Follica - Good News!

bugbug

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I would add tannic acid, quercetin, genistein and luteolin to your experiements.

http://jb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/139/3/495

Tannic Acid, a Potent Inhibitor of Epidermal Growth Factor Receptor Tyrosine Kinase
Er Bin Yang1,*, Liu Wei2, Kai Zhang3, Yu Zong Chen2 and Wei Ning Chen1
1 Hepatitis Viruses and Liver Cancer Research Laboratory, School of Chemical and Biomedical Engineering, Nanyang Technological University, 19 Nanyang Drive, Singapore 637551; 2 Department of Computational Science, National University of Singapore, 10 Kent Ridge Crescent, Singapore 119260; and 3 Department of Experimental Surgery, Singapore General Hospital, Outram Road, Singapore 169608

Increasing evidence supports the hypothesis that tannic acid, a plant polyphenol, exerts anticarcinogenic activity in chemically induced cancers. In the present study, tannic acid was found to strongly inhibit tyrosine kinase activity of epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFr) in vitro (IC50 = 323 nM). In contrast, the inhibition by tannic acid of p60c-src tyrosine kinase (IC50 = 14 µM) and insulin receptor tyrosine kinase (IC50 = 5 µM) was much weaker. The inhibition of EGFr tyrosine kinase by tannic acid was competitive with respect to ATP and non-competitive with respect to peptide substrate. In cultured cells, growth factor–induced tyrosine phosphorylation of growth factor receptors, including EGFr, platelet-derived growth factor receptor, and basic fibroblast growth factor receptor, was inhibited by tannic acid. No inhibition of insulin-induced tyrosine phosphorylation of insulin receptor and insulin-receptor substrate-1 was observed. EGF-stimulated growth of HepG2 cells was inhibited in the presence of tannic acid. The inhibition of serine/threonine-specific protein kinases, including cAMP-dependent protein kinase, protein kinase C and mitogen-activated protein kinase, by tannic acid was only detected at relatively high concentration, IC50 being 3, 325 and 142 µM respectively. The molecular modeling study suggested that tannic acid could be docked into the ATP binding pockets of either EGFr or insulin receptor. These results demonstrate that tannic acid is an in vitro potent inhibitor of EGFr tyrosine kinase.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=53264ec065d7f005e86df86789c2ee60
Genistein, a Tyrosine Kinase Inhibitor, Reduces EGF-Induced EGF Receptor Internalization and Degradation in Human Hepatoma HepG2 Cells

Er-Bin Yangb, a, Dong-Fang Wanga, Peter Mackb and Li-Yao Cheng a, 1
a Department of Biochemistry, National University of Singapore, 10 Kent Ridge Crescent, Singapore, 119260
b Department of Surgery, Singapore General Hospital, Outram Road, Singapore, 169068

Abstract
In this work, using the ECL Western blotting assay system, it was found that genistein, a specific tyrosine kinase inhibitor, was able to inhibit EGF-induced EGF receptor degradation and tyrosine phosphorylation in human hepatoma HepG2 cells. This inhibition was increased with increasing genistein concentration. With treatment of HepG2 cells with genistein at 37 °C for 30 min, the amount of internalized EGF, which was measured by the detection of the sorting of125I-EGF in the cells, was remarkably decreased. Under the same conditions, in cells untreated with genistein, the degradation of EGF was significantly increased. After preincubation of HepG2 cells with and without genistein for 120 min at 37 °C, the ratio between degraded and released EGF was 16 and 24, respectively. These results suggest that EGF-induced internalization and degradation of EGF-EGF receptor complexes in HepG2 cells depend on EGF receptor tyrosine kinase activity.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12168845
Anticancer Res. 2002 May-Jun;22(3):1615-27.Links
Blockade of the epidermal growth factor receptor tyrosine kinase activity by quercetin and luteolin leads to growth inhibition and apoptosis of pancreatic tumor cells.

Lee LT, Huang YT, Hwang JJ, Lee PP, Ke FC, Nair MP, Kanadaswam C, Lee MT.
Institute of Biological Chemistry Academia Sinica, Taipei, Taiwan.

