Tell me why you think most athletes will eat carboyhrates and not fast...
"paying For It" By Chester Brown - Tales From Norwood Cemetery
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Tell me why you think most athletes will eat carboyhrates and not fast...
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i have no clue. i'm just stating some facts lol. i'm not involved in the debate. but at face value i'm definitely trusting davids public verifiable evidence over your anecdotes
you are basically engaging in broscience http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Broscience
here's a definition from there:
"Word of mouth knowledge passed off as fact, primarily among bodybuilders + weightlifters. Generally spouted most by guys who have used loads of steroids and are huge, have no idea what is happening to their bodies and then share that same cluelessness with others who make the false assumption that their experience means that they have knowledge."
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No clue? Well don't you think that if low carb and intermittent fasting were the best diet plans for athletes then more of them would actually be doing it? Think about it.
The term 'broscience' in itself is stupid and that quote is ridiculous...'spouted by guys who have used loads of steroids'. Experience matters. As stated, it isn't just my personal, individual experience. It is my experience based on being around top athletes and seeing what they do and how they train. David is making out like low carb diets are something new...they're not...they were all the rage back in the early 2000's...a time in sport nutrition which he is mocking.
I could lose the will to live posting links supporting what I already know to be true but read this (David too) and before you mock the url it is an 'expert' speaking (as this is what is demanded apparently):
http://www.momsteam.com/nutrition/s...oid-carbs-top-sports-nutrition-expert-says-no
It doesn't get much more conclusive than this:
"The International Olympic Committee's research-based recommendations for an optimal sports diet include far more carbs than you may realize:" (goes on to show table of recommended carb intake). Why are they not recommending fasting and low carbohydrates to athletes if science apparently shows what a great idea this is? Can anyone honestly say that they think elite level athletes, whose livelihoods depend on it have got their diets all wrong and that they instead should listen to the people selling the atkins diet books or the likes of David who advocate them?
Fasting and low carb diets are perfect for people who want to cut corners on their training. It's a lazy mentality. They won't be as athletic as they otherwise would have been.
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nope. the term broscience perfectly describes what you are doing. your experience with yourself and a few other people with one in a million genetics won't necessarily apply to most. even if we use the line of reasoning of "more experiences = more reliable" that still supports the actual science
they use giant compilations of experiences, and view it through an objective lens. no offense but a lot of the guys who spout the broscience stuff automatically discredit anyone who isnt some monstrous hulk.
they use giant compilations of experiences, and view it through an objective lens. no offense but a lot of the guys who spout the broscience stuff automatically discredit anyone who isnt some monstrous hulk.
So basically what you're saying is that having experience in a subject area counts for not a lot then and anyone with far less experience can read some 'expert information' (regardless of the fact that there will also be plenty of countering information) and be more knowledgable than said person with plenty of experience...
You know...leaving myself out of this then as apparently it can come across as arrogant, answer the questions in my last post. You want to discredit what I am saying so answer the questions which I have asked.
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yea what you are saying only supports the science lol. these physiologists study this sh*t for a living. so they have more experience. but i know you are talking about first hand experience, which has no bearing on truth. do i take a race cars driver advice on how to build an engine? do i take a 15 year old girl who uses her iphone all the time advice on how to build a new iphone?
also your one experience doesn't necessarily apply to most. its just one example, come on lol.
and as for the countering information, that doesnt discredit them either. it might mean there's no correlation, theres no recognizable pattern, or just bad science.
about your own questions, it doesnt matter. i'm not involved in it. but i'm just injecting some very basic logic lol. they apply to all debates
A race car driver isn't building their car..they are just driving it. A girl isn't building her phone, she is just using it. An athlete builds his own body via diet and training. Sure, he can take advice from experts or he can do the research himself; either way, they can't build his body for him...he has to do the work. After many years of successful experience, chances are he has a pretty good idea what he is talking about based on what works for him and what he has seen work for others. Your logic isn't correct here.
If you can't or won't answer the questions then what can I say? All i can do is reiterate that top athletes don't tend to do low carb diets and certainly not fasts and their careers depend on getting it right. They have scientists and experts working for them. When the IOC recommend carbohydrates are eaten then I don't know what else I can say...
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the race car driver and the girl can still learn some about their respective devices, just like an athlete learning about HIS own body, and of course some general stuff about the human body. but that doesnt mean theyre anecdotal info about their own stuff applies to all and should be taken as the gold standard of knowledge
i never disagreed that you couldn't learn anything through personal experience. its just its YOUR own experience. people are different. and athletes aren't a good example as they have top tier genetics.
about me answering the questions, this isn't about that. its irrelevant to my points.
