Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[bridgeburn]

¿¿Hola! Bridgeburn Cómo estás?? ¿Cómo fue la evolución de la pelusa en tus dienes ... Creo que tengo algo en la línea del frente que me hace feliz ... si crezco tendré una línea de semicírculo ... ya que me doy cuenta si están recuperando el cabello o productos para el cabello

hey, that's good to hear. the regrowth isn't always linear, seems to move up and down some like the stock market but still goes up overall. The fuzzies for me increased in number, very slowly gradually got better. maybe every 3 months or so slightly thicker. I also have the somewhat "semi-circle" having layers of regrowth, in the layers closer to the center the regrowth is more difficult while further away from that is easier.

Idk about you guys, but there definitely has to be a mid point in being horny all the time and not horny ever... killing your sex drive is ridiculous. I do agree that finasteride bumps T and can increase the sexual thoughts as it happened to me. In that case, finding the right dosage of whatever, (spironolactone,Cypro,etc..), that can give you control is the way to go.. not nuke it entirely lmao

I would agree but it honestly doesn't work like that, at least on my level. estradiol does increase libido in a way, but it is a different kind of libido.
I believe low T And low E would be less libido than low T and high E, for me at least its that way. But the low T high E state will not give the crazy type libido that testosterone would, but more sensual type.

@bridgeburn Hello, It might sound hilarious but you are like a hero for me!

Do you think that there is a decent chance of regrowing hair in the vertex area (I don't care that much about my temples) with cyproterone acetate 25-50mg every day or higher doses?

yes

And what else do you recommend to maximize my chances to regrow hair in this area?

you haven't been balding too long it sounds like. So don't go too extreme just yet. You could consider switching from topical minoxidil to the oral version, which is more effective (although possibly more risky). You could also consider using a topical corticosteriod, there was a guy somewhere on this site here that used topical minoxidil before without results and quit, then later restarted with cortisone added to minoxidil and regrew some minor crown balding. But don't use too much, cause it can cause skin atrophy .

To be honest I'm a little bit afraid of the gyno risk but if that is a price I must pay to get my hair and youth back I'm more than willing to pay this price. Especially since I've heard you can remove it later with a surgery.

if dutasteride isn't working. Although you could give it more time since you only started in October. then an anti-androgen would be the next logical step. You might get gyno with cypro but maybe not. I think trying some cypro for 6 months or so and see how it goes then re-assess would do well.

This may have been asked but, if you could go back to the first times of your hair loss with this mind-set, how would you fight with it? Would you get on an extreme regimen like this, or would you simply get on big three?

Knowing what I know now, probably I'd do a bit more than the big 3.. just in case

 

[Obsessive]

@bridgeburn , @Wolf Pack , @itchymadscalp ,@AnxiousAndy ; I got this artical https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/27/6/677/2355194 over the Internet. This explains the effect of Estrogen on hair follicles. I have problem in understanding the whole artical. Can you explain it to me?

Hmmm...Table 1 in this article does not make me feel good about using estradiol for regrowth...estrogen suppressing anagen phase and suppressing regrowth. I haven't read the article but hopefully beta-estradiol isn't doing this.

 

[michel sapin]

Its a lot worse ... he was really bad :'(

@itchymadscalp ; hey bro , in which coutry did you do your gyno surgery? who was the surgeon? thanks

 

[michel sapin]

hey brah @bridgeburn ; do you know if dutasteride/propecia raise cholesterol level a lot?
Because I took a blood work, and my level were way higher than baseline...

 

[bridgeburn]

I will add dutasteride to my regimen right after i will see my doctor, but beside it i consider to add:
- 1mg estrogel ed
- spironolactone
- oral minoxidil
- flutamide
Not sure, what is best choice for me (I remember that @bridgeburn wrote regimen for me, but i believe that with photos it will be better and easier)

you probably would need something stronger than dutasteride to get slick bald temples back... but Ill give you a fair warning about the more extreme treatments..

Since you are 20 years old, lack of androgens before age 25 will give a chance of the hip bones actually becoming wider.. after about 25 is safe from that happening because in the early 20's is when you get epilespial closure (I dont know the spelling, too lazy to google), where the bones are set for life.