To glean insights into the mechanism of their action, we assessed the effects of two flavonoids, quercetin (Qu) and luteolin (Lu), on the growth and epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) tyrosine kinase activity of MiaPaCa-2 cancer cells. Exposure of these EGFR-expressing cells to 20 microM Qu or Lu resulted in concomitant decreases in cellular protein phosphorylation and growth. On the cellular level, Qu and Lu sensitivity correlated with EGFR levels and rapid cell proliferation, indicating the possibility of targeting those cells most prone to neoplastic progression. Cell treatment with the flavonoids markedly diminished the extent of cellular protein phosphorylation, by effectively modulating protein tyrosine kinase (PTK) activities, including that of EGFR. Immunocomplex kinase assay revealed that both Qu and Lu inhibited the PTK activities responsible for the autophosphorylation of EGFR as well as for the transphosphorylation of enolase. Treatment of the cells with Qu or Lu also reduced the phosphotyrosyl levels of 170-, 125-, 110-, 65-, 60-, 44-, 30- and 25-kDa proteins. We identified the 170-kDa phosphotyrosylprotein as EGFR. Qu and Lu exhibited a specific action in hampering the levels of phosphorylation of this and the aforementioned proteins, while having no discernible effect on their synthesis. A time-dependent attenuation of the phosphorylation of the above proteins was demonstrable. Treatment of the cells with Qu or Lu for 6 hours showed little inhibition, but prolonging the cell treatment for 24 hours caused the suppression of phosphorylation. Further continuation of the cell treatment culminated in the induction of apoptosis, characteristically exhibiting shrinkage of the cell morphology, DNA fragmentation and poly(ADP-ribose)polymerase (PARP) degradation. The onset of apoptosis and associated events occurred in a time-dependent fashion. The data clearly demonstrate that MiaPaCa-2 cells respond to Qu and Lu by a parallel reduction in cellular protein phosphorylation and cellular proliferation. The flavonoid-evoked attenuation of the phosphorylation of EFGR and of other proteins appeared to be transient, since removal of the flavonoid from the cell growth medium after 24 hours of incubation followed by exposure to 10 nm EGF, restored protein phosphorylation and cellular proliferation. Such an addition of EGF was also able to reverse Qu- or Lu-induced cell growth inhibition and diminish nuclear digestion evoked by 20 microM Qu or Lu. Both Qu and Lu were able to reverse the effect of EGF biochemically as well as functionally. Based on the evidence accrued, the above proteins could be implicated in growth signal transduction and the subtle changes in their phosphorylation, as effected by flavonoids, utilized as a reliable guide to predict growth response. The antiproliferative effect of flavonoids might result, at least in part, from the modulation of the EGF-mediated signaling pathway. The results indicate that the blockade of the EGFR-signaling pathway by the PTK inhibitors Qu and Lu significantly inhibits the growth of MiaPaCa-2 cells and induces apoptosis. The modulation of EGFR kinase appears to be a critically important, intrinsic component of Qu- and Lu-induced growth suppression, even though other mechanisms could also have contributed to the net effect.

http://www.nature.com/bjp/journal/v128/n5/full/0702879a.html

British Journal of Pharmacology (1999) 128, 999–1010; doi:10.1038/sj.bjp.0702879

Effects of luteolin and quercetin, inhibitors of tyrosine kinase, on cell growth and metastasis-associated properties in A431 cells overexpressing epidermal growth factor receptor
Y -T Huang1, J -J Hwang2, P -P Lee3, F -C Ke4, J -H Huang1, C -J Huang1, C Kandaswami5, E Middleton Jr5 and M -T Lee1

1Institute of Biological Chemistry, Academia Sinica, Taipei, Taiwan
2Institute of Physiology, National Yang Ming University, Taipei, Taiwan
3Department of Pharmacology and Therapeutics, Roswell Park Cancer Institute, Buffalo, NY 14263, U.S.A.
4Department of Zoology, National Taiwan University, Taipei, Taiwan
5Department of Medicine, State University of New York at Buffalo, NY 14263, U.S.A.
Correspondence: M -T Lee, Institute of Biological Chemistry, Academia Sinica, Taipei, Taiwan

