Kintor has started Phase 3 trial in China for Pyrilutamide

[Modill]

again there is no evidence for heart failure with these kind of drugs.

there is no incidences of heart failure even with oral anti androgens. they used proxilutamide in their trials at 200mg orally. so lets say you use 10mg topically of pyrilutamide, that is 1/20th of the dose and topically so probably less than a hundredth and additionally proxilutamide is much stronger itself. so you are many hundred times weaker in anti androgenic action than the pills they use and these do not cause heart failure at all. the amount that gets in your blood is minuscule. there is just one fake report using RU on the internet and everybody went after it

Why are you so sure?

People notice chest pain with RU or Pyri. I had arrhythmias with finasteride. And with pyri I notice arrhythmias like those I noticed with finasteride.

I believe that with testosterone, the heart is stronger.

If you google anti-androgen treatment and heart disease, you will see many associated problems.

 

[badnewsbearer]

I think there should be more research on better vehicles than the compounds themselves. the ones in use rn are utter garbage and make zero use of modern technology its literally just alcohol like in 1980. no progress on compounds coupled with zero progress on the delivery mechanism results in an overall bad product development. which is pretty sad bc I think everyone could benefit from it, mostly people who get side effects but also efficacy can be improved with a better delivery mechanism. I dont see it happening however because there is little to no money to make there

 

[kiwi666]

I think there should be more research on better vehicles than the compounds themselves. the ones in use rn are utter garbage and make zero use of modern technology its literally just alcohol like in 1980. no progress on compounds coupled with zero progress on the delivery mechanism results in an overall bad product development. which is pretty sad bc I think everyone could benefit from it, mostly people who get side effects but also efficacy can be improved with a better delivery mechanism. I dont see it happening however because there is little to no money to make there

If these labs can make (copy) pyril they can probably copy better vehicles.

How can we convince them to do that?

 

[badnewsbearer]

If these labs can make (copy) pyril they can probably copy better vehicles.

How can we convince them to do that?

so recently I think there has been quite some research on topical drug delivery and I read a paper from 2022 that goes over all of them recently. not sure I can find it. the problem with this is that while any pharmacist can probably make them its not like you can easily test what you get is actually the proper thing. a mistake in the process can f*** up the entire base in the vehicle and either make it impossible to penetrate or it just penetrates like alcohol and gives side effects. I think the best way to convince them is to make them a price offering. however these would all be individually made and thus quite expensive I imagine. a liposomal from the pharmacy already costs quite a lot and they usually make it for many people and have some kind of process set up. in case of pyrilutamide, the problem with compounding pharmacies is that they cant make it because the active drug is illegal for use.

Finasteride-loaded nano-lipidic carriers for follicular drug delivery: preformulation screening and Box-Behnken experimental design for optimization of variables - PMC

Finasteride (finasteride), a 5-α reductase enzyme inhibitor is mainly used orally for the treatment of androgenic alopecia and benign prostate hyperplasia. The present study was undertaken for systematic optimization and assessment of the designed ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Physicochemical Characterization of Chitosan-Decorated Finasteride Solid Lipid Nanoparticles for Skin Drug Delivery - PubMed

Finasteride is considered the drug of choice for androgenic alopecia and benign prostate hyperplasia. The aim of the study was to formulate nanodrug carriers of finasteride with enhanced retentive properties in the skin. The finasteride was formulated as solid lipid nanoparticles that were...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5687104_Development_of_Liposomal_Systems_of_Finasteride_for_Topical_Applications_Design_Characterization_and_In_Vitro_Evaluation

Novel iron oxide nanocarriers loading finasteride or dutasteride: Enhanced skin penetration for topical treatment of alopecia

In the present study, iron oxide nanoparticles, in the form of maghemite core coated with lauric acid (ION), were synthesized and loaded with finaster…

www.sciencedirect.com

"Nonetheless, dutasteride-ION application on skin also did not lead to drug penetration in the receptor compartment when Franz diffusion cells were used, and more meaningful, despite increasing dutasteride distribution in the stratum corneum and within the hair follicles, did not further increase dutasteride penetration in the remaining skin compared to the control solution"


"experiments did not detect finasteride in the receptor solution when the finasteride-ION permeation experiment was performed in Franz diffusion cells."

so there is a lot of info about how to make these things when you have the tools. I dont understand why no company is jumping in these studies, probably because there is not much money to be made. some are quite promising and they use Franz diffusion cells with human skin to check if the solution permeates the dermis and how much retention there is.

someone would need to dig through the studies and find out if it could work for pyrilutamide. (based on molecular size and charge etc, I dont know much about that). or ask a chemist. there was a guy on tressless recently who seemed in this area and had an idea for a vehicle and was searching for people to test it. but these things from the internet have never worked out..

then contact the lab if they could even do that. I assume if they can make the molecule they could make the solution as well if there is enough demand? again however, you'd need some kind of way to ensure that they are doing it right and that is probably not so trivial.

