New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[terrybart518]

See..this is what I mean....Your hair won't look freakin healthier after ONE EFFIN DAY!!!

I didn't say one day! And combined with a change in diet (juicing raw veggies), topical treatments, massages and supplementation I do think my hair looks healthier. I think my skin tone also looks better and its not unheard of to see changes quickly in the body.

 

[TNTS]

princessRambo thank you for the welcome. (English is not my first language, so please be gentle)


You're right about egfr inhibitors and i saw that topical leflunomide may cause overgrowth of eyelashes. But still i am not sure if by applying once, after 2nd day of the DR, if will cause any problem. I will search it more. (arava 10mg. soluble in ethanol)


Unfortunately, i have stop using minoxidil 2 years ago, after 16 years of use. I do not want to go back again.
So i have searched alternatives.

Here is one, for wnt signaling.

Vitamin B12 Activates the Wnt-Pathway in Human Hair Follicle Cells by Induction of beta-Catenin and Inhibition of Glycogensynthase Kinase-3 Transcription

PDF (Size:198KB) PP. 25-29 DOI: 10.4236/jcdsa.2011.12004
Author(s)
Walter Krugluger, Karl Stiefsohn, Katharina Laciak, Karl Moser, Claudia Moser

ABSTRACT
Background and Objectives: Micrograft transplantation is accompanied by a transient induction of telogen in transplanted hair follicles (HF), which might be avoided by supporting the metabolic pathways of the micrograft during the ex vivo period. Vitamin B12 (cobalamin) has been suggested to influence HF growth and cycling in humans, but the mechanisms are unclear. Method: HFs were obtained from patients undergoing routine micrograft transplantation and were cultured for 5 days in Dulbecco’s modified Eagles Medium, supplemented with different amounts of vitamin B12. Hair shaft elongation (HSE) of the isolated HFs as well as quantitative changes of mRNA for beta-catenin, glykogensynthase kinase-3 (GSK-3) and TCF/Lef-1 in HF cells were determined. Results: In vitro HSE demonstrated a dose dependent induction of HSE after stimulation with 2.5 ug/ml and 25 ug/ml vitamin B12 (6.2 +/- 2.1% and 15.4 +/- 3.8% respectively). A dose dependent induction of beta-catenin-mRNA could be demonstrated in cultured HFs after stimulation with 2.5 ug/ml and 25 ug/ml vitamin B12 (fold change compared to DMEM: 9.5 +/- 2.7, p < 0.05 and 23.1 +/- 7.4, p < 0.01; respectively). Concomitantly the amounts of GSK-3 were significantly reduced after stimulation with 25 ug/ml vitamin B12 (fold change compared to DMEM: 0.76 +/- 0.12, p < 0.05). Conclusions: Our data demonstrate a hair growth promoting effect of vitamin B12 in vitro. This effect is accompanied by the modulation of intracellular signal transduction molecules of the wnt-pathway and might promote hair growth after micrograft transplantation.

good combination with minoxidil

14. Topical administration of cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12) showed suppression of potassium channel inhibitor (tolbutamide) and induction of murine hair anagen phase & synergistic effect with minoxidil.

