New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[Morinohtar]

No numbing cream, hurts a bit ahahahaha

Well, i apply some pressure (really?! ) so i can see the blood come out, because if i dont it wont bleed. Since i didnt see pics from anyone (i read the entire topic, though i might have missed them some how) after the rolling i just tried to copy the bloody mess of the vids about skin treatment, where the patient was really bloody.

My head normally feels fine after 2 days +/-. Normally i do this on a Sunday. On Monday i still feel that burn sensation, but after the 2nd day it seems fine.

 

[benjt]

As this is a general chat thread by now, I'm just announcing that I'm going back on minoxidil. Recovered greatly from the side effects that I had gotten from minoxidil (1ml twice a day) before dropping it. I'll recommence minoxidil now at 0.5 ml once per day and see what happens.

 

[Koga]

Do you guys think L'oréal Neogenic Stemoxydine 5% might be legit? Because their science concluded more or less the same as what has been said here.

 

[Jlyncher]

Jlyncher I saw your photos and they are very promising, what is your regimen, you may have posted it in one of the 260 pages and I probably read it but all these posts are kind of blurred together in my mind now I have been reading so much,

Hey SF, I've pretty much followed the study. 192 ct DR once weekly on Sundays, 5% minoxidil twice daily, on roll day I'll apply in the morning and roll at night. Occasionally, if I'm up late enough I'll apply minoxidil an hour or 2 after rolling, otherwise I'll apply it the next morning. I always take a hot shower before dr'ing to get my scalp clean and supple, and I want my hair wet so I can comb it flat to avoid tangles while rolling. I also try to keep a steady flow of nutrients, especially on roll day, amino acids, krill oil, various vitamins, just added diatomaceous earth for the helluva it (thanks Squeeg), etc.

Since the keto shampoos possible interference with the inflammation process was brought up, I switched to only using them on thurs and sat to be safe. But I have no idea if it really matters.

As far as intensity, my temples and crown look like Morinohtar's when I'm done (a little less in the midscalp, as I'm not as focused there). I was seeing less blood in the early weeks than I am now though, I think this is due to a combination of better circulation and a little more aggressive rolling on my part.

 

[Youcandoit]

I noticed that too, I have to cut my fingernails more than once a week when taking a lot of MSM and haircuts are more often too but I just use a clipper so it's no big deal.

I'm going to back off minoxidil, I had upped mine to 3 times a day and I had an episode last night where I had heart palpitations, fast heartbeat and was dizzy. It was not a good feeling for about 3 hours. I'm very fit so anytime I feel like that I know it's self induced. I've had these symptoms before on 15% minoxidil but never on 5% so I think
with the rolling we are getting much better absorption. I'm off minoxidil for a couple of days and I'll start back up with
2 times a day.

- - - Updated - - -




:woot:

holy ****! I'm not doing it anywhere near that. The study did not call for anything that approaching that type of wounding. It could even be counter-productive.

they they were using 1.5 so I'm sure those in the study bled as well, I have ran into a few here who say they don't bleed with 1.5 means there scalp is thicker, but the point of dermarolling is wounding so it would not be counter productive, not 100% sure though everyone's scalp is different size I guess.

 

[tjm]

After lurking some I've decided I want to give this a try. My biggest concern however is permanent scarring and/or permanent damage to hair follicles. I'm around a NW6 and shave my head with a razor so if I don't have much success here I want the skin to not be damaged in anyway since it's exposed.

So do the tiny incisions by the needles create any visible scarring if it's very minor? What about damaging the follicles? As far as the latter, yes I understand that if people are experiencing growth then it's obviously not happening...for them but what type of risk are we talking about?

 

[squeegee]

After lurking some I've decided I want to give this a try. My biggest concern however is permanent scarring and/or permanent damage to hair follicles. I'm around a NW6 and shave my head with a razor so if I don't have much success here I want the skin to not be damaged in anyway since it's exposed.

So do the tiny incisions by the needles create any visible scarring if it's very minor? What about damaging the follicles? As far as the latter, yes I understand that if people are experiencing growth then it's obviously not happening...for them but what type of risk are we talking about?

LOL.It is called Micro-needling for a reason. It destroys scar tissues not the other way around. No risk whatsoever.

 

[ganonford]

tjm, dermarollers are made to treat scar tissue, not to promote it!

 

[tjm]

LOL.It is called Micro-needling for a reason. It destroys scar tissues not the other way around. No risk whatsoever.