I personally think that it would be much more feasible to have significant progress in hair loss research by making things we already have work well instead of researching new chemicals. because ultimately the androgen receptor is the primary target and of course you can target anything downstream however there are so many pathways involved that it is extremely hard to achieve something meaningful and this has been shown over and over again through the failure of companies like samumed, follicum, histogen etc. all who tried to address pathways downstream that are ultimately altered by androgen receptor action.

then the question becomes though why Kintor with the funding they have would not make such a solution themselves. and maybe they have if they are so certain that there is no systemic action, maybe everyone is just using it without the proper vehicle. however id be surprised if that is so and if they aren't just using stupid ethanol pg. it will be really interesting once they have a phase 3 application in the US because then they will have to publish what vehicle they are using and how they prepare the whole thing. I hope its not ethanol. I think that'd be a lost opportunity but I can almost bet they are doing that because its cheap and seems to work well enough. however if you go the way of expensive trials, why not go the whole way... ethanol is such a dumb way to deliver a f*****g anti androgen to the skin only. they make super advanced PROTACs and then use alcohol to deliver them would be REALLY dumb.


in 2022 we have so many alternative options, from nano carriers to liposomal solutions in every variation, studies show it is possible to have 5* the drug in the skin with high retention and minimal diffusion past the dermis into the system so why not make use of that research. thats what I dont understand.

I think hasson and xylon went in the right direction however for the wrong reasons. also they made theirs stupid high in concentration and did not publish anything from the case studies to the actual vehicle because they are in it for the money and not scientific progress.


imagine a vehicle as described in these studies that combines dutasteride and some anti androgen and it has maximum local retention and minimal systemic impact, that would be better than anything a new company can come up with. or maybe its not even possible in vivo. I wouldn't know why though because the Franz diffusion cell literally uses human skin samples to make realistic. olix are also testing their iRNA molecule with this method. I think the future lies in proper delivery but I dont see anyone in industry getting serious enough about it at this point

 

[kiwi666]

so recently I think there has been quite some research on topical drug delivery and I read a paper from 2022 that goes over all of them recently. not sure I can find it. the problem with this is that while any pharmacist can probably make them its not like you can easily test what you get is actually the proper thing. a mistake in the process can f*** up the entire base in the vehicle and either make it impossible to penetrate or it just penetrates like alcohol and gives side effects. I think the best way to convince them is to make them a price offering. however these would all be individually made and thus quite expensive I imagine. a liposomal from the pharmacy already costs quite a lot and they usually make it for many people and have some kind of process set up. in case of pyrilutamide, the problem with compounding pharmacies is that they cant make it because the active drug is illegal for use.

Finasteride-loaded nano-lipidic carriers for follicular drug delivery: preformulation screening and Box-Behnken experimental design for optimization of variables - PMC

Finasteride (finasteride), a 5-α reductase enzyme inhibitor is mainly used orally for the treatment of androgenic alopecia and benign prostate hyperplasia. The present study was undertaken for systematic optimization and assessment of the designed ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Physicochemical Characterization of Chitosan-Decorated Finasteride Solid Lipid Nanoparticles for Skin Drug Delivery - PubMed

Finasteride is considered the drug of choice for androgenic alopecia and benign prostate hyperplasia. The aim of the study was to formulate nanodrug carriers of finasteride with enhanced retentive properties in the skin. The finasteride was formulated as solid lipid nanoparticles that were...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5687104_Development_of_Liposomal_Systems_of_Finasteride_for_Topical_Applications_Design_Characterization_and_In_Vitro_Evaluation

Novel iron oxide nanocarriers loading finasteride or dutasteride: Enhanced skin penetration for topical treatment of alopecia

In the present study, iron oxide nanoparticles, in the form of maghemite core coated with lauric acid (ION), were synthesized and loaded with finaster…

www.sciencedirect.com

"Nonetheless, dutasteride-ION application on skin also did not lead to drug penetration in the receptor compartment when Franz diffusion cells were used, and more meaningful, despite increasing dutasteride distribution in the stratum corneum and within the hair follicles, did not further increase dutasteride penetration in the remaining skin compared to the control solution"


