HMI-115 PRLR antibody: The Most Promising Treatment Ever

[Kagaho]

Anti-androgens work for a long time for the majority of people, but eventually they stop working. Age is a factor in this. The older you are the more susceptible you are to hair loss.

Kinda offtopic, but I have to say I disagree. While its well established that DHT sensitivity increase with age, I have yet to see one study showing antiandrogens or ARIs stop working. AFAIK, all long term studies done on ARIs point to a marked stabilization of hairloss.

Maybe they cant keep hair at baseline levels forever but a massive change on a statistically significant population wasnt observed.

I still think we should always attack from different angles, stacking ARIs with topical AAs being the most obvious choice.

 

[pegasus2]

Kinda offtopic, but I have to say I disagree. While its well established that sensitivity increase with age, I have yet to see one study showing they stop working. Long term studies done on ARIs points to a marked stabilization of hairloss.

Maybe they cant keep hair at baseline levels at some point but a massive change on a statistically significant population wasnt observed.

I still think we should always attack from different angles, stacking ARIs with topical AA being the most obvious choice.

I'm not aware of any study over 10 years. There is nothing to go by but anecdotes. We can assume most celebrities are on dutasteride or finasteride, yet almost all of them end up with some level of hair loss. Even Tom Cruise has lost hair. There are many forum members who have claimed finasteride worked for a decade before they started receding again. It's just anecdotal yes, but it does align with the studies that do show a reduced response over time. The number of people who maintain after one year in finasteride is near 100%. After 5 years that drops to under 80%.

 

[Kagaho]

Yeah I dont think we have any study longer than 10 years. But the notion that the percentage of patients losing hair while on finasteride will increase significantly is challenged by this study:

https://www.hgspecialist.com/resources/product-files/files/Finasteride-10-year-follow-up.pdf

They found that most people stabilize between the 5-10 year mark. Even if they were below baseline at year 1.

Regarding celebrities, it depends. If they are old like Cruise, Travolta, Axl Rose, etc. They probably started a bit late or combined very primitive hair transplants from late 90s early 2000 with finasteride. I think newer generations starting dutasteride or finasteride in their early 20s are dealing better with hairloss.

 

[pegasus2]

That study shows that a good portion did worsen between 5 and 10 years, and that 14% worsened overall. Larger studies have shown that even more than that worsen over 5 to 10 years. Most people do maintain. I don't think we're in disagreement. Maybe you're focusing on my example of someone who stops maintaining at 45. I did not mean that is the norm, it is just an arbitrary number, as is 10 years. Some people stop maintaining at age 45 or 10 years, others may stop maintaining at 65 or after 40 years of treatment. I don't mean they stop working completely and that you will go totally bald. I do think that most people will fall below baseline if they live long enough. Dutasteride only lowers scalp DHT by 51%. When we can block it completely then you can maintain forever.

 

[Kagaho]

Most people do maintain. I don't think we're in disagreement. Maybe you're focusing on my example of someone who stops maintaining at 45. I did not mean that is the norm, it is just an arbitrary number, as is 10 years. Some people stop maintaining at age 45 or 10 years, others may stop maintaining at 65 or after 40 years of treatment. I don't mean they stop working completely and that you will go totally bald. I do think that most people will fall below baseline if they live long enough. Dutasteride only lowers scalp DHT by 51%. When we can block it completely then you can maintain forever.

I thought by "not working" you meant start aggressively balding like the eunuchs did on Hamilton study with Test injections. I do agree with most of what you posted here, there is no silver bullet for prevention yet, at least not for everyone but we can get close to that with current options.

I think Kintor is still developing an AR degrader, that seems like a big step forward.

 

[coolio]

Just an opinion, but I think there is probably something behind the complaints that Finasteride "quits working" after 5-7 years.


Yeah, I know it doesn't happen to all users.

Yeah, I know some guys on Finasteride are still steady or improving after 10+ years.