Ok then, thanks! Though I'll probably start off with just rolling a very small area to see how my skin reacts.

Also, I am not taking finasteride or minoxidil because of possible side effects so I'll be another to experiment and see what type of results can be gained from drug-free treatment. I'll try to document everything and contribute in the other thread if anything noteworthy happens.

 

[Chromeo]

Jesus, I don't think you need to roll as extreme as that, I stop when I start to see little blood spots. So far I have nothing to report, I've been rolling for about 8 weeks and have not noticed anything major except maybe a bit of thickening but it's hard to tell.

Breaking, I'm guessing you have nothing to report because you DO need to roll as extreme as that. You should maybe think about upping the ante and check if you notice an improvement.

 

[Chipman222]

I've just recently stopped using Minoxidil because it made my head itch and I don't think I was getting results with it.

Is there any point to dermarolling without minoxidil?

 

[infected]

What brand of dr do you guys use?

 

[closetmetrosexual]

I have ran into a few here who say they don't bleed with 1.5 means there scalp is thicker,

Or, more likely, in my opinion, they did not apply enough pressure.

 

[2young2retire]

i have to report my hair is not shedding even a single hair even if i pull it like crazy. also it is not grasy or oily.

 

[Jlyncher]

i have to report my hair is not shedding even a single hair even if i pull it like crazy. also it is not grasy or oily.

My shedding is way down too, did you notice an initial shed? Most users have reported a shed early on, some minor some more so.

 

[2young2retire]

i am not sure maybe slight increase around week 2 end of week 2? i dont know for sure,

My shedding is way down too, did you notice an initial shed? Most users have reported a shed early on, some minor some more so.

 

[Nicholas89]

Hey SF, I've pretty much followed the study. 192 ct DR once weekly on Sundays, 5% minoxidil twice daily, on roll day I'll apply in the morning and roll at night. Occasionally, if I'm up late enough I'll apply minoxidil an hour or 2 after rolling, otherwise I'll apply it the next morning. I always take a hot shower before dr'ing to get my scalp clean and supple, and I want my hair wet so I can comb it flat to avoid tangles while rolling. I also try to keep a steady flow of nutrients, especially on roll day, amino acids, krill oil, various vitamins, just added diatomaceous earth for the helluva it (thanks Squeeg), etc.

Since the keto shampoos possible interference with the inflammation process was brought up, I switched to only using them on thurs and sat to be safe. But I have no idea if it really matters.

As far as intensity, my temples and crown look like Morinohtar's when I'm done (a little less in the midscalp, as I'm not as focused there). I was seeing less blood in the early weeks than I am now though, I think this is due to a combination of better circulation and a little more aggressive rolling on my part.

Could you write more about keto shampoos possible interference with the inflammation process? I'm new to this and I didn't follow the thread from the beginning (or write a page on which that was discussed please)

 

[odalbak]

As this is a general chat thread by now, I'm just announcing that I'm going back on minoxidil. Recovered greatly from the side effects that I had gotten from minoxidil (1ml twice a day) before dropping it. I'll recommence minoxidil now at 0.5 ml once per day and see what happens.

Good luck benjt. Will you use additional stuff like castor oil, vit B12 or else? I mean, wounding is painful, I'm sure you want to give yourself as much chance as possible…

 

[benjt]

For now, I'll not recommence dermarolling. I want to find a dose that is safe for me first, given that dermarolling - among other things - also increases absorption. And by no means am I willing to go through the minoxidil side effects hell again. I actually look like 24 again, and not like 34. For the most part at least - some wrinkles still there, but eye rings vanished by more than 50%, and all my wrinkles became way smaller. My reasoning right now is that, if I find a safe dose that does not lead to an increase in side effects again, that my recovery will continue. While I have not recovered from minoxidil completely yet, I lost all my gains in hair and even more. Truth be told, I hate that and want to battle it. Should I experience an increase in my still existant side effects though I will immediately drop minoxidil again.

Once - and if - I found a safe minoxidil dose, I'll recommence dermarolling. I'll slowly work my way up, starting with 0.5 ml once a day, then 0.75 ml, and so on, and maybe even at one point 0.5 ml twice a day. 1 ml twice a day was disastrous.