"experiments did not detect finasteride in the receptor solution when the finasteride-ION permeation experiment was performed in Franz diffusion cells."

so there is a lot of info about how to make these things when you have the tools. I dont understand why no company is jumping in these studies, probably because there is not much money to be made. some are quite promising and they use Franz diffusion cells with human skin to check if the solution permeates the dermis and how much retention there is.

someone would need to dig through the studies and find out if it could work for pyrilutamide. (based on molecular size and charge etc, I dont know much about that). or ask a chemist. there was a guy on tressless recently who seemed in this area and had an idea for a vehicle and was searching for people to test it. but these things from the internet have never worked out..

then contact the lab if they could even do that. I assume if they can make the molecule they could make the solution as well if there is enough demand? again however, you'd need some kind of way to ensure that they are doing it right and that is probably not so trivial.

I personally think that it would be much more feasible to have significant progress in hair loss research by making things we already have work well instead of researching new chemicals. because ultimately the androgen receptor is the primary target and of course you can target anything downstream however there are so many pathways involved that it is extremely hard to achieve something meaningful and this has been shown over and over again through the failure of companies like samumed, follicum, histogen etc. all who tried to address pathways downstream that are ultimately altered by androgen receptor action.

then the question becomes though why Kintor with the funding they have would not make such a solution themselves. and maybe they have if they are so certain that there is no systemic action, maybe everyone is just using it without the proper vehicle. however id be surprised if that is so and if they aren't just using stupid ethanol pg. it will be really interesting once they have a phase 3 application in the US because then they will have to publish what vehicle they are using and how they prepare the whole thing. I hope its not ethanol. I think that'd be a lost opportunity but I can almost bet they are doing that because its cheap and seems to work well enough. however if you go the way of expensive trials, why not go the whole way... ethanol is such a dumb way to deliver a f*****g anti androgen to the skin only. they make super advanced PROTACs and then use alcohol to deliver them would be REALLY dumb.


in 2022 we have so many alternative options, from nano carriers to liposomal solutions in every variation, studies show it is possible to have 5* the drug in the skin with high retention and minimal diffusion past the dermis into the system so why not make use of that research. thats what I dont understand.

I think hasson and xylon went in the right direction however for the wrong reasons. also they made theirs stupid high in concentration and did not publish anything from the case studies to the actual vehicle because they are in it for the money and not scientific progress.


imagine a vehicle as described in these studies that combines dutasteride and some anti androgen and it has maximum local retention and minimal systemic impact, that would be better than anything a new company can come up with. or maybe its not even possible in vivo. I wouldn't know why though because the Franz diffusion cell literally uses human skin samples to make realistic. olix are also testing their iRNA molecule with this method. I think the future lies in proper delivery but I dont see anyone in industry getting serious enough about it at this point

This is why I think Kintor might be using a different vehicle.

Their first drug produced side effects. Their updated drug (reportedly) does not.

Do you know if you can buy a nano or liposomal vehicles? If we can, then theoretically one could purchase drugs like pyril in powder form and mix at home.

I don’t want to do that because I’m a little sceptical non-offical chemicals and I’m not a back yard chemist so mixing doesn’t come naturally.

 

[Hope111]

If someone who is taking piry analyzes his blood and the levels are the same as those in the study, it would not clarify if the problem is the vehicle?

 

[Modill]

@Hope111 I would like to test my blood. I will ask to my doctor if they can do that.

By other hand @badnewsbearer , if you find a right vehicle, any pharmacy from Andorra can manipulate Pyri and mixed with the vehicle.

 

[badnewsbearer]

This is why I think Kintor might be using a different vehicle.

Their first drug produced side effects. Their updated drug (reportedly) does not.

Do you know if you can buy a nano or liposomal vehicles? If we can, then theoretically one could purchase drugs like pyril in powder form and mix at home.

I don’t want to do that because I’m a little sceptical non-offical chemicals and I’m not a back yard chemist so mixing doesn’t come naturally.

