Setipiprant Does Work, But Only On Really Really High Doses.

ALightInTheDark

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And for the record, if it came down to it (though I see no reason it should have to), I would trade my dick for my hair. My hair is involved in every waking moment of my life. My dick maybe 10 minutes a day max.

Everyone has different priorities. Every year you experiment with another "theory" is a year of lost hair you may never get back

Man. You are SO f*****g wrong. Hair is essential I agree. But it doesn't do sh*t for your whole body. Your dick and balls indeed,does.
I'm sure I'm more bald than you and I wouldn't do a compromise between these 2. But that's my point of view. I wish you good luck and hope Daro is a god's gift without too much side effects.

Every year you experiment with another "theory" is a year of lost hair you may never get back

The only two valid (proven with results) theories in hair loss forum world are Prostaglandin (wounding etc) and AR-related one.
And trannies proves us you can grow back your hair whenever you want to,they're not lost forever.
 

whatevr

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nope, more like u r still evading the contents of my posts.

more like that's a cheap attempt to getaway that i have u in a simple deadlock

I dont have to explain anything why do i have to explain anything in regards your claim that 'finasteride causes >80% of men'?

i repeat 1 last time:

i base my opinions on those studies that i've linked in #post 216, while u r basing yours on self opinions and anecdotes(aka bro science)

Thanks.


PS* being knowledgeable is remarkable, acting knowledgeable is laughable

I knew the awful grammar and writing style was familiar from somewhere, but now I recognize you.

Maybe you should keep your trolling on SAGA, ELDARLMARI. You were already banned here once.
 

InBeforeTheCure

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You would be very keen to know more about this gene: FADS2

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4253878/

Results
Cis-acting eSNP demonstrated associations with asthma in both cohorts. We confirmed the previously-reported association of ORMDL3/GSDMB variants with asthma (combined p=2.9 × 108). Reproducible associations were also observed for eSNP in three additional genes: FADS2 (p=0.002), NAGA (p=0.0002), and F13A1 (p=0.0001). We subsequently demonstrated that FADS2 mRNA is increased in CD4+ lymphocytes in asthmatics, and that the associated eSNPs reside within DNA segments with histone modifications that denote open chromatin status and confer enhancer activity.

This gene is interesting because it is also significantly increased in the http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjd.14767/abstract

View attachment 68142

- is highly expressed in https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12713571 and is the critical enzyme that decides how much lipid synthesis(such as eicosanoids like PGE2, PGD2, PGF2A, PGI2 and TXA2) that our scalp is going to make locally.

In this context, what can be inferred from the diagram is that hyper-production of PGD2 is taking place in the balding scalp that is further supported by https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28941500

@TheKingofFIghters Yes, I've seen that study, and I know about fatty acid desaturases. Actually, Hagenaars et al. did find a small association between the FADS cluster and M.P.B.

CHR SNP Position Effect allele Other allele Beta SE P MAF N_SNPs_in_cluster Range KB_range Genes_within_range
11 rs174581 61606683 A G -0.04 0.006 1.05E-08 0.36 57 chr11:61543499..61624181 80.683 [FADS1,FADS2,FEN1,MYRF,TMEM258]

rs174581 is in very high LD (R^2 = 0.9568) with rs174537. rs174581 = A (slightly protective against M.P.B) is correlated with rs174537 = T, which is associated with greater methylation around FADS1/FADS2 and lower apparent activity of both enzymes (higher DGLA/AA ratio, higher LA/GLA ratio) in the liver, with the effect on FADS1 maybe being stronger (Howard et al.). rs174581 = A is also correlated with rs174601 = C (R^2 = 0.8576), which is associated most prominently with higher levels of DGLA in red blood cells (Tintle et al., Supp. Table 3). Of course, FADS1 and FADS2 are also expressed locally in hair follicles, and effects of the FADS SNPs there are hard to predict. The M.P.B-associated SNP is not in strong LD (R^2 = 0.4) with the asthma-associated FADS SNPs. It's a minor locus, but is the only vaguely prostaglandin-related gene associated with M.P.B to date (out of 115 or so).

fa_metabolism.png


I'm not sure what to make of microarray results anymore - they're so inconsistent from one study to another. Garza et al. for example found no difference in FADS2 expression between bald and haired scalp (bald/haired median fold change = 0.94). Maybe the sample sizes are too small.
 

dermrafok

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@TheKingofFIghters Yes, I've seen that study, and I know about fatty acid desaturases. Actually, Hagenaars et al. did find a small association between the FADS cluster and M.P.B.

