New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[Mach]

What are you using for a Growth stimulant/repair? Damage then repair. I have the 1.5 mm but IMO we might need to go deeper so blood will go to the follicle from the damaged area, not sure if a 1.5 will do the trick. I'm sure Follica did their homework in the study.

Anyway this is what i'm using and in the order, I would say you have an hour TOPS to get supplements to the wounded area.
-White Willow bark - Thin blood some
-Shower - to loosen/soften skin
-Roll like a motherf**** 1.5 mm Sunday evenings (Head is still tender clear into Friday morning)
-Drink a cocktail of the following with lots of water (I'll do this the next morning as well)
***BCAA 1 tablespoon (might be over kill)
***Glutamine 1 Tablespoon (might be over kill)
***Dextrose 2 Tablespoon
-Biotin5000 mcg, MSM 2000mg, Zinc 30mg (I try to take these every night. Every 3rd week I'll take a week off. The body will adapt, I don't know if this makes a difference, you don't know till you stop)

Apply Coconut oil to scalp

I'm looking to added, Niacin & L-Carnitine soon.

I'm also using finasteride, minoxidil (24 hours after wounding twice a day, Foam in the morning, liquid at night) and Nizoral M, W, F (looking to jump to 2% on Mondays after rolling) I started using Hair Cycle Shampoo & conditioner from Dr. Cole on off days.

Anyway that's my 2 cents. I won't be posting unless I see results. I'm to busy to filter through another 16 pages but good stuff guys!

 

[odalbak]

Mach,

What does coconut oil do exactly in the context of scalp wounding?

 

[squeegee]

I got another roller today 0.25 mm. Can barely feel anything even with apply pressure.Head turns red after a lot of rolling.. I will add this prior to any topical but still go on with 2.5 mm every Friday and bleed like a butchered goat.

 

[odalbak]

Squeegee, how long will you wait between each deep dermarolling?

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Squeegee, how long will you wait between each deep dermarolling?

 

[hellouser]

I've been reading more about the dermarolling method in regards to the wounding theory from follica, I think theres a lot more to explore but I think it NEEDS to be pointed out that we're very, VERY close to finally cracking it. We just need to keep pushing experimentation with wounding of all sorts of devices. Dermarolling with some wounding with 1.5mm microneedles most likely wont get us anywhere near NW0 but it should help. I think we need to wound more. One member on another forum pointed out this:

For Follica style wounding you need a wound that is deep enough to remove the epidermis and reach the dermis. It has to large enough so that it can't close on itself. The skin faces a decision, "Do I become a follicle or do I become skin?". By promoting the correct molecular signals, the idea is that we can push the intrafollicular epithelial stem cells (Not HF bulge cells btw). Two are known to upregulate this process - Wnt and FGF9.

Which is more or less what mitosis is: cell splitting, but not actually splitting cells in half, but the cells actually replicate themselves. If you cut yourself, cells in your skin should multiply to cover up the damaged area. But here's the problem: we're not doing enough of that at the follicle level!! All we're doing is making small little pricks. I've got a feeling that we need to TRICK our body into making it think it needs to create skin *AND* follicles. Those follicles will probably only replicate where existing terminal hairs are, going back to my observation that hair regrowth always happens in areas closer to existing follicles as those follicles that produce terminal hairs can emit split cells that can replicate their own hair. Which perhaps its why a bald spot is NEVER filled in completely on any treatment, but only tightened up.

I'm sure whatever growth factors we throw at the wounded area will help this, for example the growth factors lilpauly has mentioned from Kane, but safety is key. I'm going to watch *very closely* what happens with the guys trialing this... this could be some SERIOUS sh*t finally.

This is kind of, KIND OF more exciting than Aderans news before they got their funding pulled.

 

[squeegee]

Welcome to the internet again. How long before someone on those forums really injures himself or get an infection?

Welcome to the internet again. Always have a pessimist guy that lives in fear. 1.5mm or 2.50mm won't get you injured lol. I shave my big face every morning and probably bleed as well every morning.. Am I dead? Never had an infectious face as well. Common sense.. start with a smaller size to get the idea of it then go bigger if you want.. clean it before and after use in rubbing alcohol. Makes sure your scalp is clean. WOW...basic knowledge there just like wiping your ***. Did they report any infections or injuries in the study? http://www.ijtrichology.com/article...lume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;aulast=Dhurat no, just amazing results for 12 weeks.

