Follica Annual Reports And Accounts April 2017

pegasus2

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Fair enough, but


"Based on our recent research results, we finally have some prospects and expect this issue to be resolved in the near future."


Kyocera is obviously confident that they will overcome all challenges, or they wouldn't be investing in it. They have a lot more information than we do about where things sit.
 

nameless

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Fair enough, but


"Based on our recent research results, we finally have some prospects and expect this issue to be resolved in the near future."


Kyocera is obviously confident that they will overcome all challenges, or they wouldn't be investing in it. They have a lot more information than we do about where things sit.

There's a BIG difference between "expect this issue to be resolved" and "this issue IS resolved". When they say "this issue is resolved" I'll be popping the champagne corks with you but until they say that it's all just expectation.

And Kyocera can be confident all they want but their confidence isn't going to solve a big complicated problem like the inductivity problem. I'm waiting to hear Tsuji say they've solved the problem. This is a very big problem. The entire hair loss research world is trying to solve this problem and they've been trying to solve this problem for quite some time.
 

pegasus2

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There's a BIG difference between "expect this issue to be resolved" and "this issue IS resolved". When they say "this issue is resolved" I'll be popping the champagne corks with you but until they say that it's all just expectation.

And Kyocera can be confident all they want but their confidence isn't going to solve a big complicated problem like the inductivity problem. I'm waiting to hear Tsuji say they've solved the problem. This is a very big problem. The entire hair loss research world is trying to solve this problem and they've been trying to solve this problem for quite some time.
So if Tsuji fails, the Germans will cure us. Their method doesn't have that problem.
 

coolio

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Since the first issue you raised involves my concerns about the depth of Follica's laser I'll start with that issue. I assumed that depth may be a problem with the laser but it may be the actual burning from the laser that's the problem, or perhaps there's something else about using the laser that's potentially dangerous. I assume the issue is depth. In any case, there's something about the laser that could result in damage to the skin and even cause scarring. Follica itself says so. If you don't believe me check out this information from Follica:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/news/new-research/follica-presents-at-the-aad-2017-annual-meeting/

The key quote are here in italics:

"The procedure still involves a dermatologist visit where careful “wounding” of the scalp will occur likely with a medical device, in the areas you wish to treat. They are working to ensure that the device does not create scar tissue or incur any permanent damage, as this would of course nullify the entire treatment. He would not confirm whether existing hair would be damaged but said that they are trying to find the best modality so this could be avoided. He did state that multiple office treatments may be required, but he could not commit nor confirm this, and they are hoping it won’t be a lifetime process but again no confirmation on that either."

Their own statements show that they're still unsure this can be done safely. I highlighted one statement (above) to demonstrate that Follica understands that safety issues may prevent this treatment from coming to market at all. One of the quotes states that patients might need multiple office visits with the doctor so the treatment could involve multiple clinic wounding sessions, which means more chances for problems.

I understand that some people doing derma-rolling get "random" hair growth but Follica does not want to achieve "random" hair growth. Follica wants to achieve good and uniform hair growth that's aesthetically pleasing. I'm assuming that in order to achieve this they have to laser deeper (or do something) that's potentially risky or else they wouldn't state that scarring and/or permanent damage to the skin is a potential risk.

Bottom line: it looks like they want to burn the skin in such a way that it will create uniform hair growth where they apply their laser and something about doing this involves some potential risks. Until they resolve these risk issues I'm going to assume they can't resolve them because it seems like a problem that just can't be solved today. Some problems are just scientifically impossible to solve today. For example, science can't turn north into south no matter what you do.

Perhaps 20 years from now there will be a way to get the desired effects of burning skin (as needed for Follica's treatment to work) without getting the undesired effects of burning the skin in that manner, but I don't think there's a way to accomplish both of those things today.
Hence, I'm highly skeptical that Follica will be able to achieve its' objectives in the near future. I think I have a valid point. And the bottom line is that Follica itself says they're concerned about this issue and that this issue could prevent their treatment from entering the marketplace.

And I assume that there's something about Follica's treatment that's different from dermabrasion or else they would just use dermabrasion since doctors already know how to do dermabrasion. Follica themselves say they still have to work out the details of their wounding process so doesn't that mean it can't be dermabrasion since the details of dermabrasion are already worked out?

