New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[brunobald]

If waiting a full two weeks to complete a healing cycle turns out to be positive. I was thinking it might be worth extending the wounding period, I mean who says wounding can only be one session on the first day of the cycle. Why not wound for three days straight twice a day, then break for two weeks.

 

[squeegee]

How does it work?
A pin prick injury from a microneedle goes through the same 3 stages of the healing process as a larger wound:
1) Inflammation
2) Proliferation (tissue formation)
3) Tissue remodelling
Stage 1), Inflammaton:
Chemotactic factors are released during the infiltration of platelets:
i) TGF alpha and TGF beta (Transforming growth factor alpha and beta)
ii) EGF (Epidermal growth factor)
iii) FGF (Fibroblast growth factor)
iv) IGF (Insulin-like growth factor)
v) PDEGF (Platelet derived epidermal growth factor)
vi) PDAF (platelet derived angiogenesis factor)
Stage 2), Proliferation:
Immune reaction – The leucocytes (white blood cells), act on the injured tissue to eliminate waste and bacteria; This starts off a cascade of activity;
Re-Epithelialization – takes place within a few hours after the procedure as a result of the migration of keratinocytes (and not cell division); After the initial keratinocytes’ adhesion, the missing constituents needed to reinstate the basement membrane with laminin and collagen types IV and VII start being produced; A couple of days after the wound formation, keratinocytes begin proliferating, leading to the epidermis getting thicker.
Revascularization – The blood vessels’ breakage at outset of the needle injury results in moderate tissue hypoxia (injured tissue is deprived of adequate oxygen supply); Under low oxygen levels, fibroblasts are triggered to produce more TGF, PDGF and VEGF
Collagen synthesis – In the meantime, pro-collagen mRNA is also regulated, but new collagen synthesis is not stimulated before revascularization occurs, because oxygen is necessary. Fibroblasts travel into the injured tissue area and generate collagen and elastin as well as proteoglycans and other matrix components.
Stage 3), Remodelling:
Two days post injury – TGF migrates into the wound area after approximately two days post injury and signals fibroblasts to start producing collagen, elastin, glycosaminoglycans and proteoglycans.
Collagen Type III is the main form of collagen produced in early wound healing and is laid down in the papillary and upper reticular layers of the dermis, just below the basal layer of the epidermis.
Five days post injury – The fibronectin matrix is re-established and over the next few months collagen Type III is progressively replaced by collagen Type I, which gives the tissues increased tensile strength. This tissue remodelling carries on for a period of 12 to 18 months.
How does it work?
Conclusion:
- Skin needling with Dermaroller results in the formation of thousands of miniscule pin prick wounds in the targeted skin tissue.
- Each of those pin prick wounds is an onset of the normal healing process occurring in the broken skin and leads to new collagen being laid down in the upper dermal layer of the skin.
- A single micro-needle injury would not trigger noticeable collagen formation, but collectively the thousands of minute injuries produce collagen layers on a scale similar to laser therapies.
- Consecutive skin needling sessions produce new collagen progressively until indented scars and deep lines are filled.
Advantages over other skin therapies:
No skin damage (epidermis left intact)
No skin sensitivity to UV light
No risk of permanent skin discoloration
- Suitable for all skin types
- Suitable for thin skin
- Short healing time
- Minimal down time (48 hours)
- Minimal discomfort post-treatment
- Cost effective alternative to laser, e.g., Fraxel laser
- Painless (topical anaesthetic can be used)
- Minimal or no side effects

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Pretty cheap... http://www.skinactives.com/Keratinocyte-Growth-Factor-BT-KGF.html

[url]http://www.skinactives.com/pdfs/kgf.pdf



This growth factor has been proven to stimulate hair growth in laboratory studies. It also accelerates healing and increases skin volume. It may also help prevent hair loss during radiation therapy during cancer treatment. Keratinocyte Growth Factor (KGF) binds to the KGF receptor on the cell surface, acting as both a growth and survival factor by stimulating epithelial cell proliferation, differentiation, and migration and promoting a number of cell protective mechanisms. KGF is also known as FGF-7 and heparin-binding growth factor-7 (HBGF-7). KGF is a member of the fibroblast growth factor family and has been found to stimulate hair growth. Cells that respond to KGF do so because they have receptors on the cell membrane that recognize the growth factor, normally produced by cells near or far from the target cell. The binding of the Growth Factor to the receptor initiates a cascade of molecular events that will eventually lead, among other effects, to cell division. Keratinocyte growth factor has been shown to regulate proliferation and differentia¬tion in epithelial tissues and may regulate the stem cells of the hair follicle.