Strangely enough, lack of androgens cause this and not estradiol... actually estradiol causes the the epilespial closure to happen earlier. Any trans mtf under 25 shouldn't take too high estradiol if they want a chance at wider hip bones.

- Why its much harder to reverse infertility coused by Estradiol?

well for one, estradiol is required to get into castration range testosterone, more than what just cypro can do.The HPG axis doesn't differientiate T or E and higher levels of either will directly signal less gonadal activity.. I think its kinda like with our hair, when the follicle shrinks and stays shrunk it becomes harder and harder to restart again. and there are different tolerances for this. same for shrunken testicles.

Its not good for your car either to let it sit too long without starting it.

some studies say a little estradiol can actually help sperm function, but too much dramatically impairs it.
of course thats just one way of explaining it simply. but there's multiple things going on during atrophy.

"Using MAGEA4 immunostaining we have shown that, in most patients, the only cells of spermatogenesis remaining in the tubules after estradiol treatment are spermatogonia. While estradiol has been shown to have negative impacts on the testis, it has also been shown to be a potent hormone supporting germ cell survival. This dual functionality has been highlighted in the literature20,46,47. In the patients investigated, the inhibitory effect of estradiol on spermatogenesis might be due to the estradiol induced impairment of Sertoli cell function. Impaired Sertoli cell function and disturbed communication with germ cells results in the induction of germ cell death48,49. This is supported by our results, which showed pronounced vacuolisation in the cytoplasm of the Sertoli cells after treatment with estradiol. Following the development of such vacuoles in Sertoli cells, immature germ cells are released from their bonds with Sertoli cells and prematurely transported to the epididymis50."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5206739/

- Even if i will use 1mg of Estrogel can it couse any pernament changes in my body?

likely just some permanent puffy nipples..

Can it couse that i will have to use it forever?

I doubt youd need it forever. what is required to maintain is probably lower than whats used to regrow. But if you do drop any meds, do so gradually.

If you will stop using minoxidil foam you will loose your gains. Does it works the same with oral minoxidil? Will i have to use it forever and if i will stop i will loose gains? Is there any chance to keep it, when i quit?

Thats usually how it works, at least thats what everyone says. If you just take big 3 or dutasteride then its definitely expected youll lose hair after stopping.. but I remember seeing one time a transgender timeline with hair regrowth, she reduced minoxidil gradually until using it only occasionally and still kept growing hair..

- Someone have told me that spironolactone have best risk/results ratio, do you agree?

Ive heard minoxidil counteracts the water dehydration effect of spironolactone.
minoxidil=water retention. so they balance out.. of course it would depend on the dose of each. I wouldn't call spironolactone safer though, it affects the mineralcorticoid pathway, and needs higher doses than cypro to be effective.

I would say bicalutimide is the safest anti-androgen. The effectively though depends on what you take With it..

An interesting thing i've noticed since I started this regimen is women have been smiling at me way more than before and they just seem happier to see me. Now granted part of that is because I've been in better moods lately because of my hair doing much better but I'm noticing it from girls I just pass by on the street as well. A woman the other day just told me she reallly likes the way my hair is now and told me not to change it. Thats literally the first compliment Ive had on my hair in about 4 years.

maybe cause I'm in Asia and my type of hair is unusual, I'm often asked if my hair is natural and am told its cute. There's one girl at school that said I looked like an angel, kinda like what you see in old paintings haha..

 

[bridgeburn]

Hmmm...Table 1 in this article does not make me feel good about using estradiol for regrowth...estrogen suppressing anagen phase and suppressing regrowth. I haven't read the article but hopefully beta-estradiol isn't doing this.

In mice.. Estradiol is not good for mouse fur, body hair and facial hair. human scalp hair is a little different

 

[LEXUS]

bridgeburn
I apologize if I correctly understood that the deficiency of such androgens as testosterone increases DHT and because of this wide bones grow? Could it be that the lack of testosterone increases the harmful DHT? And in this case, one blocking of DHT will not give anything? I think that I have always had low testosterone. I take 4 capsules of avodart per day and 0.5 mg of estradiol orally. Sometimes 1 mg of estradiol. Estradiol probably even improved potency, but it is different, more controlled. Could it be that in the body estradiol turns into testosterone? I have read more than once that a man’s body can work on estradiol, but not so much differently.