Nok-Hyun Park, Skin Research Team, Amore Pacific Corporation R&D Center, South Korea.
Vitamin B12 is well known to be important for growth, cell reproduction, blood formation, and protein & tissue synthesis. Cyanocobalamin and hydroxocobalamin acetate are used to treat pernicious anemia, nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency, malabsorption of vitamin B12, and other cases of vitamin B12 deficiency.
We investigated the active effect of vitaminB12 on NIH3T3 fibroblast in ATP-sensitive potassium channel-dependent fashion and on murine anagen indution. The in vitro effects of established potassium channel openers (minoxidil) and inhibitors (tolbutamide), plus vitamin B12 were indirectly assessed on NIH3T3 fibroblast in the absence of aminoglycoside antibiotics & phenol red, and 5% fetal bovine serum-supplemented medium. Tolbutamide inhibited 28% proliferation of NH3T3 fibroblast at 2.5mM concentration as reported previously. When minoxidil & cyanocobalamin was treated to the fibroblast with 2.5mM tolbutamide, growth inhibition of NIH3T3 fibroblast was suppressed 51.49% by 100uM minoxidil 38.39% by 1uM cyanocobalamin, respectively. Two topical preparations of single dose of minoxidil (1%) and cyanocobalamin (0.03%) were topically administered with vehicle (ethanol/ propylene glycol/ water= 3/ 2/ 5) on clipped dorsal area of female telogen phase C57bl/6. The grown hair weights of topical 1% minoxidil preparation (113.14¡¾11.02mg, P<0.001) and 0.03% cyanocobalamin (59.56¡¾13.88mg, P<0.05) increased significantly than that of vehicle (18.47¡¾4.68mg). When topically administered in mixed preparations (0.5% minoxidil and 0.03% cyanocobalamin), the more grown hair weight (87.00¡¾8.39mg, P<0.03 t-test with 0.05% minoxidil) by mixed preparation was observed compared to those of single 0.5% minoxidil preparation (44.33¡¾14.96mg) & of vehicle preparation (22.13¡¾13.86mg). Topical cyanocobalamin was applied to atopic dermatitis and psoriasis in previous study; our new topical trial of vitamin B12 will be helpful treatment for alopecia as a single dose or coadministraition with minoxidil though the precise mechanism was not elucidated.

and another one

Leontopodium alpinum (Edelweiss) extract activates wnt/β-catenin signaling, induces anagen, and increases hair follicle formation in skin reconstitution assays

SN Kim1, AR Kim1, PJ Park2, Y Zheng3, G Cotsarelis3 and WS Park1 1Advanced Hair Research Laboratory, AMOREPACIFIC Corp. R&D Center, Gyeonggi-do, Republic of Korea; 2Bioscience Research Institute, AMOREPACIFIC Corp. R&D Center, Gyeonggi-do, Republic of Korea and 3Perelman School of Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

Wnt/β-catenin signaling has an important role in many developmental processes, including hair follicle morphogenesis and stem cell differentiation. Recently, wnt/β-catenin signaling has also been revealed as a crucial factor of hair follicle regeneration in adult skin. In search of novel hair growth-stimulating agents, hundreds of plant extracts were screened for wnt/β-catenin signaling activation using a TOP Flash reporter assay. The generated candidates were also examined on the expression and translocation of β-catenin and phosphorylation of GSK3β using immunocytochemical and immunoblot analyses. We finally observed the anagen induction at the dorsal skins of 7-week-old C57BL/6 mice with topical application, and hair follicle formation in skin reconstitution assays with silicone chamber. We found that the extract of Leontopodium alpinum (Edelweiss) with cold-water extraction method significantly stimulated the transcriptional activity of TOP Flash. Edelweiss also induced the expression and nuclear translocation of β-catenin in cultured human dermal papilla cells, and enhanced the phosphorylation of GSK3β. We further observed earlier conversion of telogen-to-anagen phase on the dorsal skins of C57BL/6 mice applied with Edelweiss extract compared with nontreated controls (n=9). Furthermore, in preliminary studies (n=4) using reconstitution assays, we demonstrated that the Edelweiss extract added to isolated neonatal mouse dermal and epidermal cell mixtures, which were then injected into the back skin of nude mouse in a silicone chamber, resulting in skin with significantly greater numbers of hair follicles compared with control nontreated mixtures. Our results suggest that the Edelweiss extract activates the wnt/β-catenin signaling pathway and induces hair growth and new hair follicle generation in reconstitution assays. These preliminary findings suggest that additional experiments are warranted to test the effects of the Edelweiss extract on hair growth.

All these in a liposomal ceramide solution.

I already use b12 after wounding for the last 2 weeks only. Nothing to report, but i go only with a 0.75 roller for the last 3 months, before the indian study published.
I have only gain some density.
I know it is not enough, but i also have and 1.5mm DR and a dermapen 2.0mm.
I will use them only when i am sure for everything i am doing and i need to know exactly what to apply in my head after and why. There is no reason to slice my scalp aimlessly.

And one more thing.
My wife have a strap for her hair, i used it once, around my head. Tight. That way, by pressing the sides, it helps my upper scalp skin goes up and it was smoother and softer. Then i use the dermapen and it went deep...really deep. The whole 2mm needles went all the way down, without much pain. Of course, more blood came in that area because of the sides pressing.
Maybe something for using in the future if we need to go deeper. I don't know, i just mention it.