CHR SNP Position Effect allele Other allele Beta SE P MAF N_SNPs_in_cluster Range KB_range Genes_within_range
11 rs174581 61606683 A G -0.04 0.006 1.05E-08 0.36 57 chr11:61543499..61624181 80.683 [FADS1,FADS2,FEN1,MYRF,TMEM258]

rs174581 is in very high LD (R^2 = 0.9568) with rs174537. rs174581 = A (slightly protective against M.P.B) is correlated with rs174537 = T, which is associated with greater methylation around FADS1/FADS2 and lower apparent activity of both enzymes (higher DGLA/AA ratio, higher LA/GLA ratio) in the liver, with the effect on FADS1 maybe being stronger (Howard et al.). rs174581 = A is also correlated with rs174601 = C (R^2 = 0.8576), which is associated most prominently with higher levels of DGLA in red blood cells (Tintle et al., Supp. Table 3). Of course, FADS1 and FADS2 are also expressed locally in hair follicles, and effects of the FADS SNPs there are hard to predict. The M.P.B-associated SNP is not in strong LD (R^2 = 0.4) with the asthma-associated FADS SNPs. It's a minor locus, but is the only vaguely prostaglandin-related gene associated with M.P.B to date (out of 115 or so).

View attachment 68271

I'm not sure what to make of microarray results anymore - they're so inconsistent from one study to another. Garza et al. for example found no difference in FADS2 expression between bald and haired scalp (bald/haired median fold change = 0.94). Maybe the sample sizes are too small.
You are suggesting...No cure for male pattern baldness?
 

Grasshüpfer

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@InBeforeTheCure
Hair aside let's get a drink at some point. You for sure have some good stories to tell.
 

IdealForehead

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c'mon you guy- this thread has been hijacked, seriously- can we please stick to the title guys please????
Setipiprant Does Work, But Only On Really Really High Doses.

But does it? That is the thread.

This is a guy from this forum on only minoxidil 5% for 10 months before and after:

pic20131212092723-jpg.jpg

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...rkland-5-foam-after-10-weeks-with-pics.76176/

Cost = ~$80. Entirely topical, no significant systemic side effects.

That's as much or more hair regrowth as I've seen from guys claiming to have done well on setipiprant.

Can anyone explain to me why a combination of:

1) Minoxidil 5% which increases PGE2, and is one of the only two FDA approved hair loss treatments, and
2) Cetirizine 1% which blocks PGD2 production and now has at least one study showing it works (or desloratadine in an alcohol base)

Doesn't that make more sense in combination with an oral anti-androgen like finasteride/dutasteride?

I'm seriously not trolling. I'm still trying to figure out the conceptual advantage to this stuff, especially if it has to be taken orally with anxiety and insomnia (central nervous system) side effects, and people are giving up on topical application for it already due to poor solubility.

I haven't study prostaglandin enzymes or chains in detail. So am I missing something? From what I gather the desired prostaglandin manipulation can be done cheaper with the topical agents above and at present they have better evidence, as we have zero studies for seti.
 
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ALightInTheDark

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Do you have any links on how to make a liposomal vehicle? Is the 4x you're mentioning a rough guess or based on a particular stat?

I would be curious to learn about this. Always keen to learn new techniques. Thanks.

To be honest no

My stats are based on what I think,the 2 most knowledgeable people on RU : hellouser and elduterino. I don't remember who said it but he showed a study with it in a ancient hairforum and I can't put my hand on it, sorry.
But also on this : https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02969312
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4818067/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3918523/

Liposomal formulation are well known to increase absorbption, but are very complicated to make. If I remember well,it's what Brotzu or Polichem Finasteride or H&W Fina is based on. Better scalp absorbtion,less side effect, a good vehcile can make a huge difference.

The only other vehicle I know instead of basic ethyl alcohol/PG combo are Swiss Vehicle/Stemoxydine/Serioxyl and Espumil

You're welcolme ! :)
 

ALightInTheDark

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Cetirizine 1% which blocks PGD2 production

It doesn't,it reduces PGD2 levels,it doesn't block it.