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I've been reading more about the dermarolling method in regards to the wounding theory from follica, I think theres a lot more to explore but I think it NEEDS to be pointed out that we're very, VERY close to finally cracking it. We just need to keep pushing experimentation with wounding of all sorts of devices. Dermarolling with some wounding with 1.5mm microneedles most likely wont get us anywhere near NW0 but it should help. I think we need to wound more. One member on another forum pointed out this:



Which is more or less what mitosis is: cell splitting, but not actually splitting cells in half, but the cells actually replicate themselves. If you cut yourself, cells in your skin should multiply to cover up the damaged area. But here's the problem: we're not doing enough of that at the follicle level!! All we're doing is making small little pricks. I've got a feeling that we need to TRICK our body into making it think it needs to create skin *AND* follicles. Those follicles will probably only replicate where existing terminal hairs are, going back to my observation that hair regrowth always happens in areas closer to existing follicles as those follicles that produce terminal hairs can emit split cells that can replicate their own hair. Which perhaps its why a bald spot is NEVER filled in completely on any treatment, but only tightened up.

I'm sure whatever growth factors we throw at the wounded area will help this, for example the growth factors lilpauly has mentioned from Kane, but safety is key. I'm going to watch *very closely* what happens with the guys trialing this... this could be some SERIOUS sh*t finally.

This is kind of, KIND OF more exciting than Aderans news before they got their funding pulled.

This is why I will go 2.50mm next time. What I like about the derma roller , there is no huge gap where the skin is wounded. It is really safe and you heal up friggin fast.

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Squeegee, how long will you wait between each deep dermarolling?

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Squeegee, how long will you wait between each deep dermarolling?

twice a day with the .25mm before topical application.

 

[hellouser]

The study used 1,5 mm so people should stick to that length. Mine will arrive this week.

I'm just not comfortable reading things like "We just need to keep pushing experimentation with wounding of all sorts of devices".

Dismissing trial and error especially when trying to replicate follica's method without following THEIR protocol won't get us very far. Follica is wounding heavily, we should attempt that as well (carefully).

 

[squeegee]

The study used 1,5 mm so people should stick to that length. Mine will arrive this week.

I'm just not comfortable reading things like "We just need to keep pushing experimentation with wounding of all sorts of devices".

I think Follica is a one shot deal. You go there. they injured the **** out of your head, get the recovery cream and **** and this is it. Dermal roller is more progressive. 2.50mm is 1 mm bigger than 1.5.. check a ruler.. 1 mm is not big of a deal.

 

[odalbak]

I think it's good to also have guys who decide to play it safe like FredtheBelgian. That will give us a wider view about the possibilities of wounding. Otherwise we might end up mutilating our scalp like beasts for possibly no better results.

Those follicles will probably only replicate where existing terminal hairs are, going back to my observation that hair regrowth always happens in areas closer to existing follicles as those follicles that produce terminal hairs can emit split cells that can replicate their own hair. Which perhaps its why a bald spot is NEVER filled in completely on any treatment, but only tightened up.

On the other hand if I follow your thought logically, a bald spot could be filled but only very gradually. You just need to extend little by little the zone containing terminal hairs. It could take a few years but I don't see why it wouldn't happen if dermarolling creates every time a few terminal hairs on surrounding areas. It's only totally bald guys who could have a hard time. This being said if you look at the close up pictures of PrettyFly83 on BTT forum, he IS getting lots of new hairs everywhere on his bald spots, and just after 2.5 months, and only with the 0.5 roller !!!!!!!

 

[bornthisway]

As far as dermarolling, the concern is too little may have no effect (based on size, duration/frequency) and too much may have an unintended negative result. Already it appears 0.5mm is enough for results based on what odalbak just said about the BTT user, and the study used 1.5mm -- so I'd consider this a pretty safe range (0.5-1.5mm). Is deeper better or can it be detrimental? I know the length differences may seem negligible but is that really going to be the case with respect to results? (have not read the study or read into the latest micro-needling craze atm)

 

[Chromeo]

That's why it's a good thing to have people willing to try out different lengths...otherwise we'd all just be sitting around wondering "What if...?"

I think we should be thankful that these people are willing to go the extra mile to find out and post their results. It can be helpful for the rest of us and help build a greater understanding of the most efficient way to do this. Surely there are already enough of us following the method put forward in the study.

