from an abnormally high level of this in a male body.

In theory, if equol actually justs binds to DHT making it inactive but it is still therethen T shouldn't rise as a result and there shouldn't be any ensuing increase in estradiol leading to all those unpleasant things like reduced libido, ED, gyno etc. It may well be true what it says on the densiti web site that hormone levels are not affected.

I also agree with another poster who said that almost everything has some type of side effect. I am sure there is some trade off to equol even if it works, however if it is less than that which many people have to make with finasteride it would be worth a try for them. To reject it out of hand, Bryan, as having the exact same sides as finasteride is being a bit narrow minded.

 

[Bryan]

Sorry Bryan, I actually agree with Hoppi that there is a chance for equol to have less sexual side effects than finasteride. You seem to think that because equol attaches to DHT making it unable to attach to androgen receptors it will have the same effect as finasteride which just radically decreases serum DHT as a result of it blocking 5 AR activity. With finasteride, however, a lot of the sides are occuring because when T is not converted to DHT then the T rises which then allows much more to be aromatized to estradiol. The sexual sides then occur because of the abnormally high amount of estradiol in the body.

In the absence of any scientific evidence to the contrary, I would expect equol to have the same effect on estradiol as finasteride.

In theory, if equol actually justs binds to DHT making it inactive but it is still therethen T shouldn't rise as a result and there shouldn't be any ensuing increase in estradiol leading to all those unpleasant things like reduced libido, ED, gyno etc.

Your problem is that you don't really understand _why_ testosterone tends to rise a bit when you take a 5a-reductase inhibitor like finasteride or dutasteride. I've talked about this a number of times over the years on all the hair loss sites, but you must not have seen it! Here it is again, in a nutshell:

People mistakenly think that testosterone rises when you take finasteride/dutasteride simply because less of it is being converted to DHT, so more of it is lounging around unused, with the level slowly rising. But that's NOT how it works! The endocrine system works in a way which is much more subtle than that! DHT is a player (along with testosterone and estrogen) in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA) which regulates the production of testosterone. When you prevent the body from producing DHT from testosterone by using finasteride, the brain notices that, and thinks: "Hmmm....there's less androgenic stimulation going on in the body. I better send the chemical signals to the testes which tell them to start making more testosterone!"

Do you see where I'm going with this? The same thing happens when you have equol. The brain would see less DHT around (because it's been "de-activated" with equol), so it would send the same chemical signals to the testes which force them to make more testosterone.

I also agree with another poster who said that almost everything has some type of side effect. I am sure there is some trade off to equol even if it works, however if it is less than that which many people have to make with finasteride it would be worth a try for them. To reject it out of hand, Bryan, as having the exact same sides as finasteride is being a bit narrow minded.

I hope you now understand where I'm coming from with all this. It's more complicated than you think.

 

[Hoppi]

Additionally the more I learn, the more the inhibition of 5ar seems like a bad idea, which is I assume why so many people get serious side effects. Mopping up DHT is much better for your body. I'm afraid that's about as complex as that gets, as far as I can tell.

What is better for HAIR is another issue, but the results of Densiti have yet to be seen in full and I am looking forward to more trials and testimonials

 

[Bryan]

Additionally the more I learn, the more the inhibition of 5ar seems like a bad idea, which is I assume why so many people get serious side effects. Mopping up DHT is much better for your body.

As long as you're careful to specify that you're talking about other kinds of side effects (other than sexual side effects), I don't have a problem with that statement.

 

[Jacob]

Don't know if this has been posted: http://www.ausiopharma.com/TechPages/Mechanism.html

Ausio’s first product in clinical development is AUS-131, also known in the literature as S-equol

Animal studies have shown that AUS-131 down regulates the expression of the androgen receptor (AR). The growth of the prostate is regulated through the AR by the androgens testosterone and dihydrotestosterone. Since AUS-131 reduces the amount of the AR, growth is inhibited. This novel mechanism of action does not affect androgen levels, thus improving the quality of life for the man with prostate disorders.