 

[Kirby]

OK guys, I belatedly have all the gear assembled, now how should I go about this?


Sterilise roller thoroughly, shower and wash hair, slap on the Betadine, roll until lightly bleeding?


How long should I leave the Betadine on before rolling? I'm very concerned about the Betadine usage, as it smells terrible, had to be imported (isn't available in the UK) and I didn't want to harm myself using it incorrectly.

I'm sure that I'll get the hang of this, just as I have with my daily minoxidil application, but I'm one of those people who finds starting something new quite difficult...

 

[DesperateOne]

Very informative post, I had no idea b-12 induced wnt-bcatenin pathways, (I will update the semen thread with this later, as semen is very high in b12 also the strap idea might be pure genius, I haven't tried it yet, but imagining it, I feel like it will reduce the pain just by slightly pulling the skin away from the scalp, interesting.


@odabalk: I do care about existing hair, in fact I use internal anti androgens everyday, even days I wound my scalp (no I don't use finasteride or any other man made chemical that only blocks a single pathway to 5ar->dht). What I am not for is dump a topical anti-androgen into my wounded scalp.

@squeegee: I never claim to know it all, in fact I make mistakes in posts often and I correct them when I see it, I almost always post link to stuff I am talking about and ask people to verify the claims, I don't claim anything about studies or their results, we post them and we debate like civilized people, that's what forums are for, when people post something, you can't just yell or curse at them every time, nobody here owes sh*it to you, you don't feed them, you don't pay their bills, so why do you think you can treat people like dirt and keep using f words and denigrating sentences... anyway I don't know why i am even replying to you anymore.

So what anti androgens are you using the ? Maybe that's why I am shedding, finasteride only block one type

 

[Sparky4444]

...one good thing about all this stabbing is that when it comes time for the big hair transplant, that will be a walk in the park -- hell, we even have time to get used t post-op look!!

..This is this morning...this will be a lot redder than the previous stabbings

 

[squeegee]

...one good thing about all this stabbing is that when it comes time for the big hair transplant, that will be a walk in the park -- hell, we even have time to get used t post-op look!!

..This is this morning...this will be a lot redder than the previous stabbings

awesome!

 

[closetmetrosexual]

My wife have a strap for her hair, i used it once, around my head. Tight. That way, by pressing the sides, it helps my upper scalp skin goes up and it was smoother and softer. Then i use the dermapen and it went deep...really deep. The whole 2mm needles went all the way down, without much pain. Of course, more blood came in that area because of the sides pressing.
Maybe something for using in the future if we need to go deeper. I don't know, i just mention it.

Do you mean sort of 'lifting' your top scalp by use of this strap?

Some people use a strap to stretch the muscles holding the galea (thereby relaxing these muscles, so the galea sits more loosely).
I will try this in a few weeks, once I've made a strap that works.

It sort of makes sense. I think the majority of pain I feel when I roll, is the needles hitting whatever is deep down - not the upper most skin layer.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm hitting raw bone up there. :unsure:

 

[TheShopKeeper]

I received my 1.5mm roller today and gave my scalp a good roll. One thing I noticed is that rolling with a 1.5mm was so much less painful and smoother than a 1mm.

This could either be due to a better derma roller (ZTGS) or that each of our scalps are different and we need to find the right length. My scalp is now properly full of blood spots with less effort.

 

[TNTS]

Do you mean sort of 'lifting' your top scalp by use of this strap?

Some people use a strap to stretch the muscles holding the galea (thereby relaxing these muscles, so the galea sits more loosely).
I will try this in a few weeks, once I've made a strap that works.

It sort of makes sense. I think the majority of pain I feel when I roll, is the needles hitting whatever is deep down - not the upper most skin layer.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm hitting raw bone up there. :unsure:

It is elastic, adjustable strap. Almost like this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151080103568?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


i pass it around my head and tight as much as i can handle.
Then, with my palms i push the skin for going upward. The strap helps the skin to stay there. Then i use the dermapen.