 

[realself]

I thought it was funny that one of the sites listing side effects of cypro had both "hair loss" and "unusual increase in hair growth" in the same exact list...Bridgeburn, how is your liver function, all good there (apologies if that was previously asked, this is quite a long thread).

 

[Stephen788]

So I’ve been on 100mg of spironolactone for 1.5 weeks now. No sexual side effects. No pain in nipples. Slight ball ache so I know it doing something and my scalp Itch has reduced but is still mildly there.
I caught up with an old mate of mine last week who I haven’t seen in like two years and was amazed at how big he is in terms of muscle his gained over the last couple of years I haven’t seen him (15kg he told me his gained ).
It got me a bit envious (he looked good, not in a gay way lol) and I literally joined a gym the other day. My brother who coincidentally is a personal trainer said he would show me the ropes which is handy. I’m probably slightly under average weight like an athletic build as I used to do 10k runs like 3 times a week in a running club.
I want to see if I can gain 7.5 kg of muscle in a year like my mate has naturally whilst taking spironolactone.
It’ll be an interesting experiment as all I seem to read about is spironolactone’s feminising effects.

 

[Ziggyz123]

I upped my spironolactone dose to 200mg. Scalp is still itchy as hell. Where did you get your spironolactone?

 

[MyThinningConfidence]

Hi, I figured this was a good question to ask you as you've looked far more into anti-androgens than I, I'm currently seeing a result on finasteride with zero side effects although it still appears that the majority of my regrowth is from microneedling still. I'm currently considering jumping up to dutasteride, likely 0.5mg weekly in conjunction with finasteride 1,25mg to cut costs, it has a long half life so it should still be effective although It seems like jumping up to dutasteride wouldn't have any expected benefits for hair but it does hold some potential. It doesn't make sense that inhbiting DHT would regrow hair despite some people regrowing loads of hair on 5AR inhibitors. I'm under the assumption that it's actually more of an accident as Inhibiting DHT synthesis may alter the estrogen to androgen ratio by shifting metabolism of testosterone to estradiol. This would explain why some people only see a slowdown of hairloss and others have major regrowth. I'm thinking in this case that if you actually want to see an increase in hairgrowth it would be best to just directly take estradiol instead of hoping for a reaction that isn't guaranteed by jumping to dutasteride. You'd still need to inhibit DHT to stop the inflammatory response but it's less of a gamble. I do know studies on dutasteride versus finasteride show that dutasteride daily is roughly 50% more effective than finasteride for regrowth on average. I also think dutasteride has a positive effect on skin and sebum production? So it might even be worth stepping up for the other benefits alone. The downsides aside from cost honestly don't seem that bad from what I've seen.

I haven't researched into estradiol that much but I wonder what would happen if you used estradiol/trans drugs to actually regrow your hair then taper off them with the end result being just using 5AR inhibitors to stop the inflammatory response. I don't think I want to play around with anything like that currently but it's just a thought. I'm also wondering if topical estradiol is at all effective.

I also know you used minoxidil at one stage, would you call that a necessity? Perhaps I'm being stubborn but I'm not currently wanting to use it as I know what I'm like and I don't think I'd be able to apply it daily since it'd lowkey drive me crazy among other issues I have with it.

I'm definitely regrowing my hair currently but it's a very slow process and I'm coming from a NW4.5 so I'm wanting to speed things along since I'm 21 and only wasting more of my youth waiting. I'm also realizing I'm perpetually hating my hair and it's always in this state of it's almost good enough but not quite until I look back on old photos and see how severely fucked it used to be. Currently I'm 8 months microneedling and 4 months finasteride so perhaps I'm being impatient.

I attached a picture of some of my vellus hairs, they are going terminal just very slowly. I have a feeling if I just add dutasteride I might not see much of an improvement and I'd just be wasting money and along with potential sides. On the other hand I feel like it could be the final thing I need for a dramatic recovery. The realistic thing to do would be just add minoxidil, but I'd feel more comfortable adding in weekly 0.5mg dutasteride than minoxidil as silly as it sounds.

 

[Marky]

you probably would need something stronger than dutasteride to get slick bald temples back... but Ill give you a fair warning about the more extreme treatments..