[/URL]Keratinocyte growth factor is an important endogenous mediator of hair follicle growth, development, and differentiation. Normalization of the nu/nu follicular differentiation defect and amelioration of chemotherapy-induced alopecia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1869891/


Stimulation of all epithelial elements during skin regeneration by keratinocyte growth factor


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2191416/


Keratinocyte growth factor is required for hair development but not for wound healing.


http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/10/2/165.abstract

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For those that missed it like me, despite squeegee, an interesting post by joseph… in 2008. Beside dermarolling, he used retin-a and curcumin.

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/25910-Skin-Needling/page15

He has the same style of growing hair...

 

[DesperateOne]

Holy crap, this thread is being updated faster each day. Looks like we have to buy so much stuff now.

 

[karankaran]

OMG , So much new stuff like new supplements or topical.... I was thinking of starting Res/Curcumin but I kinda backtracked. But Now I am thinking , should i just go all out...

 

[closetmetrosexual]

Anyone applying Retin-A cream right after rolling?

I'm wondering if this is good or bad...
Retin-A supposedly breaks down fibrosis. But is there anything anti-inflammatory in the generic Retin-A cream that would be detrimental to use right after rolling?

Immediately following a hardcore needling session would give us most bang for the buck with re. to applying Retin-A.

 

[squeegee]

just ordered some : http://www.skinactives.com/Keratinocyte-Growth-Factor-BT-KGF.html

bought 4.. will add to rolling time

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Anyone applying Retin-A cream right after rolling?

I'm wondering if this is good or bad...
Retin-A supposedly breaks down fibrosis. But is there anything anti-inflammatory in the generic Retin-A cream that would be detrimental to use right after rolling?

Immediately following a hardcore needling session would give us most bang for the buck with re. to applying Retin-A.

According to numerous derma roller websites. You should not apply anything except hyaluronic acid http://purebulk.com/hyaluronic-acid-powder.html after rolling. They use retin-a prior rolling. HA is really good. I used it in the past. I just ordered 25 grams from ebay. Easy to make.

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http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/25910-Skin-Needling/page24

 

[Bombarie]

i have a question.

I`m rolling for 8 weeks and applying minoxidil mixed with ascj=9 now and want to add finasteride, does anyone think i should go for finasteride , ore can the excisting hairs being saved with rolling and minoxidil only?

Thought rambo said rolling only helps saving excisting hairs

 

[albert]

just ordered some : http://www.skinactives.com/Keratinocyte-Growth-Factor-BT-KGF.html

bought 4.. will add to rolling time

Wow, I can't wait to see if this works or not. There are few reviews about the product in the webpage but doesn't say anything to me (similar to thousands of reviews from normal hair supplements). I really hope you give us good news in some weeks!

 

[bhwbj]

Indeed (but not more than 1.5mm, benjt study pointed this out clearly) + minoxidil used very frequently, I still maintain that we can get results as good as the indian study and I do believe even miniaturized follicle can comeback to life slowly in this way. As far as depth, some dermabrading devices can go as deep as 3mm. Quote from the study I posted above where they notice only vellus hair and nothing more using dermabrading alone:

So it would seem a successful dermabrading regenerative hair plan must involve minoxidil. I wonder if this means the new hair would be permanently dependent on minoxidil for continued survival.....even though the dermabrading supposedly breaks up fibrosis, allowing the hair to receive nutrients from below(blood vessel).

 

[theRA]

just ordered some : http://www.skinactives.com/Keratinocyte-Growth-Factor-BT-KGF.html

bought 4.. will add to rolling time

hmm but how will you apply it? once a week after DRing?

 

[Breaking Bald]

Can someone explain to me why there is an increased risk of creating tumours whilst Dermarolling?

 

[Armando Jose]

I got another interesting finding to report.

I just finished my latest dermarolling session - totally off schedule, I just didnt have the time recently. If I'm not mistaken it should be like 16 days after the previous rolling session, so quite a bit longer than my usual 7 to 10 days waiting.
Now, the interesting thing is: the crunching noises were back. The ones that were completely gone meanwhile during my last sessions. Today during my session they were back though not remotely as loud as during my 1st and 2nd session. Also, some other people reported that they got crunchy noises at first which then later vanished.

My theory after having gotten confirmation about this from 4 or 5 people was that the crunching noise was fibrotic tissue being penetrated, and, as the fibrotic tissue got increasingly destroyed, the crunching noises vanished.