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@jd_uk,
If you're willing to discuss based off up-to-date robust science, as in clinical investigations in peer-reviewed scientific journals, then I'm willing to engage. IMO, broscience and anecdotes have very little value. You're quoting from exactly the same people who say that scalp messages help with hair loss.
I do think there is some value to experimentation because a lot of truth in the world is not yet confirmed. For example, earlier this year I was taking maca powder as a nutritional supplement. Maybe it's helpful I don't know. I don't think speculation should be the foundation of your health regimen but it can be used as an add-on. I would never base my health off maca powder. It's a cheap speculative add-on. Probably a waste of money honestly.
Now, let me be completely clear, the following is a garbage meal plan:
Wake 7.30 am
7.30am
1 scoop whey protein in water
8.00am Breakfast
Large bowl porridge made with 250ml skimmed milk + 2 tsp sugar
2 slices granary bread toasted + olive oil-based spread
Serving weight gain drink or MRP
200ml orange juice + 1 tbsp flaxseed oil
10.30am
2 tuna sandwiches (4 slices granary bread)
Large banana
12.30pm
Large chicken breast
200ml fresh vegetable soup
4 slices granary bread + olive oil spread
Salad
Low fat yoghurt
3.00pm
6 oatcakes
Tub cottage cheese
Apple
45 mins pre-workout
Glass skimmed milk
Large handful mixed nuts
TRAIN
Immediately post workout
2 scoops whey protein + 50g dextrose in water
7.30pm
Lean steak or 2 pork chops
2 medium jacket potatoes or 100g boiled basmati rice
Large serving of vegetables
Low fat yoghurt
10.00pm
Large bowl wholewheat breakfast cereal + 250ml skimmed milk + 2 tsp sugar
11.30pm
1 scoop whey protein in 150ml skimmed milk
11.30pm
bed
Read more at: http://www.mealplansite.com/sports/bodybuilding-new-gain.aspx
********
Among the problems with that meal plan is that you need to orient your entire life around food, both eating and planning to eat. It's not so bad if you're making a seven-figure salary and can afford your own chef, but really it's unsustainable. The fact it involves 120 grams of protein powder per day, and around 350-400 grams of total protein per day (just WTF) is plausibly bad for your kidneys, Greg O'Gallagher has also argued that excess protein suppresses testosterone. The fact it involves 10 meals a day means insulin levels are always high, an human growth hormone levels are always low. It's been shown by multiple studies that human growth hormone skyrockets when one is not eating.
It might actually work for athletes though, or at least work better, because eating and training is their job. Olympic swimmers like Ryan Lochte consume 10,000 calories/day, so their bodies can handle it better.
If you're willing to discuss based off up-to-date robust science, as in clinical investigations in peer-reviewed scientific journals, then I'm willing to engage. IMO, broscience and anecdotes have very little value. You're quoting from exactly the same people who say that scalp messages help with hair loss.
I do think there is some value to experimentation because a lot of truth in the world is not yet confirmed. For example, earlier this year I was taking maca powder as a nutritional supplement. Maybe it's helpful I don't know. I don't think speculation should be the foundation of your health regimen but it can be used as an add-on. I would never base my health off maca powder. It's a cheap speculative add-on. Probably a waste of money honestly.
Now, let me be completely clear, the following is a garbage meal plan:
Wake 7.30 am
7.30am
1 scoop whey protein in water
8.00am Breakfast
Large bowl porridge made with 250ml skimmed milk + 2 tsp sugar
2 slices granary bread toasted + olive oil-based spread
Serving weight gain drink or MRP
200ml orange juice + 1 tbsp flaxseed oil
10.30am
2 tuna sandwiches (4 slices granary bread)
Large banana
12.30pm
Large chicken breast
200ml fresh vegetable soup
4 slices granary bread + olive oil spread
Salad
Low fat yoghurt
3.00pm
6 oatcakes
Tub cottage cheese
Apple
45 mins pre-workout
Glass skimmed milk
Large handful mixed nuts
TRAIN
Immediately post workout
2 scoops whey protein + 50g dextrose in water
7.30pm
Lean steak or 2 pork chops
2 medium jacket potatoes or 100g boiled basmati rice
Large serving of vegetables
Low fat yoghurt
10.00pm
Large bowl wholewheat breakfast cereal + 250ml skimmed milk + 2 tsp sugar
11.30pm
1 scoop whey protein in 150ml skimmed milk
11.30pm
bed
Read more at: http://www.mealplansite.com/sports/bodybuilding-new-gain.aspx
********
Among the problems with that meal plan is that you need to orient your entire life around food, both eating and planning to eat. It's not so bad if you're making a seven-figure salary and can afford your own chef, but really it's unsustainable. The fact it involves 120 grams of protein powder per day, and around 350-400 grams of total protein per day (just WTF) is plausibly bad for your kidneys, Greg O'Gallagher has also argued that excess protein suppresses testosterone. The fact it involves 10 meals a day means insulin levels are always high, an human growth hormone levels are always low. It's been shown by multiple studies that human growth hormone skyrockets when one is not eating.