Abstract
Flavonoids display a wide range of pharmacological properties including anti-inflammatory. Anti-mutagenic, anti-carcinogenic and anti-cancer effects. Here, we evaluated the effects of eight flavonoids on the tumour cell proliferation, cellular protein phosphorylation, and matrix metalloproteinase (MMPs) secretion.
Of the flavonoids examined, luteolin (Lu) and quercetin (Qu) were the two most potent agents, and significantly inhibited A431 cell proliferation with IC50 values of 19 and 21 M, respectively.
The epidermal growth factor (EGF) (10 nM) promoted growth of A431 cells (+254.6%) and mediated epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) tyrosine kinase activity and autophosphorylation of EGFR were inhibited by Lu and Qu. At concentration of 20 M, both Lu and Qu markedly decreased the levels of phosphorylation of A431 cellular proteins, including EGFR.
A431 cells treated with Lu or Qu exhibited protuberant cytoplasmic blebs and progressive shrinkage morphology. Lu and Qu also time-dependently induced the appearance of a ladder pattern of DNA fragmentation, and this effect was abolished by EGF treatment.
The addition of EGF only marginally diminished the inhibitory effect of luteolin and quercetin on the growth rate of A431 cells, treatment of cellular proteins with EGF and luteolin or quercetin greatly reduced protein phosphorylation, indicating Lu and Qu may act effectively to inhibit a wide range of protein kinases, including EGFR tyrosine kinase.
EGF increased the levels of matrix metalloproteinase-2 (MMP-2) and matrix metalloproteinase-9 (MMP-9), while Lu and Qu appeared to suppress the secretion of these two MMPs in A431 cells.
Examination of the relationship between the chemical structure and inhibitory effects of eight flavonoids reveal that the double bond between C2 and C3 in ring C and the OH groups on C3' and C4' in ring B are critical for the biological activities.
This study demonstrates that the inhibitory effects of Lu and Qu, and the stimulatory effects of EGF, on tumour cell proliferation, cellular protein phosphorylation, and MMP secretion may be mediated at least partly through EGFR. This study supports the idea that Lu and Qu may have potential as anti-cancer and anti-metastasis agents.


These are just a few of many published studies
bug
 

first

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bugbug said:
I would add tannic acid, quercetin, genistein and luteolin to your experiements.
Tannic acid is a polyphenol, making me think it could have similar properties to the other polyphenol we know, ECGC in green tea.

However, at this point there is no reason to change the current routine. As ECGC and PCI (which jakeb uses) are actually some of the more effective EGF inhibitors and both are common and cheap.

If it doesn't work however, or has too harsh side effects, something more exotic has to be considered. If you were willing to try any of these yourself bug, that would be great, as then we have another chemical covered.
 

Orin

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First - you're correct about my "needle-comb", and I admit it's sub-par at best. What we really need is a dermabrasion tool that does things evenly, and without damaging the hair.

A dermabrasion acid *is* really ideal here (apart from maybe a laser, but that's out of the question) and we have two contestants really.

TCA peels
-------------------------
pro: good, cheap, readily available. Seems to straddle the balance between damaging the skin enough to require atleast a week until full recovery, without leaving permanent marks. Can be used multiple times and comes in various strenghts.

con: May be detrimental to already existing hair, bleaching it, making it thinner, or at worst removing it along with the skin, which would make it useless. It's possible it does not go deep enough to kick-start regenerative capabilities in the skin.


phenol peel
-------------------------
pro: already been used in one study that showed its deep dermabrasion showed quote "excellent results" on an average of 3 applications (though the study was for a different kind of alopecia, and not male pattern baldness). Does not seem to react to the hair, as far as I have glimpsed. Its existence in several hair-care products seem to further suggest this.

con: conflicting reports say that it can be used either several times (as the alopecia study seem to suggest), or just once. This is because it dermabrades deeply, and could leave the skin thin. Could go deeper than what we need. Phenol is toxic to skin pigmentation, leaving the treated area permanently lighter, and is therefor not usable for people of darker skin. The treated skin also apparently (in many cases) loses its ability to get tanned, and may become overly sensitive to light. While your hair covers your scalp, these are not good things.
Phenol can also only be used in small quantities at a time, and could raise your heat-rate. Anaesthesia may be needed because of pain during dermabrasion.