Is some spots the skin create bumps or wrinkles as long as the strap keep the skin up. So maybe you lose that spots from wounding, or not wounding enough.
The solution to this i guess is to loosen the strap and tight it again from a different angle for covering all the skin spots .

As i said, i have use this only once, so i am not so sure if is gonna be beneficial.

 

[closetmetrosexual]

I received my 1.5mm roller today and gave my scalp a good roll. One thing I noticed is that rolling with a 1.5mm was so much less painful and smoother than a 1mm.

This could either be due to a better derma roller (ZTGS) or that each of our scalps are different and we need to find the right length.

Or that your new roller has more needles than your 1.0mm has.
More needles = less pain.

- - - Updated - - -

It is elastic, adjustable strap. Almost like this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151080103568?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


i pass it around my head and tight as much as i can handle.
Then, with my palms i push the skin for going upward. The strap helps the skin to stay there. Then i use the dermapen.


Is some spots the skin create bumps or wrinkles as long as the strap keep the skin up. So maybe you lose that spots from wounding, or not wounding enough.
The solution to this i guess is to loosen the strap and tight it again from a different angle for covering all the skin spots .

As i said, i have use this only once, so i am not so sure if is gonna be beneficial.

Thanks.

I will try this.
Anything to minimise suffering through this torture. :salut:

 

[Sparky4444]

after shower and shampoo...big time more RED the next day then the previous two...Japanese Mint Oil helped A LOT after letting it get in for more time before stabbing...

tried to upload image but froze..anyways...we'll see now the next few stabbings if any sproutlings...

 

[squeegee]

hellouser, you see, there is no mention of depth, that's my problem to picking arbitrary depths and deducing we need to go deep, we just don't know how deep. I have read and re-read everything I can find on follica, related to depth, look here from their own recent patent:

https://www.google.com/patents/US8252749



1 um = 0.001 mm, so, they are describing various ways, various depth to achieve results. There are 6 bullet points describing depth of wound, 4 out of the 6 ways described has a depth below 800 um = 0.8 mm, the last two mention depth between 2 to 7mm. User prettyFly on that other forum used 0.5mm, this falls within the range of the first 4 bullet points above. Do you believe sincerely believe prettyFly got new hair growth? I personally do. Therefore I do no believe going way deep has more merits.

- - - Updated - - -

The last bullet point is what likely happened to the BBQ guy, and that's what some people want to try and achieve here, but you can't simply do this with a dermaroller, it is impossible. You either need a chemical agent, burn your scalp like he did, or have a surgeon perform this on you with a scalpel. Let's be realistic

Deep is the only way to go. Period. Yale's research is right on the money. No subcutaneous fat, no hair growth.

Yale researchers have discovered the source of signals that trigger hair growth, an insight that may lead to new treatments for baldness.
The researchers identified stem cells within the skin's fatty layer and showed that molecular signals from these cells were necessary to spur hair growth in mice, according to research published in the Sept. 2 issue of the journal Cell.
"If we can get these fat cells in the skin to talk to the dormant stem cells at the base of hair follicles, we might be able to get hair to grow again," said Valerie Horsley, assistant professor of molecular, cellular and developmental biology and senior author of the paper.
Men with male pattern baldness still have stem cells in follicle roots but these stem cells lose the ability to jump-start hair regeneration. Scientists have known that these follicle stem cells need signals from within the skin to grow hair, but the source of those signals has been unclear.
Horsley's team observed that when hair dies, the layer of fat in the scalp that comprises most of the skin's thickness shrinks. When hair growth begins, the fat layer expands in a process called adipogenesis. Researchers found that a type of stem cell involved in creation of new fat cells — adipose precursor cells — was required for hair regeneration in mice. They also found these cells produce molecules called PDGF (platelet derived growth factors), which are necessary to produce hair growth.
Horsley's lab is trying to identify other signals produced by adipose precursor stem cells that may play a role in regulating hair growth. She also wants to know whether these same signals are required for human hair growth.
Other authors from Yale are lead author Eric Festa, Jackie Fretz, Ryan Berry, Barbara Schmidt, Matthew Rodeheffer and Mark Horowitz.