Yeah, I know some of the complaints are probably guys slipping below their pre-Finasteride baseline, and calling that a "sudden failure."

No, I'm not stupid enough to think that falling below baseline means the drug has stopped helping at all.



But I've heard too many smart perceptive guys report variations of the same thing (that the ongoing loss picks up speed after 5-7 years). I doubt they were all imagining it.

Why would it be happening? I dunno. But perhaps it's no coincident that 5-7 years is around the length of one complete healthy hair cycle. Just guessing.

Again, I know there is a lot of individual variation with Finasteride.

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

Because you're older and your cells are less resilient to stress. The Hamilton eunuch study you already referenced indicates that it is not accumulative damage, but rather a genetic clock that triggers hair loss. If dutasteride is not strong enough to prevent hair loss when your genetic clock hits 45 then it's not strong enough regardless of when you started losing your hair.

Ok so when you say full reversal to 25 you are only referring to cosmetic and not the biological age of the hair follicle (i.e. it's ability to resist stress)? Prolactin is a stress hormone. What I'm hoping is that PRL and PRLR have a large degree of control over the genetic clock you are referring to in regards to hair follicle susceptibility to DHT. The hamilton study shows it's not accumulative damage from androgens that determines follicle "sensitivity", but it could be cumulative PRLR stimulation that increases 5AR levels in the follicle and the follicle's "sensitivity" to DHT. No other treatment has long lasting effects like HMI 115 does to my knowledge which is why I'm hopeful that it might have some influence on this "sensitivity/genetic clock" aspect.

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

I thought by "not working" you meant start aggressively balding like the eunuchs did on Hamilton study with Test injections. I do agree with most of what you posted here, there is no silver bullet for prevention yet, at least not for everyone but we can get close to that with current options.

I think Kintor is still developing an AR degrader, that seems like a big step forward.

The older eunuchs started balding aggressively. The younger ones, if I recall correctly, started receding but not balding as aggressively as the older ones.

 

[Dr sanches]

Just an opinion, but I think there is probably something behind the complaints that Finasteride "quits working" after 5-7 years.


Yeah, I know it doesn't happen to all users.

Yeah, I know some guys on Finasteride are still steady or improving after 10+ years.

Yeah, I know some of the complaints are probably guys slipping below their pre-Finasteride baseline, and calling that a "sudden failure."

No, I'm not stupid enough to think that falling below baseline means the drug has stopped helping at all.



But I've heard too many smart perceptive guys report variations of the same thing (that the ongoing loss picks up speed after 5-7 years). I doubt they were all imagining it.

Why would it be happening? I dunno. But perhaps it's no coincident that 5-7 years is around the length of one complete healthy hair cycle. Just guessing.

Again, I know there is a lot of individual variation with Finasteride.

Finasteride works for mild hair loss for 10-15 years for aggressive hair loss 1-2 years . Why isn’t there a study done ? On people who were on both finasteride and min for 10 years vs finasteride alone it would be interesting to see

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

Another aspect to consider is insulin sensitivity, which declines as we age. SHBG and insulin have an inverse relationship. For those on 5ARIs for long periods of time(decades), they probably don't have as good as blood sugar control as when they were younger. With serum DHT suppressed on a 5ARI, more T can be bound to SHBG which means less substrate is available for DHT conversion in the scalp. If insulin remains higher for longer with aging, that means lower SHBG, more free T and hence more scalp DHT (since 5ARI don't stop ALL conversion).

If you couple that with the PRLR possibly controlling the amount of 5AR level in peripheral tissues like the hair follicle with increasing amounts being produced with cumulative PRLR stimulation from PRL, a genetic clock component of the problem of declining 5ARI efficacy with time may not be necessary. The difference between cellular function (disregarding the cumulative endocrinological effects of certain hormones) of a 20 year old and a 40 year old is not so great to explain this decline of efficacy in my opinion.