I bought topical liposomal finasteride last week. you need a pharmacy that makes it for you. just buying liposomes and mixing them together with the drug doesnt work. you want the molecule inside the liposomes otherwise it makes no sense. and so I think you need special equipment for it, no chance to mix this at home. where have you read that they updated their drug? I haven't seen that anywhere

 

[badnewsbearer]

If someone who is taking piry analyzes his blood and the levels are the same as those in the study, it would not clarify if the problem is the vehicle?

not really. the study has an average, one individual doing this would not help much. maybe if not using the right vehicle leads to a many fold increase in blood. not sure. it could be useful, however I dont know anybody that does that. testing chemicals sure, testing blood for hormones etc sure but testing chemicals in blood? I dont know how phase 3 works in china but I think once it comes on the market there the vehicle must be known, if not on the bottle it should be in some public application record. but again its china so not sure. again I wouldn't be surprised if they just use ethanol because they aren't as innovative as people originally thought. imagine delivering a protac in alcohol, I read posts from 2001 from this forum people using the same vehicle as a major Pharma company in 2025 with an ultra advanced drug, that would be hilarious. for the degrader in particular vehicle is probably extremely important. I think most people here would genuinely make better researchers than these guys

 

[badnewsbearer]

@Hope111 I would like to test my blood. I will ask to my doctor if they can do that.

By other hand @badnewsbearer , if you find a right vehicle, any pharmacy from Andorra can manipulate Pyri and mixed with the vehicle.

do you live there? do they require you to send them the active drug or do they acquire it themselves as a research chemical? I mean I dont know what vehicle they use but liposomal if done right should be much better than ethanol. you'd have more retention in the skin and thus less diffusion into the blood. so you can use less and get less in the blood. that'd be a double win. any pharmacist can look up how to make this. again though, probably har to verify especially since its on illegal grounds anyway if you use research drugs. im sure there is some guy on reddit who knows more about this stuff than me, there is some pharmacist on there as well

 

[CTD]

So I'm assuming pyrilutamide won't be able to be dissolved in stemoxydine or the KB solution (non-PG formula)?

 

[Flamingflaps]

I bought topical liposomal finasteride last week. you need a pharmacy that makes it for you. just buying liposomes and mixing them together with the drug doesnt work. you want the molecule inside the liposomes otherwise it makes no sense. and so I think you need special equipment for it, no chance to mix this at home. where have you read that they updated their drug? I haven't seen that anywhere

It’s my understanding that all they did was lower the dosage, and the final formula used a basic carrier. Isn’t this information in the trial notes?

 

[badnewsbearer]

It’s my understanding that all they did was lower the dosage, and the final formula used a basic carrier. Isn’t this information in the trial notes?

it should be in there. I have read many studies and usually it states that the placebo group got the same vehicle and then they name the vehicle. especially because they had many skin irritation side effects. if they used the basic carrier then Kintor is a massive company run by total idiots, it'd be so stupid

 

[badnewsbearer]

someone wrote this on reddit


"As someone who is not a medical expert, can I ask how exactly are the blood concentrations of 0,3-4,1 ng/ml (Pyrilutamide) and 0,3-10,1 ng/ml (metabolite) low? A typical reference range for total testosterone levels in men is 2,5 – 9,5 ng/ml, which means that for some individuals, the concentration of pyrilutamide in the blood could be higher than testosterone. Even in the less extreme case, if the binding affinity of pyrilutamide is as high as claimed, wouldn’t there be very significant AR competition happening in the systemic level?"

lol I think its true. everybody says the concentration is low because thats what they have said. but it doesnt seem low at all

 

[badnewsbearer]

It’s my understanding that all they did was lower the dosage, and the final formula used a basic carrier. Isn’t this information in the trial notes?

yeah it says this here

http://pdf.dfcfw.com/pdf/H3_AP202007241393752560_1.pdf

they tested up to 48 mg and decided to go with 10mg, 5mg twice a day. no particularly mentioning of the vehicle however that pretty much means its not some advanced vehicle because well, then they'd certainly talk about it. just another lost opportunity. but hey I think in 2037 some company will pick up on this and market their super expensive liposomal pyrilutamide solution. kind of crazy that in 2025 we will not only not have cloning as predicted many times in the early 2000s and even 5 years ago, we also won't really have a side effect free maintenance drug, in this day and age it is not possible to selectively lower the DHT levels in scalp without making people impotent. that should be a major emberassement for people working in this industry. how Kintor jerks off to their "first in class, best in class, we have high expertise in androgen mediated diseases" bullshit is comical, they dont know sh*t otherwise not half of the internet would get side effects from the "finasteride killer". and their degrader won't be any better either

 

[Min0]

guys, after cutting the dose to 1/4 for a week without noticing any changes to the side effect (low libido). i'm finally stopping this drug and planning to try a weaker AR antagonist.

pyri works great for the hair but for me it killed my libido.

it is accumulating somewhere because when i started i could see the effect of lowering the dose immediately (the itch come back quickly and libido heals rapidly). but now even with low doses it takes a long time to notice.

i took a long shower and chaged all my clothes and bed sheets and pillow.

what's the consensus on CB-03-10 ? is it true that it has no side effects because it is well designed to degrade when it hits the bloodstream but on the other hand it's only good for maintenance ? because that's fine by me. if i can keep the hairs that pyri grew back i'll be happy.