Since you are 20 years old, lack of androgens before age 25 will give a chance of the hip bones actually becoming wider.. after about 25 is safe from that happening because in the early 20's is when you get epilespial closure (I dont know the spelling, too lazy to google), where the bones are set for life.

Strangely enough, lack of androgens cause this and not estradiol... actually estradiol causes the the epilespial closure to happen earlier. Any trans mtf under 25 shouldn't take too high estradiol if they want a chance at wider hip bones.

well for one, estradiol is required to get into castration range testosterone, more than what just cypro can do.The HPG axis doesn't differientiate T or E and higher levels of either will directly signal less gonadal activity.. I think its kinda like with our hair, when the follicle shrinks and stays shrunk it becomes harder and harder to restart again. and there are different tolerances for this. same for shrunken testicles.

Its not good for your car either to let it sit too long without starting it.

some studies say a little estradiol can actually help sperm function, but too much dramatically impairs it.
of course thats just one way of explaining it simply. but there's multiple things going on during atrophy.

"Using MAGEA4 immunostaining we have shown that, in most patients, the only cells of spermatogenesis remaining in the tubules after estradiol treatment are spermatogonia. While estradiol has been shown to have negative impacts on the testis, it has also been shown to be a potent hormone supporting germ cell survival. This dual functionality has been highlighted in the literature20,46,47. In the patients investigated, the inhibitory effect of estradiol on spermatogenesis might be due to the estradiol induced impairment of Sertoli cell function. Impaired Sertoli cell function and disturbed communication with germ cells results in the induction of germ cell death48,49. This is supported by our results, which showed pronounced vacuolisation in the cytoplasm of the Sertoli cells after treatment with estradiol. Following the development of such vacuoles in Sertoli cells, immature germ cells are released from their bonds with Sertoli cells and prematurely transported to the epididymis50."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5206739/


likely just some permanent puffy nipples..

I doubt youd need it forever. what is required to maintain is probably lower than whats used to regrow. But if you do drop any meds, do so gradually.

Thats usually how it works, at least thats what everyone says. If you just take big 3 or dutasteride then its definitely expected youll lose hair after stopping.. but I remember seeing one time a transgender timeline with hair regrowth, she reduced minoxidil gradually until using it only occasionally and still kept growing hair..

Ive heard minoxidil counteracts the water dehydration effect of spironolactone.
minoxidil=water retention. so they balance out.. of course it would depend on the dose of each. I wouldn't call spironolactone safer though, it affects the mineralcorticoid pathway, and needs higher doses than cypro to be effective.

I would say bicalutimide is the safest anti-androgen. The effectively though depends on what you take With it..


maybe cause I'm in Asia and my type of hair is unusual, I'm often asked if my hair is natural and am told its cute. There's one girl at school that said I looked like an angel, kinda like what you see in old paintings haha..
View attachment 109856

Slaying baldness

 

[Father_of_Shiseido]

Hi, I figured this was a good question to ask you as you've looked far more into anti-androgens than I, I'm currently seeing a result on finasteride with zero side effects although it still appears that the majority of my regrowth is from microneedling still. I'm currently considering jumping up to dutasteride, likely 0.5mg weekly in conjunction with finasteride 1,25mg to cut costs, it has a long half life so it should still be effective although It seems like jumping up to dutasteride wouldn't have any expected benefits for hair but it does hold some potential. It doesn't make sense that inhbiting DHT would regrow hair despite some people regrowing loads of hair on 5AR inhibitors. I'm under the assumption that it's actually more of an accident as Inhibiting DHT synthesis may alter the estrogen to androgen ratio by shifting metabolism of testosterone to estradiol. This would explain why some people only see a slowdown of hairloss and others have major regrowth. I'm thinking in this case that if you actually want to see an increase in hairgrowth it would be best to just directly take estradiol instead of hoping for a reaction that isn't guaranteed by jumping to dutasteride. You'd still need to inhibit DHT to stop the inflammatory response but it's less of a gamble. I do know studies on dutasteride versus finasteride show that dutasteride daily is roughly 50% more effective than finasteride for regrowth on average. I also think dutasteride has a positive effect on skin and sebum production? So it might even be worth stepping up for the other benefits alone. The downsides aside from cost honestly don't seem that bad from what I've seen.