As obviously the fibrotic tissue could not have rebuilt within 16 or 17 days, I have an alternative theory about the crunching noise: this was the "normal" noise of healthy tissue, not fibrotic tissue. If this is the case, this would indicate that 7 to 10 days between violent 1.5mm rolling sessions are indeed not enough recovery time. I really doubt that newly generated/repaired tissue can turn fibrotic that quickly, and thus I doubt that the new crunchy noises that I got are from new fibrotic tissue.

Could the other ones that reported the crunching noises extend their recovery periods to at least 14 days and check if they also get these noises back?

Interesting Benjt, I am with you with ..
what do you think about the hidrated scalp in order to be more effective in DR?

 

[Kirby]

Second rollin' session tonight... I'm very pessimistic about my own personal chance of success however. We know that we need the minoxidil to work this protocol, however I've been using minoxidil for nearly 5 months now without any results (not even the tiniest vellus hairs) so maybe minoxidil doesn't help me generally, like my body doesn't respond to it. However, despite the odds stacked against me, I will continue rolling until the 12 week mark at least, and continue the minoxidil alongside it.

 

[albert]

Second rollin' session tonight... I'm very pessimistic about my own personal chance of success however. We know that we need the minoxidil to work this protocol, however I've been using minoxidil for nearly 5 months now without any results (not even the tiniest vellus hairs) so maybe minoxidil doesn't help me generally, like my body doesn't respond to it. However, despite the odds stacked against me, I will continue rolling until the 12 week mark at least, and continue the minoxidil alongside it.

Minoxidil didn't help me at all either, but the situation here is different - you're applying it while the skin is healing. Definitely not the same, so you're doing the right thing.

 

[closetmetrosexual]

just ordered some : http://www.skinactives.com/Keratinocyte-Growth-Factor-BT-KGF.html
bought 4.. will add to rolling time

Hey, I've been looking to try those for a long time (been wondering why nobody has been talking about them) but I have lacked the funds (and still do so).

Please, please do keep us posted on what your experience with the KFG's are, squeegee.

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According to numerous derma roller websites. You should not apply anything except hyaluronic acid http://purebulk.com/hyaluronic-acid-powder.html after rolling. They use retin-a prior rolling. HA is really good. I used it in the past. I just ordered 25 grams from ebay. Easy to make.

Do you know if they ever gave a reason for not applying Retin-A right after rolling?

I seem to remember Sarah @ owndoc saying Retin-A could be used just after rolling (if your skin can tolerate it), as it would boost the effects of Retin-A greatly (better penetration, obviously).

 

[Jlyncher]

Second rollin' session tonight... I'm very pessimistic about my own personal chance of success however. We know that we need the minoxidil to work this protocol, however I've been using minoxidil for nearly 5 months now without any results (not even the tiniest vellus hairs) so maybe minoxidil doesn't help me generally, like my body doesn't respond to it. However, despite the odds stacked against me, I will continue rolling until the 12 week mark at least, and continue the minoxidil alongside it.

I've been using minoxidil for 10 yrs, and I am seeing results.

 

[odalbak]

Second rollin' session tonight... I'm very pessimistic about my own personal chance of success however. We know that we need the minoxidil to work this protocol, however I've been using minoxidil for nearly 5 months now without any results (not even the tiniest vellus hairs) so maybe minoxidil doesn't help me generally, like my body doesn't respond to it. However, despite the odds stacked against me, I will continue rolling until the 12 week mark at least, and continue the minoxidil alongside it.

Read the Indian study. Guys who didn't respond to minoxidil had good response to DR+minoxidil

 

[super]

Second rollin' session tonight... I'm very pessimistic about my own personal chance of success however. We know that we need the minoxidil to work this protocol, however I've been using minoxidil for nearly 5 months now without any results (not even the tiniest vellus hairs) so maybe minoxidil doesn't help me generally, like my body doesn't respond to it. However, despite the odds stacked against me, I will continue rolling until the 12 week mark at least, and continue the minoxidil alongside it.

minoxidil didn't do **** to me, i had stopped using it because of that. I started doing the rolling with my doctor when i had almost no hope left to maintain my hair. So, after some months, seeing that i wasn't loosing more hair (and gaining a little bit) i started minoxidil again, and it made the results way better.

So, before doing the rolling, minoxidil was useless. Now, it isn't.

 

[Bombarie]

Is it wise to ad finas to the game?

 

[Chromeo]

Is it wise to ad finas to the game?

No reason not to add Finasteride if you want to.