 

[pegasus2]

Maybe they started masturbating too much after a few years, overpowering finasteride

I'm going to need you to show me a prospective, double-blind randomized controlled and peer-reviewed trial with a p-value <.05 using a validated statistical analysis model, showing that this is not the case before we can say it's not. Also I'm going to need to see a confirmatory trial conducted by another independent research team, which also must be peer-reviewed. Until then the only thing that anyone can honestly say is that it might be true or it might not be, but we don't have the data to say either way. Anyone who says anything else is a liar and a clown with no objectivity or critical thinking skills.

 

[pegasus2]

Ok so when you say full reversal to 25 you are only referring to cosmetic and not the biological age of the hair follicle (i.e. it's ability to resist stress)? Prolactin is a stress hormone. What I'm hoping is that PRL and PRLR have a large degree of control over the genetic clock you are referring to in regards to hair follicle susceptibility to DHT. The hamilton study shows it's not accumulative damage from androgens that determines follicle "sensitivity", but it could be cumulative PRLR stimulation that increases 5AR levels in the follicle and the follicle's "sensitivity" to DHT. No other treatment has long lasting effects like HMI 115 does to my knowledge which is why I'm hopeful that it might have some influence on this "sensitivity/genetic clock" aspect.

No, I think as long as you are on the drug long enough your hairs can revert to the same thickness as when you were young, but it still won't look like a young person's hair even if it's as thick. I'm going to go ahead and go on record right now as saying unequivocally it doesn't not reverse the genetic clock. If you take HMI for 5 years and then stop, you will lose ground just as fast as if you'd been a eunuch all your life and suddenly given testosterone. If accumulative damage plays the major role then your hair will still last a good long time. If the age of your cells plays a larger role then you will lose ground, but of course nothing like after quitting minoxidil or finasteride which don't restore the DP to full size.

 

[Dr sanches]

No, I think as long as you are on the drug long enough your hairs can revert to the same thickness as when you were young, but it still won't look like a young person's hair even if it's as thick. I'm going to go ahead and go on record right now as saying unequivocally it doesn't not reverse the genetic clock. If you take HMI for 5 years and then stop, you will lose ground just as fast as if you'd been a eunuch all your life and suddenly given testosterone. If accumulative damage plays the major role then your hair will still last a good long time. If the age of your cells plays a larger role then you will lose ground, but of course nothing like after quitting minoxidil or finasteride which don't restore the DP to full size.

Pegasus you literally don’t know anything there’s millions of people on tresles who bald on Reddit despite finasteride and minoxidil

 

[Flamingflaps]

Pegasus you literally don’t know anything there’s millions of people on tresles who bald on Reddit despite finasteride and minoxidil

No there are not millions of people on tressless who are balding on Reddit despite meds. The problem with you saying this stuff is it’s going to put people off even trying existing medication. Many people will maintain for years, decades:

 

[Dr sanches]

No there are not millions of people on tressless who are balding on Reddit despite meds. The problem with you saying this stuff is it’s going to put people off even trying existing medication. Most people will maintain four years, decades:

Aggressive balders on Reddit literally lose hair aggressively in 1 year on dutasteride

 

[Flamingflaps]

Aggressive balders on Reddit literally lose hair aggressively in 1 year on dutasteride

There aren’t “millions” of them that do so. It is an unfortunate minority.

 

[Dr sanches]

There aren’t “millions” of them that do so. It is an unfortunate minority.

Copium look at that user named lost in here he has mild hair loss and can’t even maintain on finasteride or dutasteride

 

[Kagaho]

Aggressive balders on Reddit literally lose hair aggressively in 1 year on dutasteride

@Dr sanches There is no drug that is going to work for everyone. But most people mantain long term with dutasteride or finasteride.

Show us a study proving they dont or shut the f*** up.

 

[Dr sanches]

@Dr sanches There is no drug that is going to work for everyone. But most people mantain long term with dutasteride or finasteride.

Show us a study proving they dont or shut the f*** up.

Young teen balders will not maintain look at Reddit

 

[pegasus2]

Take this to another thread