New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

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princessRambo

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@jorged: stem cells are activated by the adipocytes as the yell study pointed out.


Since the derma-roller thread has become a troll fest of broscience and non contextual studies popping everywhere to make a point that isn't relevant to hair growth, I thought I would clear up a confusion between hair regeneration and de-novo hair formation also known as fair follicle neo genesis.

In an layman's term the difference is this: It's like a chicken and eggs analogy.

It was though we were born with a limited about of hair follicles. Before going further, people should realize the hair follicle is not the hair we talk about in forums, what we see bursting through the epidermis is the hair shaft, and not the hair follicle itself, it is only a structure of the follicle. The follicle itself is an amazingly complex mini organ, people tend to think of hair follicle as a cell, but it is not, it is a complex organ comprising many structures, including, the dermal papilla, sebaceous gland, bulge region containing stem cells for regeneration, etc. What we see is the shaft. That said. Let's go back to the chicken and egg analogy. It was previously thought that we were born with a limited numbers of these hair follicles/mini organs at birth. These follicles are self sustaining, they contain a reproductive system to ultimately regenerate the hair shaft through morphogenesis using stem cells in the bulge area of the mini organ (follicle).

Here is a description of the process that takes place before neo-genesis.
Developmental origins of dermal papilla cells. The precursor of the hair follicle is a local thickening, also known as placode, of the embryonic epidermis, which is detectable at embryonic day 14.5 (E14.5) of mouse development. Soon after, a local condensation (dermal condensate) of fibroblasts forms beneath the placode. Reciprocal signalling between the condensate and the placode leads to proliferation of the overlying epithelium and downward extension of the new follicle into the dermis (Millar, 2002; Schneider et al., 2009; Ohyama et al., 2010; Yang and Cotsarelis, 2010). After the initial downward growth, the epithelial cells envelope the dermalcondensate, thereby forming the mature DP. The DP then instructs the surrounding epithelial cells, now called matrix cells, to proliferate, move upward and differentiate into the multiple layers of the outgrowing hair shaft and the channel surrounding the hair shaft, called the inner root sheath (Millar, 2002; Schneider et al., 2009).

Hair regeneration on the other hand is highly dependent of existing stem cells in the bulge area of the already existing follicle.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1534580705004259

The regeneration of the skin and its appendages is thought to occur by the regulated activation of a dedicated stem cell population. A population of cells in the bulge region of the hair follicle has been identified as the putative stem cell of both the follicle and the interfollicular epidermis. While this assertion is supported by a variety of surrogate assays, there has been no direct confirmation of the normal contribution of these cells to the regeneration of structures other than the cycling portion of the hair follicle. Here, we report lineage analysis revealing that the follicular epithelium is derived from cells in the epidermal placode that expressSonic hedgehog. This analysis also demonstrates that the stem cells resident in the follicular bulge that regenerate the follicle are neither the stem cells of the epidermis nor the source of the stem cells of the epidermis in the absence of trauma.

Essentially it was thought before that when the chicken loses her ability to give eggs (hair shaft), you go bald. Recently it was found that we can in fact create new chicken or hair follicle mini organs through wound healing and activation of certain growth factors when timed perfectly. This is an incredibly complex process that doesn't occur in human without endogenously introducing certain growth factors, timed perfectly. A simple way to look at it is this: assume you lose a limb, in regeneration, you regenerate a new limb. In neogenesis, you yourself are created anew. Two very distinct things.

So simply dermarolling or wounding does not induce neogenesis, there isn't a single study supporting such thing.

The yale study found that it was possible even after the hair follicle stem cells went dormant, it was possible to reactivate the dormant stem cells from fat tissues below the hair follicle. This again is regeneration and not neogenesis. The problem is that fat tissues growth is relative to hair growth. In other words, when hair enters into anagen, adipogenesis occurs and fat tissues expend, when hair enters into telogen, fat tissues shrink. This is one of reason why in balding scalp, where we have an insane amount hair in premature telogen, the skin feels so thin compared to the hairy areas.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3298746/

Using histological and functional analysis of cell populations of the adipocyte lineage in the skin, we identify a dynamic process of adipogenesis that parallels the activation of hair follicle stem cells. Functional analysis of adipocyte lineage cells in mice with defects in adipogenesis and in transplantation experiments revealed that immature adipocyte cells are necessary and sufficient to drive follicular stem cell activation.