It might actually work for athletes though, or at least work better, because eating and training is their job. Olympic swimmers like Ryan Lochte consume 10,000 calories/day, so their bodies can handle it better.
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Michael Phelps, the greatest olympic athlete in history, consumes 12,000 calories/day, including lots of carbohydrates. Lots and lots of carbohydrates.
It's not particularly relevant for most people though. I don't advocate that people spend 4-6 hours a day working out, unless it's their job. Most of us cannot make millions of dollars off our bodies, and thus we should not work out for ~30 hours a week nor should we eat 12,000 calories a day. If I go on the Michael Phelps diet I'll probably be in the hospital within a few weeks. ETA: To be honest I'm not sure I could last a single week on the Michael Phelps diet.
You are mocking intermittent fasting because you don't know the science: it actually does lower insulin, it lowers c-reactive protein, and it raises human-growth hormone. These outcomes are measured from blood samples in controlled clinical investigations. For the average person out there, that will mean better health. It may not matter as much to people who have perfect health and perfect genetics already, or to people who make training and eating their full-time job.
This is from an actual clinical investigation using proper measurements of blood, not in an elite athlete but a typical human being:
During a fast, insulin crashes and human growth hormone skyrockets. That's a measurement from blood. For a lot of people, that will be very healthy.
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Certainly within North America, there's been an overproduction of lawyers which has crashed their median salaries. A lot of people with law degrees make very little money, though it's still a great choice if you get into a top-law school.
shookwun
Senior Member
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What all you guys are failing to accept is that almost evey athlete involved in a competitive sport or one that involves being physically in shape takes PEDS.
Genetics and response to drugs and training is everything. As long as your eating a balanced in take of food, it's all genetic responce to trainng snd drugs.
They all take cocktails of hgh and steroids.
Lol at buying into this whole: -athletes diets- that some paper pushing penxil necked geek is writing out.
I have been eating over 4000 a day for years. Especially living in a work camp, food is so easy to stuff in. I eat course meals all day with snacks in between. In theory I should be fat, but my body does not store the extra calories. It burns it off.
Genetics and response to drugs and training is everything. As long as your eating a balanced in take of food, it's all genetic responce to trainng snd drugs.
They all take cocktails of hgh and steroids.
Lol at buying into this whole: -athletes diets- that some paper pushing penxil necked geek is writing out.
I have been eating over 4000 a day for years. Especially living in a work camp, food is so easy to stuff in. I eat course meals all day with snacks in between. In theory I should be fat, but my body does not store the extra calories. It burns it off.
David, let's go back to the start...we got on to this conversation because I offered you some diet/training tips on how to gain a more athletic physique. You keep talking about blood work because you're clearly sold on intermittent fasting and low carb diets but I never even mentioned blood work or the general health of the average person who doesn't train regularly. I'm talking about what I know works for someone who wants to get in top physical, athletic shape based on many of years experience, both my own experience and from being around others. You may be able to keep your insulin low from cutting carbs and fasting, in fact I'm sure you can - it makes sense. I'm sure there are also hundreds of studies that will tell me how a vegetarian diet will be 'healthy' too but none of these are going to be the most effective way to get in great athletic shape. I know what works, to me it is obvious.
Maybe you should just try it...do your fasting and your low carb stuff for a year and come back and then post your progress results and pictures. Then try doing what most athletes do for a bit. When I've posted articles written by experts you've just ignored them. Nobody is telling you to eat a Michael Phelps diet - you're being pedantic. Quite clearly you would never be able to expend the calories which he does and would just put on a hell of a lot of weight. As I said in probably my first post on this matter, the single most important equation when controlling body weight is the calories burnt versus the calories ingested. But it begs the question...why does Michael Phelps need all of those carbohydrates? Why doesn't the greatest olympic swimmer of all time just cut carbs and fast? There must be a scientist somewhere saying 'hey Michael, don't you know that if you only eat a few times a day and keep your carbs low then you will be lean as f*ck and swim really fast?' No? ....You know the answer and to argue any different is embarrassing. In all my time being around both amateur and professional athletes I've never once seen or heard of them doing a ketosis diet or even worse, fasting*. Perhaps there is some random athlete out there doing it but generally if you are training regularly then you eat regularly, simple as that. And if you want to get in great shape then you should be training regularly. No cutting corners; hard work and time. If people like you or academics want to call that 'broscience' then fine, be my guest, but if I take my shirt off and they take their shirt off or if I bang out a set of pull ups and they try then we'll quickly see who is laughing.