The work was funded by the National Institutes of Health and the Connecticut Stem Cell Research Program.

http://www.yalescientific.org/2011/11/investigating-stem-cells-that-stimulate-hair-growth/

Bald scalp in men with androgenetic alopecia retains hair follicle stem cells but lacks CD200-rich and CD34-positive hair follicle progenitor cells


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3026732/

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and that Jaguar is a total bad ***!!
[video=youtube;DBNYwxDZ_pA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBNYwxDZ_pA[/video]

 

[closetmetrosexual]

Today I rolled my third time.
I would say today was the first time I did it properly. Today I drew blood all over.

I used Dr. Numb cream, which was extremely disappointing.
Perhaps I did not use enough cream. But it did not numb the skin noticeably.
I'd say it numbed the skin about 5-10% more than without the cream. Absolutely rubbish, considering how expensive this cream is.

In two weeks, I will do a much thicker layer. Maybe that will help. But that will mean I'll use half a tube.

Ah well, I'm hoping the scalp-strap trick will be enough. Screw the cream.

 

[squeegee]

I want to stimulate adipose subcutaneous fat tissue regeneration by derma-rolling. This is why I am using a 3.0mm nowadays. No subcutaneous fat, no hair cycles just dormant follicles.

Yale University scientists have discovered that cells from the fat layer in the skin of mice contribute to the stimulation of hair follicles. An article by ABC News quotes the lead researcher, Valerie Horsley, saying, “The fat cells are important for hair growth. If they’re not there, the hair won’t grow

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/new...an-important-step-in-understanding-hair-loss/

Subcutaneous fat is the fatty or adipose tissue lying directly under the skin layers. Subcutaneous translates to "under the skin." It contains not only fatty tissues but also blood vessels, which supply the skin with oxygen, and nerves.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-subcutaneous-fat.htm

 

[super]

Just giving my 2 cents here. I am having very great results and i know my doctors dermaroller is far from 3mm. I will ask them when i go there (i will try to go tuesday or thursday), but i am pretty sure it isn't bigger than 1.5mm

Just talking about my personal experience.

 

[squeegee]

Just giving my 2 cents here. I am having very great results and i know my doctors dermaroller is far from 3mm. I will ask them when i go there (i will try to go tuesday or thursday), but i am pretty sure it isn't bigger than 1.5mm

Just talking about my personal experience.

See according to the study 1.5mm equal great results which is good. But I want better than great results. I am using a 3.0mm but I don't go 3mm all the way in everywhere on my scalp... I also feels that some people using the 1.5mm push on it like a mofo which it translates to a deeper rolling.. What is the right size anyways? So many factors..Everybody on here has different skin thickness, different haircuts and uses the derma roller differently with different sizes.. All we know is that 1.5mm is a good baseline.

 

[super]

I know. I understand all that. I am just talking about my experience. I know something around 1.5 is safe and works. More than that i have no idea. It can be equal, even better or it could have some bad side effect. I just don't have any idea.

 

[RisingFist]

You guys were talking about EGFR earlier right? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24071938 I found this study, gave it a quick read but it sounds like something not worth experimenting with as it could be dangerous.

 

[squeegee]

If wounding could simply restore fat cells under balding scalp, do you think they won't be smart enough to state so, they are yale researchers. I completely understand what you said, but like I said earlier it is not possible by dermarolling, did you even read what I said earlier, the presence of wnt will guarantee that this doesn't happen, and guess what is released after wounding by your dermaroller? wingless ints What you are trying to achieve isn't possible by wounding, period. In fact, you are achieving the opposite, meaning, you are prevent adipogenesis to occur under your scalp. No matter how you slice it, it isn't happening. You are only deluding yourself. Whatever result you or anyone gets from butchering their scalp isn't because of any subcutaneous fat regeneration or other nonsense like that, it is because of wnt induced by wounding in the hair follicles adjacent to the wound egde and b-catenin signaling resulting from minoxidil, simple.

The loss of subcutaneous fat deposits contributes to the development of wrinkles and this is why a derma roller is used to fight aging in the first place. The subcutaneous fat cells shrink and are unable to support the weakening dermal layer above it. This makes wrinkles and sagging skin more evident. They also uses the derma roller for cellulite to restructure subcutaneous fat.

 

[theRA]

hey squeegee, you have some photo documentation of the results? any new terminal hair or just velus?