I haven't researched into estradiol that much but I wonder what would happen if you used estradiol/trans drugs to actually regrow your hair then taper off them with the end result being just using 5AR inhibitors to stop the inflammatory response. I don't think I want to play around with anything like that currently but it's just a thought. I'm also wondering if topical estradiol is at all effective.

I also know you used minoxidil at one stage, would you call that a necessity? Perhaps I'm being stubborn but I'm not currently wanting to use it as I know what I'm like and I don't think I'd be able to apply it daily since it'd lowkey drive me crazy among other issues I have with it.

I'm definitely regrowing my hair currently but it's a very slow process and I'm coming from a NW4.5 so I'm wanting to speed things along since I'm 21 and only wasting more of my youth waiting. I'm also realizing I'm perpetually hating my hair and it's always in this state of it's almost good enough but not quite until I look back on old photos and see how severely fucked it used to be. Currently I'm 8 months microneedling and 4 months finasteride so perhaps I'm being impatient.

I attached a picture of some of my vellus hairs, they are going terminal just very slowly. I have a feeling if I just add dutasteride I might not see much of an improvement and I'd just be wasting money and along with potential sides. On the other hand I feel like it could be the final thing I need for a dramatic recovery. The realistic thing to do would be just add minoxidil, but I'd feel more comfortable adding in weekly 0.5mg dutasteride than minoxidil as silly as it sounds.

Dutasteride 0.5 mg is only marginally better than finasteride 1 mg but dutasteride 2.5 mg is far more effective than finasteride 1 mg. I have experienced this to myself. However, after 2 years on dutasteride 2.5 mg it is not working anymore. You can try replacing finasteride by 0.5 mg but it is not worth in most of the cases.

 

[Stephen788]

I upped my spironolactone dose to 200mg. Scalp is still itchy as hell. Where did you get your spironolactone?

My scalp itch comes from shedding hair. If I was to stand over the sink for a few minutes and continually scratch my scalp I’d get 30-40 hairs in the sink but after that my itch will be gone. The detached hairs are just tickling my scalp especially when a breeze if added to the mix lol.
I get my spironolactone from in house. It’s the one from an island in the Australian territory. Can’t remember what the island is called though.

 

[Ziggyz123]

My scalp itch comes from shedding hair. If I was to stand over the sink for a few minutes and continually scratch my scalp I’d get 30-40 hairs in the sink but after that my itch will be gone. The detached hairs are just tickling my scalp especially when a breeze if added to the mix lol.
I get my spironolactone from in house. It’s the one from an island in the Australian territory. Can’t remember what the island is called though.

Yeah I’ve had a hairline/scalp itch for about 7 years now. Shedding or not unfortunately. But alright, yeah I got mine from Inhouse as well. I’m now doing 200mg a day to see if it has any effect at all on my hair. Goodluck with your spironolactone journey brother

 

[Obsessive]

In mice.. Estradiol is not good for mouse fur, body hair and facial hair. human scalp hair is a little different

View attachment 109857

View attachment 109858

@bridgeburn -thanks. I've seen this hair growth chart. Yes, hair grows faster with E2 but do we know how E2 effects hair follicle health? Can we infer that if hair growth speed increases, the follicle health is improving? How about a dormant follicle? Can E2 revive those?


According to the bottom pie chart...E2 is associated with both anagen and telogen phases.

 

[Stephen788]

Yeah I’ve had a hairline/scalp itch for about 7 years now. Shedding or not unfortunately. But alright, yeah I got mine from Inhouse as well. I’m now doing 200mg a day to see if it has any effect at all on my hair. Goodluck with your spironolactone journey brother

Cheers mate. I personally think the itch will go eventually. Just be patient, you see a lot of guys come and go on here. I’m pretty certain it’s because they’ve found success. Give it atleast 6 months. Just look at the OP he is now in Asia enjoying life and rarely comes on here now. That will be us in 6-12months. Maybe not in Asia though lol.

 

[bridgeburn]

progression:

 

[Ziggyz123]

View attachment 110022

progression:

View attachment 110023

View attachment 110024

Wow. Legit moved forward....

 

[Father_of_Shiseido]

View attachment 110022

progression:

View attachment 110023

View attachment 110024

Your hair line is stil very thin and looks receded.