And keep in mind that *if* the risk is associated with getting the laser to the required depth to prompt good hair growth without doing serious harm to the skin that will complicate matters because the depth of each individual's skin is different, including different depths for each layer of the skin. What if the laser has to hit an exact layer without going past it? There may be the tinniest depth window that must be reached in order to accomplish what they're trying to do, and that window may be at a different depth for each individual. If it gets this complicated I don't think the science is there yet to accomplish this.

And then there are the issues that some people are saying that it's nothing more than minoxidil and wounding. And there are issues of whether or not their treatment can be patented and if it cant be patented they might not release it. And there's also the issue that they might not release it if it can easily be made into DIY.

I feel very pessimistic about Follica. I'm not saying it's a certainty that it's junk. I'm just saying that I don't feel positive about it.

Everything back in Follica's formative years suggested they only needed a dermabrasion-level wound. In fact I don't think anything else is possible because that goes right down to the ragged edge of bleeding & scarring. There isn't any deeper level to hit before you have gone definitely too far.

I think Follica's "novel wounding method" is, along with the patenting issue, probably an attempt to get around the problem of wrecking people's existing hair. (I mean cosmetically wrecking their hair shafts sticking out, not medically damaging the follicles under the skin.) Their novel method probably aims to avoid hurting people's existing hair or at least reduces the damage.



Everyone reads about Follica's plan for the first time and has the same set of thoughts. People focus all their attention on the wounding issue. "Oh my God they're gonna scalp us!! Okay, I have calmed down. But now I wanna know how deep, how bad, how can they even do this safely, this is gonna wreck our existing follicles, etc." I have seen this thinking process playing out on the balding forums for years, over and over again. Long after the initial revulsion to the idea has worn off, people still remain preoccupied with the wounding issue as they learn about Follica's research.

Follica's actual research (not product development) didn't make it sound like this at all. They were messing with dermabrasion. They basically figured out that superficial wounding kicked the skin into releasing a series of growth factors & generally causing conditions that would allow follicle creation/rehab.

They didn't devote a great big amount of time & resources to the intricacies of wounding at the early stages of the process when they were figuring out how to grow hair. They were never trying to create hair by getting a new scalp skin to grow. They did not start by doing big messy bleeding wounds and then working backwards to find a way to produce results with less severity. No. They figured out that the existing dermabrasion-type wounding processes were adequate to do that part of the job, and then they largely moved on from the wounding. They got focused on what was chemically helpful to follicle formation. The intricacies of the wounding didn't show up as a big part of their RESEARCH after that, only the development of the PRODUCT.


Dermabrasion, chemical burning, lasering . . it's all different means to the same end.


The past cellular multiplication outfits like Aderans & Intercytex all discovered that "scalp stimulation" (dermabrasion) boosted their results. Between the abrasions, and the repeated sessions of needle injections all over the growth area (which is not unlike dermarolling), IMO the wounding was probably responsible for most of the results those outfits ever produced in clinical trials.
 

coolio

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It is not certain that the follica method is valid. People like a casperZ used the dermaroller for 4 years and had no result. The theory of injury is to review
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/new-dermaroller-study-thoughts-comments.69374/page-140


Dermarolling isn't dermabrasion/etc. It can cause wounding gains but it's a couple steps less effective & reliable. Follica's early research concluded that an abraded area should be a minimum area of a couple millimeters across to kick enough bodily processes into gear.

And then there is the whole drug thing. We don't know what drugs they are using no matter how much we guess. We do know they have studied multiple different natural chemicals/processes to manipulate. And they've looked at lot at varying timeframes & orders of things (plucking hairs 3 days before the wounding increased early results, etc.)
 

Nadia1972

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Dermarolling isn't dermabrasion/etc. It can cause wounding gains but it's a couple steps less effective & reliable. Follica's early research concluded that an abraded area should be a minimum area of a couple millimeters across to kick enough bodily processes into gear.