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In other news, I think I will make full recovery by Christmas the way my hair is growing, some relatives I haven't seen since last Christmas will likely pull my hair thinking I am wearing a wig :woot:
 

LayZ

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I'm new, so I can't post links til a mod approves it.

Some may find this worth reading.

Characterization of Microchannels Created by Metal Microneedles: Formation and Closure

Copy and google. It'll clear up some misconceptions.
 

Jorged

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@PrincessRambo

Thanks for your patience and explaining the difference between neo genesis and regeneration in an easy way for dummies. So basically what we can only expect from dermarolling + minoxidil is that existing but invisible hair might grow terminal.

Well, that's at least enough for me to keep trialing this experiment till at least the end of january next year and see how much
miniaturized (or invisible) hair I can grow back terminal.

Thanks again :)
 

squeegee

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Princess.. maybe dermarollin doesn't bring neogenesis... But who said that we need neogenesis to get results? The biopsies and numerous studies clearly pointing out the dermal fibrosis factor in Androgen Alopecia. I have incredible results on my bald temples since I added the derma roller..I've been using minoxidil for the last couple years with no growth whatsoever on the temples.. Hair are also sprouting everywhere like no tomorrow. People having results with glycolic peels.. on IH.. The BBQ old man recovered from his lost without any add-on or topical growth factors.. I keep my mind open even If think I seen it all. Also, everybody on here still have their follicles remaining.

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I'm new, so I can't post links til a mod approves it.

Some may find this worth reading.

Characterization of Microchannels Created by Metal Microneedles: Formation and Closure

Copy and google. It'll clear up some misconceptions.



Characterization of microchannels created by metal microneedles: formation and closure.

Kalluri H, Kolli CS, Banga AK.
Source

Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences, College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences, Mercer University, Atlanta, Georgia 30341, USA.

Abstract

Transdermal delivery of therapeutic agents for cosmetic therapy is limited to small and lipophilic molecules by the stratum corneum barrier. Microneedle technology overcomes this barrier and offers a minimally invasive and painless route of administration. DermaRoller(®), a commercially available handheld device, has metal microneedles embedded on its surface which offers a means of microporation. We have characterized the microneedles and the microchannels created by these microneedles in a hairless rat model, using models with 370 and 770 μm long microneedles. Scanning electron microscopy was employed to study the geometry and dimensions of the metal microneedles. Dye binding studies, histological sectioning, and confocal microscopy were performed to characterize the created microchannels. Recovery of skin barrier function after poration was studied via transepidermal water loss (TEWL) measurements, and direct observation of the pore closure process was investigated via calcein imaging. Characterization studies indicate that 770 μm long metal microneedles with an average base width of 140 μm and a sharp tip with a radius of 4 μm effectively created microchannels in the skin with an average depth of 152.5 ± 9.6 μm and a surface diameter of 70.7 ± 9.9 μm. TEWL measurements indicated that skin regains it barrier function around 4 to 5 h after poration, for both 370 and 770 μm microneedles. However, direct observation of pore closure, by calcein imaging, indicated that pores closed by 12 h for 370 μm microneedles and by 18 h for 770 μm microneedles. Pore closure can be further delayed significantly under occluded conditions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21732220
 

princessRambo

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Princess.. maybe dermarollin doesn't bring neogenesis... But who said that we need neogenesis to get results?

Exactly!! And I kept repeating that what we get from dermarolling might be all that is needed. I just interjected that wounding + minoxidil simply isn't enough for WIHN, you either need fgf9 or an incredible amount of pge2 timed perfectly. But yes, we don't need it if we can revert the fate of all those zombie hairs :).


Interesting...
Alternatively, application of agents such as cox-inhibitors has also been reported to prolong pore closure for up to 7 days in guinea pigs (32). This appealing flexible nature of microneedle technology has prominent implications for drug delivery as it offers the possibility of a multi-day wear patch which is effective enough to deliver drugs over a period of days and at the same time
 
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karankaran

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I wonder how will the device that removes 7 MM OF SKIN FROM FOLLICA TURN OUT...Here is another AWESOME FIND which shows that hydrogel can grow new skin and even NEW HAIR FOLLICLES...but ofcourse the damage should be EQUIVALENT TO A THIRD DEGREE BURN .... http://www.gizmag.com/hydrogel-skin-third-degree-burns/20876/...