 

[Modill]

do you live there? do they require you to send them the active drug or do they acquire it themselves as a research chemical? I mean I dont know what vehicle they use but liposomal if done right should be much better than ethanol. you'd have more retention in the skin and thus less diffusion into the blood. so you can use less and get less in the blood. that'd be a double win. any pharmacist can look up how to make this. again though, probably har to verify especially since its on illegal grounds anyway if you use research drugs. im sure there is some guy on reddit who knows more about this stuff than me, there is some pharmacist on there as well

I don’t live in Andorra, but when I need things like this, they prepare for me. You can send the ingredients to them and can use them. They also have a liposomal machine. But I have already asked to them if they know how to use a better vehicle for Pyri and they don’t know.

I also wrote to Kintor asking for their vehicle and they told me that we should not use the drug until approval for regulators.

 

[Hope111]

guys, after cutting the dose to 1/4 for a week without noticing any changes to the side effect (low libido). i'm finally stopping this drug and planning to try a weaker AR antagonist.

pyri works great for the hair but for me it killed my libido.

it is accumulating somewhere because when i started i could see the effect of lowering the dose immediately (the itch come back quickly and libido heals rapidly). but now even with low doses it takes a long time to notice.

i took a long shower and chaged all my clothes and bed sheets and pillow.

what's the consensus on CB-03-10 ? is it true that it has no side effects because it is well designed to degrade when it hits the bloodstream but on the other hand it's only good for maintenance ? because that's fine by me. if i can keep the hairs that pyri grew back i'll be happy.

I am also looking for something to replace Finasteride. I'm rejecting women that I like because of the side effects and my surroundings are starting to think that I'm homosexual (I don't have problems with them haha) but yes, I need to maintain and with that I would be happy.
anyway, when should piry rehearsals come out in the US? fourth quarter of 2022 right?
another aspect, I suppose you know cosmeRNA68, in this they have created some micelles for the molecule, so I suppose that scientists are aware of the importance of an effective vehicle, more than us. One thing that strikes me about this compound is that in theory it suppresses the AR receptor in the hair, but nevertheless its result is an increase of 4% according to the study, when it should be a cure in the field of androgens.

 

[badnewsbearer]

I think we can put this to rest. we have all been fooled by great marketing but as soon as china was on the table we should have know that they are all about looking real to the outside but having low quality products. Kintor did not do much research and did not motivate why pyrilutamide should even have less sexual sides. their goal was never to make a safe anti androgen but to just get some slice of the finasteride market particularly in china. if 10% or more have sexual sides who care there is still enough people to use it in their own country. thats all they need for it to be a commercial success. susceptibility to side effects on anti androgens is a genetic defect just like hair loss itself. its ridiculous to think someone would tailor a treatment just for people with this defect. I sure hope however they get major issue with FDA approval and their shitty product flies them right in the face. then they can apply their ethanol garbage vehicle right where it belongs.

 

[badnewsbearer]

guys, after cutting the dose to 1/4 for a week without noticing any changes to the side effect (low libido). i'm finally stopping this drug and planning to try a weaker AR antagonist.

pyri works great for the hair but for me it killed my libido.

it is accumulating somewhere because when i started i could see the effect of lowering the dose immediately (the itch come back quickly and libido heals rapidly). but now even with low doses it takes a long time to notice.

i took a long shower and chaged all my clothes and bed sheets and pillow.

what's the consensus on CB-03-10 ? is it true that it has no side effects because it is well designed to degrade when it hits the bloodstream but on the other hand it's only good for maintenance ? because that's fine by me. if i can keep the hairs that pyri grew back i'll be happy.

its weird because in their report they state maximum accumulation occurred after 2 weeks and resulted in steady state levels in the blood after that. CB idk, it supposedly has no sexual sides because it degrades into something like cortisone when it enters the blood stream so once it reaches the penis or brain should not be anti androgenic anymore. also larger trials for 12 months exist with no sexual sides. however ri haven't seen many positive anecdotes that it works. it'd be nice for someone to try it though and document their experience