 

[Jlyncher]

Could you write more about keto shampoos possible interference with the inflammation process? I'm new to this and I didn't follow the thread from the beginning (or write a page on which that was discussed please)

I can't find the original discussion regarding this, and my eyes are beginning to blur from looking lol, but I did find this courtesy of MIA, PrincessRambo;

The role of anti-inflammatories in wound healing

"This has been asked and debated many times before, whether one should use anti-inflammatories (keto shampoos, emu oil, etc) or not early in wound healing, I personally advocated against using them in the first few days post wounding because as I have stated, I don't know what the role would be and that it could interfere with the healing process. A study posted by a user here a while back (shivers20) got me intrigued and I dig a little bit of digging into the matter...

http://www.triomeetingposters.org/wp...009/05/115.pdf


Normal wound healing leads to scar formation (fibrotic healing). The phenomenon of scarless fetal healing has shown that healing can occur without exuberant inflammation and by the activity offibroblasts with a regenerative phenotype. We propose to mimic this phenomenon in adult wounds by using agents that reduce inflammation and by controlling the selection, recruitment and collagen synthesis of fibroblasts in the wound. Alone or together, these approaches should reduce collagen production and scar formation, and result in more regenerative healing.

These results demonstrate that early, short-term treatment with anti-inflammatory agents can attenuate the wound inflammatory response with downstream effects on healing. Nimesulide andProstaglandin E2 (PGE2) each have specific and potentially useful effects on the healing process. The finding that Nimesulide- and PGE2 treated wounds have less collagen deposition with higher regain of tensile strength supports our premise that controlled modulation of inflammation can decrease fibrosis without impeding the healing process


The study above was trying to achieve scarless wound healing and they used nimesulide a strong anti-inflammatory agent (cox 2 inhibitor) along with PGE2.

Here is a good review about some studies hitting at this:

http://regenerationinnature.wordpress.com/tag/collagen/


In many non-regenerative models wound healing is followed by the formation of a fibrotic scar that blocks further regeneration, scar-free wound healing is a rather conserved feature in regeneration-competent species. It is known for example that, in some contexts, the mammalian embryo is able to heal wounds without forming a fibrotic scar and, consequently, allowing a functional regeneration. During mammalian foetal development this capacity of scarless wound healing is lost as the immune system develops. Some studies have reported that the inhibition of anti-inflammatory factors in mice embryos impairs their capacity to heal wounds without making a fibrotic scar.


The first study confirmed these claims by using a cox 2 inhibitor


Treatments were given daily on the day of wounding and for the next 3 days.


In most mammals including humans it seems we have very little regeneration ability, here is the difference between tissue repair and tissue regeneration:


Repair refers to the physiologic adaptation of an organ after injury in an effort to re-establish continuity without regards to exact replacement of lost/damaged tissue. True tissue regeneration refers to the replacement of lost/damaged tissue with an ‘exact’ copy, such that both morphology and functionality are completely restored



Interestingly, fundamental conditions required for tissue regeneration often oppose conditions that favor efficient wound repair, including inhibition of (1) platelet activation, (2) inflammatory response, and (3) wound contraction.[SUP][1][/SUP]


So what does that all mean for using an anti-inflammatory? If it reduces fibrosis and promotes scareless wound healing, it seems to be a good thing, but the remaining question is then, do anti-inflammatories inhibit production of growth factors necessary for hair growth? I have no idea, yet...

http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrar...nt/121/13/2381


During the inflammatory phase, the recruitment of neutrophils, macrophages, and mast cells highlights the need for a robust immune response to ward off potential infections. Macrophages not only mediate this inflammation, but are also implicated in the guidance of the angiogenic response,[SUP]3[/SUP] part of the subsequent proliferative phase. However, there is a great deal of speculation as to the mechanisms underlying the macrophage contribution to angiogenesis; indeed, there is not even a consensus in the literature on whether macrophages are pro-angiogenic,[SUP]4,5[/SUP]anti-angiogenic,[SUP]6[/SUP] or not influential at all.[SUP]7[/SUP]


The question then becomes whether the beneficial growth factors for our hair are only released during the inflammatory phase... Like I said, I ain't got a clue ... even these researchers don't seem to have a consensus on general wound healing mechanisms...Just some food for thought..."​

Soooo...basically my approach has been to keep keto shampoos several days away from wounding day, because of the possibility of them interfering with the production of growth factors released immediately post wound. But that's just how I've used them in my regimen. As the studies above show, this might not be necessary after all. Honestly if you wanted to use a keto shampoo, emu oil or whatever 24hrs later I don't think it would be a problem at all.