So there doesn't seem to be any optimal acid of use; no ideal combination of the two. It really hinges on TCA:s effect on hair. If it does not react to hair in any way, then we're clear. I've googled around but found nothing supporting it either way.

Acid would really be ideal as you can easily configure your level of dermabrasion with amount of acid, and time of exposure. Furthermore, as the phenol study seem to suggest (and male pattern baldness-people may be excluded from this) that just dermabrading will net you good results on the average third time around. Throw in some WnT-signaling and other good stuff (perhaps also pre-stimulation) and you'd have a pretty good method.

If one can use TCA peels, then you could theoretically do it every other month. After a year, I think most people would see some good results.
Using an acid would be incredibly convenient for continious treatments. Mechanical dermabrasion, like with my needle-comb, is as I've said before, a very time-consuming activity that doesn't dermabrate evenly. Too easy to go too deep, or not deep enough, and the actual wound-area may not be as uniform as with an acid.

Does anyone know anything about how TCA react to hair? If it were just a question of dermabrasion strenght then you could use a watered down phenol-solution, but unfortunately its pigment-killing and general toxicity does not go away with a lower dose.
 

first

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Well, a very good start is to further examine the acids mentioned in the follica patent.

Those are phenol, trichloracetic acid (TCA, as you mentioned, commonly known for removing tatoos) and ascorbic acid (basically Vitamin C).
 

bugbug

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I was trying to find a source for tannic acid and as it turns out it is also called gallotannic acid which happens to be in green tea. So green tea could end up being better than EGCG alone.

bug
 

jakeb

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I did a TCA test on my hair. It definitely felt burny. It didn't bleach my hair or make it fall out. If it thinned it, it wasn't noticible.

The phases were:

Day 1: burny
Day 2-5 very tight feeling
Day 6-11 dandruff like crazy (this is the skin peeling off)
 

michael barry

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I took a gander at some of the posts in this thread........................


Its interesting that some of you guys are going to try the wounding-hair-growth method out for yourselves, and I wish you all good luck. I HOPE that you guys will try and follow the Follica (and now Intercytex as they are dermabrading the subjects pre-cellular injections in their protocol and have found they get better growth in the last cohort of their current phase two trial-----probably a direct rip off of Follica, but whatever) patent AS CLOSELY AS YOU CAN.



If I was gonna do it, here is what I'd do.


Id try to obtain Arava, or Getifitinib, or any of the other NON-NATURALLY OCCURING egf-inhibitors that they mention in the patent and take them ORALLY. The patent explicity states that the EGF-inhibitor needed to be "non-naturally occuring". This could in fact be a "smokescreen" by them because they know these drugs are expensive as a way of dissuading anyone from trying this at home, but there really might be some kind of reason a synthetic substance is used here. The body would probably have less of a chance counteracting a synthetic chemical and having the skin regrow in response to a wound as it is a manufactured non-natural chemcal. If I was going to go through the hassle, I think I'd do it their way first at least once.


I think Id try to take the drugs orally and not topically. Formulating topicals isn't easy stuff, and the patent states they can be taken orally, so in fear of using a carrier or too much of a carrier that would muck up the delicate cellular signalling processes taking place........................I think I'd play it conservitavely again and just pop the pills (Its only gonna be for about 10 days).


Here is what I'd do specifically:

Day one----depilate or pluck the area to be treated. I think I'd use nair or something to even pull out the vellus hairs. This will get all the hairs in anagen at the correct time.
Day four----Three days later, just like it says in the patent, I'd dermabrade via sandpaper. Remove the stratum cornelium. Skin should be pink and shiny and it will hurt some (you might wanna take an aspirin and a few beers before you do this). Make sure the scalp is very clean from a recent shampooing of it. Id go ahead and get on the anti-andogens at this time. Wanting as little anti-androgenic stimulation as possible, I think I'd do both dutasteride and flutamide (yes, you will feel lazy and not have much of a sex drive). If you dont have the money for the flutamide, I'd pop some good quality saw palmetto oil tablets twice a day. About 400 mgs each time................as to lessen receptor binding. Flutamide would be better.
Day seven or eight.................start taking the EGF-inhibitor, loniten (internal minoxidil), and an over-the-counter anti-histamine
Day 16-----this is twelve days post wounding...................and you could probably drop the drugs at this time. You might stay on dutasteride for another week or so, and then go back to finasteride. I'd wait until two full weeks post wounding at least until I'd go back to any topicals, so if you are going to be on a topical anti-androgen like fluridil or revivogen or soy isoflavones or whatever............................I think I'd wait until then, and maybe a month before anything like that on the scalp.



Most important note............................I really really really think Id refrain from washing the hair after Day four (wounding day). Shampoos have detergents and chemicals in them, and who knows if they would interfere with this process. No washing of the animals (or human) skin grafted onto the animals took place in any of the experiments. Hair can be cleaned by leaning over your bed and taking a cloth (or towel) and clasping the hair (taking care to not touch the scalp) and pulling the hair through the clasped clean towel or cloth, removing sebum. It wont look great for a couple of weeks----but you can kinda stay around the house and wear a hat if you have to go out much. Areas that weren't treated could be shampooed. I really wouldn't advise even getting the abraded area wet (chlorine and other chemicals in water) as the experimental animals weren't put in water or anything either. I'd want to replicate as CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE EXACTLY what was done in the experiments. About 14 days post wounding...................one might return to regular shampooing.


Thats how I would do it. I know it seems like a ridiculous hassle, but until they tell us more.............if you are gonna bother with it, why take a chance on adding any chemical to your wounded scalp surface that might chemically disrupt the epidermal cells from doing their thing and sending them the incorrect signals. I know no disinfectant is to be applied to the wound because it says so in the patent. At day 14 or so (2 good weeks).................whatever needed to happen up there probably had happened.........and shampooing again should be cool.
 

harold

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bugbug said:
I was trying to find a source for tannic acid and as it turns out it is also called gallotannic acid which happens to be in green tea. So green tea could end up being better than EGCG alone.

bug

The other compunds of green tea where found to be far less effective than EGCG at inhibiting the EGFR. I really cant stress enough how comparatively impressive EGCG appeared to be in that study.
Also from Wikipedia "Tea "tannins" are chemically distinct from other types of plant tannins such as tannic acid[5] and tea extracts have been reported to contain no tannic acid[6]." The term tannic acid appears to be somewhat ambiguously used.
hh
 

first

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michael barry said:
....if you are gonna bother with it, why take a chance on adding any chemical to your wounded scalp surface that might chemically disrupt the epidermal cells from doing their thing and sending them the incorrect signals. I know no disinfectant is to be applied to the wound because it says so in the patent. At day 14 or so (2 good weeks).................whatever needed to happen up there probably had happened.........and shampooing again should be cool.
Well, for a very small scale test at least not I am ready to change my entire life. The reason for people not to use getifitinib is because it is extremely expensive. I think it is actually better if people try without it first, so we get an idea of if it works with natural EGF inhibitors.
 

Orin

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I agree; as of now, it could prove very fruitful to see what non-synthetic chemicals can do. Mostly because they're dirt-cheap as opposed to synthetics, but also because we don't know exacly why Follica stresses the use of synthetics. It is entirely possible (especially considering the simplicity of the overal method) that they're trying to cling on to whatever they can secure as "theirs".

You can't patent non-synthetic compounds. If you strip it down, from Follica's point, there is *very* little they can be territorial about. And that is something we need to consider. Purchasing gefitnib is really a moot point, as it is so prohibitively expensive.
 

bugbug

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Harold that 2006 study from the Journal of Biochemistry that I posted stated that tannic acid had an IC50 of 323 nanomoles or .323 micromoles. Thats pretty potent.

bug
 

jakeb

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Watch out with the Arava... the side effects do not sound pleasant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leflunomide#Side-Effects

"The side-effects of Arava affect quite a number of organ systems, are frequent and at times severe or even fatal... toxic epidermal necrolysis, heart problems, alopecia (17%), CNS troubles etc."