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It is also mentioned that hydrogel can signal stem cells - what if we use HYDROGEL ON SCALP AFTER DERMA WOUNDING and even though the wound is not as DEEP , but still we can see if it signals already present stem cells?!!!
 

LayZ

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Thanx squeegee,

.75mm channel takes 18 hrs to close, without occlusion. How long ya figure a 1.5mm channel, thats occluded with coagulated blood takes to close? Hydrolipid barrier reforms in around 4 hrs, but minoxidil can cross that pretty easy. It's the channel I'm interested in.

PrinRam mentioned a max saturation point and a 4 hr window for minoxidil iirc. But has anyone considered the drug depot effect? Like creating thousands of micro iv drip bags in these channels.
 

squeegee

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I wonder how will the device that removes 7 MM OF SKIN FROM FOLLICA TURN OUT...Here is another AWESOME FIND which shows that hydrogel can grow new skin and even NEW HAIR FOLLICLES...but ofcourse the damage should be EQUIVALENT TO A THIRD DEGREE BURN .... http://www.gizmag.com/hydrogel-skin-third-degree-burns/20876/...

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It is also mentioned that hydrogel can signal stem cells - what if we use HYDROGEL ON SCALP AFTER DERMA WOUNDING and even though the wound is not as DEEP , but still we can see if it signals already present stem cells?!!!

Where can I buy this hydrogel? It is available yet?
 

LayZ

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karan,

If hydrogels perform as claimed, Follica is done. It's years away, without any patent wars, so don't get too excited.
 

princessRambo

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karan,

If hydrogels perform as claimed, Follica is done. It's years away, without any patent wars, so don't get too excited.
It's interesting though, they have mentioned some unknown mechanism at play. The body truly is a maze of potential :)...
 

LayZ

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It's interesting though, they have mentioned some unknown mechanism at play. The body truly is a maze of potential :)...

A complete game changer. The body doesn't fight itself to heal itself. Complete scarless remodelling...

Oh, did I forget HAIR! It'll get here when it gets here I suppose.
 

squeegee

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A complete game changer. The body doesn't fight itself to heal itself. Complete scarless remodelling...

Oh, did I forget HAIR! It'll get here when it gets here I suppose.

Acell were claiming the same results. game changer? nope
 

LayZ

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Extracellular scaffolds were used as a control to compare with hydrogels. And hydrogels unexpectedly blew them away. Results like this haven't been seen since bbq guy and completely fried woman.

Complete game changer. Complete scarless regeneration.
 
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karankaran

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I do not have details of the study but I know it is a "specific" type of hydrogel. something that is being developed. If you guys know about it, a DEEP CHEMICAL PEEL is equivalent to a THIRD DEGREE BURN. but i guess nowhere near to removing 7 mm of skin by follica. I am not sure how this all will pan out but it is all going in the RIGHT DIRECTION!

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BTW HAVE you guys read about this AWESOME STUDY - http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/120528/srep00424/full/srep00424.html
"HAIR ORGAN REGENERATION VIA BIO ENGINEERED HAIR TRANSPLANT (FUE)."
 

LayZ

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karan,

The hair organ regen is compliments of the Tsugi gang. Great stuff but don't hold your breath waiting. ;)
 
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karankaran

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LayZ,
yeah i know , but i feel that a lot of research is moving in the right direction and given the advances in a lot of fields including cosmetic surgery (no one thought of fraxel laser or fat grafting), I feel we might have some reasons to be optimistic , for now derma roller+ minoxidil will do but some time before i start that experiment...
 

LayZ

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karan,

You're 26, ruling out something nasty(blah!), at the very latest your young girlfriend will be running her fingers through your lustrous hair sometime in the future.

As long as you can pay for the procedures and drive a nice car! ;)
 

squeegee

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I had already posted about hydrogel in this thread as well and once again, it comes up now by another person. Here is the true source and the materials and procedure at page 6.
http://m.pnas.org/content/early/2011/12/13/1115973108.full.pdf

I am on the phone so you might have to remove the
m. From the URL

I saw it already, I asked if it was readily available...hello? Get over yourself D-O LOL.. tell you mom over the phone that squeegee say hi LOL

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Does the Bigfoot have balding genes?

[video=youtube;NPIuvdgH9_M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPIuvdgH9_M[/video]
 
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