And then there is the whole drug thing. We don't know what drugs they are using no matter how much we guess. We do know they have studied multiple different natural chemicals/processes to manipulate. And they've looked at lot at varying timeframes & orders of things (plucking hairs 3 days before the wounding increased early results, etc.)
I have been practicing dermabrasion for several months. I have noticed anything special
Especially as I scar very very bad so I certainly risk getting scars on my scalp which would be very annoying
In addition the risk of infection is not negligible
Follica adds medication. I did not know. I'm on page 140. I'll read up to 250 pages to get an idea .On page 140, nothing happens
 

kiwipilu

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I use dermaroller for months (1mm) once a week, I noticed hair thickening. About regrowth in my case? I doubt, but I was already using minoxidil. I don't want to use the 1.5 anymore, it's obviously deeper and makes your scalp bloody and that's not the goal.
conclusion: I think there is no doubt dermaroller brings something to a routine, but you clearly needs to be meticulous +keep the equipment 100%clean + clean scalp.
So to me if dermaroller is worth it, follica should b definitely worth it because it's better than dermarolling.
 

Nadia1972

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On the Indian study, I wonder if it is not the minoxidil that gave regrowth.There is doubt in any case
Seeing the results too small, there is no reason to jump for joy But I understand that some people prefer it rather than do nothing
 

SamFT

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I think one thing that many people are so confused and curious about is that they are using a "range of compounds" the reason I believe that dermarolling isn't very effective for us is because the body is trying to heal the damaged skin not regrow hair. Follica probably has a select few inhibitors for certain growth factors and biological processes to focus on the growth of hair and stop the focus of repairing the skin. But man if minoxidil is really part of the treatment that would suck. I really hope swoop is wrong
 

Nadia1972

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According to squeegee, if you dig deep with dermabrasion and dermaroller you could reach the stem cells.He used acid and dermaroller.I have 100 pages to see if he has had results
 

pegasus2

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I use dermaroller for months (1mm) once a week, I noticed hair thickening. About regrowth in my case? I doubt, but I was already using minoxidil. I don't want to use the 1.5 anymore, it's obviously deeper and makes your scalp bloody and that's not the goal.
conclusion: I think there is no doubt dermaroller brings something to a routine, but you clearly needs to be meticulous +keep the equipment 100%clean + clean scalp.
So to me if dermaroller is worth it, follica should b definitely worth it because it's better than dermarolling.

1.5mm really makes your scalp bloody? How long do you do it for, and how vigorously? I use 1.5mm, and I just get erythema with no bleeding.
 

thomps1523

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1.5mm really makes your scalp bloody? How long do you do it for, and how vigorously? I use 1.5mm, and I just get erythema with no bleeding.

I used 1.5mm, and I pressed hard going back and forth, and had blood dripping down my forehead from rolling my temples... hurts, but unless you press hard and go back and forth all you'll get is erythrma.
 

nameless

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I opened your link and read about tissuse. It has the same problem that Tsuji has, and Replicel has, and Aderans had, and Intercytex had.

Tissuse is another company that must culture hair cell in order to make enough of them to produce hair growth. And culturing is what kills hair inductivity in the cells. Unless tissuse has a solution to the inductivity problem their cultured cells will lose indictivity during the culture process just like culturing cells results in the loss of hair inductivity for other cell based treatments. And this loss of inductivity will prevent tissuse from growing a good amount of hair the same as it's preventing other cell-based therapies from growing a good amount of hair. Here in highlights is the key quote from the tissuse site where they state that they're harvesting cells and culturing cells.

"By isolating cells from the dermal papilla, the root of the hair follicle, it is possible to expand and culture those cells to form neopapillae."

Sure they can culture the cells but when they culture the cells hair inductivity will be lost. And when hair inductivity is lost the cells won't grow hair. Tissuse doesn't get a pass on the inductivity problem pegasus2. None of the cell-based hair research groups get a pass on this problem. The only solution is to invent a solution to the inductivity problem or else they will fail like every other cell-based hair research groups has failed.
 
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kiwipilu

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1.5mm really makes your scalp bloody? How long do you do it for, and how vigorously? I use 1.5mm, and I just get erythema with no bleeding.

Unlike thomps1523 I have never had blood dripping(with 1.5 or 1.0). I'm far from some people here who have/had (pool of) blood all over the head (we remember the topic which has been closed). so in my case bloody sounds maybe exaggerated but with 1.5 I had more drops of blood spots and it obv "hurt" more. I still have some blood spots with the 1.00 but that's really marginal. I don't time the sessions, I just roll between 5-10 times in all 4 directions. I don't press hard I, just make sure whole thinning area look red(the erythema we are talking about).
 
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