 

[odalbak]

If the process is about creating new hair follicles I don't see the point of hurrying. If the optimal schedule (it could depend on each individual) is for instance every 15 days with strong rolling using 1.5mm depth, people doing it every 7 days or every 21 days would slow down the process a bit but would probably get the same result eventually anyway. Logically.

 

[hellouser]

If the process is about creating new hair follicles I don't see the point of hurrying. If the optimal schedule (it could depend on each individual) is for instance every 15 days with strong rolling using 1.5mm depth, people doing it every 7 days or every 21 days would slow down the process a bit but would probably get the same result eventually anyway. Logically.

There are so many variables that we don't yet know, I guess we really have to make a concerted group effort with everyone taking as different an approach as possible. I feel as though that even small wounding could create new follicle if by the chance that the body produces even a single follicle, thus I think you could be right that it just takes many repeated tries to get to a desired point of hair regrowth.

 

[squeegee]

If the process is about creating new hair follicles I don't see the point of hurrying. If the optimal schedule (it could depend on each individual) is for instance every 15 days with strong rolling using 1.5mm depth, people doing it every 7 days or every 21 days would slow down the process a bit but would probably get the same result eventually anyway. Logically.

You guys should shift your focus on the scalp itself, not the follicles.. Follicle are still there but their environment stop the progenitor cells to do their job. This is why bleeding and deep is good. Derma rolling is not new.. but the last study is proving that deeper once a week can you get results and that is some good ****.

 

[Kirby]

Serious general question: how do we know this study, that has triggered so much activity on the various forums, is legit, and how come people expect huge success with dermarolling when it was tried before so many times with nothing conclusive? (That's in the spirit of constructive scepticism rather than pessimism.)

That said... Yeah, I'll think I will be buying myself a dermaroller next week. I'll start off on 0.5mm and work my way 'up' later. Any recommendations welcome.

 

[odalbak]

how come people expect huge success with dermarolling when it was tried before so many times with nothing conclusive?

Because as far as we know nobody used a 1.5mm dermaroller for 4 months with a combination of minoxidil like they did in that study. PrettyFly83, the only person who started the concept several months before the release of the study, is getting excellent results. And it is with 0.5mm only.



But you're right, the conclusion of that study has to be confirmed now. On our scalps.

 

[supermusic]

I wonder what the consequences could have on the skin cause long-term periodic damage. We all know that skin cells have memory and other consequences that may occur as the source erythema in sunburn.

 

[hellouser]

princessRambo:

that cal guy also said this:

posted by cal, 02.09.2008, 02:46For what it's worth, I'm getting near to calling my own experimenting so far as a failure.

I definitely regrew from the dermabrasion (possibly even a little more than abrasion effects alone), but I don't see enough to think I've hit on the Folica procedure yet.




The reason I point this out here is that there were a few places where I inhibited the EGF-R during the wounding days, not just after.

It lends me to think that the anti-inflammatory part of the process is probably a very necessary thing. If the inflammation issue really wasn't relevant then I should have had a lot more growth by now.


(Even if I didn't do the rest of it exactly right either, I varied things all over. Time of wounding, depth of wound, etc. I should have sprouted SOMEWHERE if I had all the primary drug bases covered by using the EGF-R drug alone.)

 

[hellouser]

hellouser: Yeah I think that with pgd2 being so high in balding area of the scalp, a key element to optimize regrow would be an anti-inflammatory post wounding, but not necessarily the first couple of day after because that is when wnt, vegf, igf and other growth factors do their magic and it wouldn't be wise to interfere with those. I feel that, as soon as you think that your scalp is back to normal color, feels good and isn't "feeling" inflamed anymore, you could start throwing the kitchen sink topical arsenal you have until the next cycle, all the while soaking it with minoxidil throughout...

I'm tempted to go balls out, do deep wounding/dermabrasion, buy a synthetic form of FGF-9 and inject it post wounding.

 

[Helios]

I'm tempted to go balls out, do deep wounding/dermabrasion, buy a synthetic form of FGF-9 and inject it post wounding.

I've also been looking for FGF-9, but than i found this:

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]Samples are stable for up to twelve months from date of receipt at -70℃[/FONT][/COLOR]

-70°C is a bit to much for a freezer. You probably can hold it for a short time with some dry ice, but that's it.