Alopecia is one of the side effects? Wtf. Considering my luck with finasteride "frequent" "severe" and "fatal" are not words I like to see.
 

joemadrid

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jakeb said:
Watch out with the Arava... the side effects do not sound pleasant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leflunomide#Side-Effects

"The side-effects of Arava affect quite a number of organ systems, are frequent and at times severe or even fatal... toxic epidermal necrolysis, heart problems, alopecia (17%), CNS troubles etc."

Alopecia is one of the side effects? Wtf. Considering my luck with finasteride "frequent" "severe" and "fatal" are not words I like to see.

Do not worry, we only are going to take the drug for a few days, just to trick our body not to cure the damage skin and foolish it to make hair or repair our damaged hair follicles.

I want to note that the manual says that the first 3 dosages need to be 100mg/day, and later 10 mg/day or 20/mg day, but manual is obviously written for other diseases, so I do not know what to do.
 

harold

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bugbug said:
Harold that 2006 study from the Journal of Biochemistry that I posted stated that tannic acid had an IC50 of 323 nanomoles or .323 micromoles. Thats pretty potent.

bug

OK true that is pretty potent and comparable to the IC50 of EGCG. I'm still a little unclear as to where to obtain tannic acid and what plants it is present in and in what quantities. I would be interested to see the source used in that study.
hh
 

saviomilbratz

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Could anyone resume it to me and tell me what Follica is?!
 

saviomilbratz

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Any idea of when it's going to be available?!!
is it a procedure or a medication?!
 

Orin

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Would any of you with different kinds of peeling acids (TCA and such) mind putting a few hairs in the solution and just report back what happens after long exposure?

Ordering any kind of acid will take some time for me, and might be expensive, so I'd like to know. Besides, it's for everyones benefit really. Better yet, if you could treat an area like down along the side-burn area, or at the back of the neck, and see what it does to the hair and skin, that's be great too. You can easily hide these areas should anything go wrong.

As far as I know, TCA acid (or perhaps most dermabrasion acids; I know phenol behaves this way) turns foamy white after sufficient exposure to the skin. It would be interesting to see if it does this when in contact with hair. Don't know much about acids, I'm afraid. It seems TCA would otherwise be ideal for monthly scalp-peels.

Oh and please make a note concerning the strenght of the solution. I've seen you can order up to 40% concentrations. It should probably do the trick insofar as damaging the skin sufficiently.

Would be of great help - I'm pretty anxious to just get started on a larger scale. If studies and what we've been told in a round-about-way are correct (and they should.. they *are*, really) , scalp dermabrasion alone gives some regrowth and perhaps more importantly, seem to lure sleeping hair back into their active phase.
So even if the whole WnT/EGFR-inhibition deal falls out, we still have that. And that's atleast documented to work in humans.

Also - it seems you can buy more or less pure EGCG as a fairly inexpensive dietary suppliment. Wouldn't this suffice, as opposed to using tannic acid? Seems the EGCG-extracts are usually high in polyphenol also. I'm thinking of picking it up, instead of a bottle of lithium chloride. Considering the patent for a follica "kit" didn't even mention WnT, I'm suspecting it's not as important as proper EGFR-inhibition. Don't know how well it absorbs though.. I think, and I'm just speculating, that we'd get better results if we can cut out as much disinfectant material as possible.
The best areas of regrowth I had from dermabrasion, were two areas that got slightly infected.


EDIT: Found a link to an outlet with very high EGCG:

http://www.naturalgreens.com/ProdDetail ... 0__Teavigo

Somewhat expensive I guess, 66 dollars for 120 pills. If anyone else has a source, feel free to chip in.

EDIT2: When I googled around I found an abstract that basically said (in the context of the paper) that EGCG shows a strong inhibitory effect on cancer cells but "not their normal counterparts". I don't know what it means. Perhaps someone more knowledgable can figure it out, but it sounds like it only works as a normalizer for cancer-cells or something? So perhaps it doesn't work in the way we want.

Here is a link, I haven't found the full rapport.

http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index. ... row=375230
 
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