Oral and topical.

 

[hairrific]

Don't know if this has been posted: http://www.ausiopharma.com/TechPages/Mechanism.html

Ausio’s first product in clinical development is AUS-131, also known in the literature as S-equol

[quote:1eio2xhb]Animal studies have shown that AUS-131 down regulates the expression of the androgen receptor (AR). The growth of the prostate is regulated through the AR by the androgens testosterone and dihydrotestosterone. Since AUS-131 reduces the amount of the AR, growth is inhibited. This novel mechanism of action does not affect androgen levels, thus improving the quality of life for the man with prostate disorders.

Oral and topical.[/quote:1eio2xhb]


Way to go Jacob! Interesting! I have not seen this before. Mulling over this now!!!

 

[Jacob]

They do mention hair loss:

AUS-131, through down-regulation of the androgen receptor, may offer a novel approach to treatment of acne and other androgen-related disorders, including hair loss.

http://www.ausiopharma.com/BusinessPages/MarketOp.html

 

[Jacob]

http://www.naturalequol.com/index.aspx


http://www.caymanchem.com/app/template/Product.vm/catalog/10010173/a/z

Other sources out there.

 

[Jacob]

http://www.otsuka-global.com/news/regional/2010/0331_01_02.html

NOVEL SOY GERM-BASED DIETARY SUPPLEMENT, SE5-OH CONTAINING
NATURAL S-EQUOL, EXAMINED FOR SAFETY AND INFLUENCE ON HORMONES
IN PRE- AND POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN

 

[Hoppi]

Reports regarding equol are still very promising. If I haven't mentioned I've been chatting to the creator - really cool guy who seems to have great faith in his product.

I will be going on a Densiti and beta-sit combo soon to quench my DHT

 

[Jacob]

Hoppi..how about commenting on the other things just mentioned. They may actually make more sense than taking a green tea/probiotic combo and consuming nasty soy products. I see you may actually go the fermented soy route..but still......

Someone needs to tell the "owner" that Asians consume a lot of FERMENTED soy. You could also give him the link to all the Mercola soy articles. Then maybe suggest human strain based probiotics.

Why not take this combo along with it: http://www.triarco.com/industrymanufacturing/studies/study_alphastat.pdf

 

[hairrific]

http://www.otsuka-global.com/news/regional/2010/0331_01_02.html

NOVEL SOY GERM-BASED DIETARY SUPPLEMENT, SE5-OH CONTAINING
NATURAL S-EQUOL, EXAMINED FOR SAFETY AND INFLUENCE ON HORMONES
IN PRE- AND POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN

http://www.otsuka-global.com/news/regional/2010/0331_01_02.html

How SE5-OH is made

SE5-OH for both studies was created under current Good Manufacturing Practices using the Lactic acid bacterial strain Lactococcus garvieae 20-92 in a patented and proprietary process by the Otsuka Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd. The patented fermentation process converts daidzein, a naturally occurring compound in soy germ, to Natural S-equol, steadily increasing the concentration of Natural S-equol until reaching a maximum concentration at 72 to 96 hours and decreasing daidzein by 95 percent. Following fermentation, the SE5-OH powder undergoes a sterilization process using heat denaturation that deactivates the bacteria. The process is designed to produce a product rich in Natural S-equol that can be used as a nutraceutical ingredient.


I am wondering is this the same thing as the Alphastat® product for sale by Natures Plus ?


Zinc (as monomethionine, sulfate) 15 mg 100%
Alphastat® 200 mg **
(patented complex of Serenoa repens fruit extract and Haematococcus pluvialis algae extract, providing free fatty acids and astaxanthin)

 

[Jacob]

Yep..that is the same product in the pdf link I gave to Hoppi..the one where I told him he should take that as well(which of course would be overkill imo). Swanson also sells it: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU253/ItemDetail?n=0

I thought it was on sale...their sale pages seem to be screwed up at the moment though...