Want a study? This one finds that low carbohydrate diets cause cortisol to rise compared to free testosterone yet the same effects weren't observed when carbohydrates were eaten. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091182
Again, frankly I don't really care too much what that study says because for so long now I have seen what works and what doesn't. I don't need studies to confirm what is obvious. If you really can't accept what I'm saying then go and tell 100 athletes to cut their carbs or fast and then let me know what their response is...
* - Apart from perhaps a quick fast to cut weight in the case of a fighter.
Maybe you should just try it...do your fasting and your low carb stuff for a year and come back and then post your progress results and pictures. Then try doing what most athletes do for a bit. When I've posted articles written by experts you've just ignored them. Nobody is telling you to eat a Michael Phelps diet - you're being pedantic. Quite clearly you would never be able to expend the calories which he does and would just put on a hell of a lot of weight. As I said in probably my first post on this matter, the single most important equation when controlling body weight is the calories burnt versus the calories ingested. But it begs the question...why does Michael Phelps need all of those carbohydrates? Why doesn't the greatest olympic swimmer of all time just cut carbs and fast? There must be a scientist somewhere saying 'hey Michael, don't you know that if you only eat a few times a day and keep your carbs low then you will be lean as f*ck and swim really fast?' No? ....You know the answer and to argue any different is embarrassing. In all my time being around both amateur and professional athletes I've never once seen or heard of them doing a ketosis diet or even worse, fasting*. Perhaps there is some random athlete out there doing it but generally if you are training regularly then you eat regularly, simple as that. And if you want to get in great shape then you should be training regularly. No cutting corners; hard work and time. If people like you or academics want to call that 'broscience' then fine, be my guest, but if I take my shirt off and they take their shirt off or if I bang out a set of pull ups and they try then we'll quickly see who is laughing.
Want a study? This one finds that low carbohydrate diets cause cortisol to rise compared to free testosterone yet the same effects weren't observed when carbohydrates were eaten. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091182
Again, frankly I don't really care too much what that study says because for so long now I have seen what works and what doesn't. I don't need studies to confirm what is obvious. If you really can't accept what I'm saying then go and tell 100 athletes to cut their carbs or fast and then let me know what their response is...
* - Apart from perhaps a quick fast to cut weight in the case of a fighter.
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It's true to say that a lot of sportsmen take PED's. I know that professional rugby players regularly take them. I know a few personally and they have quietly admitted it to me. But then, drug testing is sh*t in rugby and the governing bodies think that urine tests are enough to do the job.
It's not however true to say that all professional or almost all professional athletes take PED's. For many, the testing is just too vigorous and the risks of being caught are too high.
Genetics are important at the top level but it doesn't change the fact that if a fasting or low carb diet would give them an advantage then they would all be doing it. The fact is that there is no advantage...it would be very hard to achieve what they do by cutting a major group of nutrients or limiting their meals.
I also eat a pretty high amount of calories (not as much as you, but still higher than average). A lot of them come from protein and complex carbohydrate sources. I barely have any fat on me and I am muscular without actually training to body build .
CaptainForehead
Senior Member
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Actually yes, all professional athletes take PED's. Testing is a joke, it can be easily circumvented. Listen to the podcast of the Balco guy.
This doesn't mean athletes want to take shortcuts, it means athletes -- who by nature are highly driven and highly competitive -- will do anything to reach the pinnacle of human performance, even if beyond their natural potential.
blackg
Senior Member
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Ah, sh*t here we go.
It's as naive to believe someone who says that all athletes take PED's as it is to believe that all athletes are clean. It definitely goes on more than we know but Victor Conte is a pretty crooked guy himself and should be listened to but not religiously believed.
CaptainForehead
Senior Member
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Many coaches also say this. Rippetoe who is a famous coach also says this.
shookwun
Senior Member
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Doesn't take away from there skills and genetics but to think most athletes are clean is absurd. I suppose most of you think Olympians are clean to? Or if someone isn't big that they are clean.
NFL, cyclists & baseball players are massive users of PEDS to name a few. Only difference is those who get caught and those who don't. PEDS higgly contribute to recovery, speed, explosiveness and accelerated performance of athletes on all levels. An athlete on drugs will destroy someone who's similar and natural.
NFL, cyclists & baseball players are massive users of PEDS to name a few. Only difference is those who get caught and those who don't. PEDS higgly contribute to recovery, speed, explosiveness and accelerated performance of athletes on all levels. An athlete on drugs will destroy someone who's similar and natural.