Minoxidil 5% (or oral 2.5-10 mg per day) which increases PGE2

It might be. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9008235
But not proved ! minoxidil is really complex to understand.

I'm still trying to figure out the conceptual advantage to this stuff, especially if it has to be taken orally with anxiety and insomnia (central nervous system) side effects, and people are giving up on topical application for it already due to poor solubility.

I haven't study prostaglandin enzymes or chains in detail

gr1_lrg.jpg


dDPyhOX.png


BTW,I don't know if it's an hypothesis since Cots will prove even more effects PGD2 have on bald scalp at this congress.

33ur9kk.jpg


Prostaglandin-D2-DHT-Hair-Loss-Similar.jpg
 

IdealForehead

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It doesn't,it reduces PGD2 levels,it doesn't block it.



It might be. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9008235
But not proved ! minoxidil is really complex to understand.



View attachment 68373

View attachment 68374

BTW,I don't know if it's an hypothesis since Cots will prove even more effects PGD2 have on bald scalp at this congress.

View attachment 68375

View attachment 68376

Yeah that's the same thing I am aware of which is all very basic. The level of understanding of all this is all very rudimentary.

From what understand antihistamines like cetirizine and desloratadine manage to reduce pgd2 by a completely different approach of blocking h1 histamine receptors which reduces PGD2 release from allergic triggers and cells like mast cells. Blocking H1 also blocks an entire immune and inflammatory cascade of other cytokines.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2469708

But if this h1 blockade only played a role in allergic phenomena we wouldn't have a hair study showing its topical 1% use resulted in 18% greater density. Unless that study was frauded. And we wouldn't have so many people claiming its topical use immediately cures the male pattern baldness itch. Unless they were delusional. (I will be testing this myself soon as i just ordered some desloratadine.)

The level of understanding for all this is so basic. But from what information we have, I would rather use a cheap 1% topical over the counter antihistamine, with one study showing it works, than an expensive oral enzyme blocker you have to swallow in massive doses and no published evidence yet that it works or long term safety data.

As we know from the fat and muscle atrophy induced by prostaglandin analogs bimatoprost and latanoprost, messing with prostaglandin balances can have unintended consequences. It is possible that similar prostaglandin mechanisms underlie minoxidil's negative effect on collagen. I note a few ITT have suggested seti is making their face look "tired" already.

http://eyewiki.aao.org/Prostaglandin_Associated_Periorbitopathy

It will be curious to see if anyone runs a study of topical cetirizine vs oral seti. Oral seti seems like using a sledgehammer to kill a mouse, if topical cetririze can do the same essential thing by a simpler/safer mechanism.
 
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ALightInTheDark

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Yeah that's the same thing I am aware of which is all very basic. The level of understanding of all this is all very rudimentary.

From what understand antihistamines like cetirizine and desloratadine manage to reduce pgd2 by a completely different approach of blocking h1 histamine receptors which reduces PGD2 release from allergic triggers and cells like mast cells. Blocking H1 also blocks an entire immune and inflammatory cascade of other cytokines.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2469708

But if this h1 blockade only played a role in allergic phenomena we wouldn't have a hair study showing its topical 1% use resulted in 18% greater density. Unless that's study was frauded.

The level of understanding for all this is so basic. But from what information we have, I would rather use a cheap 1% topical over the counter antihistamine, with one study showing it works, than an expensive oral enzyme blocker you have to swallow in massive doses and no published evidence yet that it works or long term safety data.

It will be curious to see if anyone runs a study of topical cetirizine vs oral seti. Oral seti seems like using a sledgehammer to kill a mouse, if topical cetririze can do the same essential thing by a simpler/safer mechanism.

The problem is not really PGD2 but the CRTH2 receptor which trigger hair loss. Like the prob is not DHT but androgen sensitivity,it's not the same.
But I posted you a link where you see why Cetirizine isn't revelant and will never truly work or does wonder.

But yes I agree with u,2g a day to stop hair loss is too much even it works very well to stop it. In waiting of Pulmagan and Fevi haha
 

IdealForehead

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The problem is not really PGD2 but the CRTH2 receptor which trigger hair loss. Like the prob is not DHT but androgen sensitivity,it's not the same.
But I posted you a link where you see why Cetirizine isn't revelant and will never truly work or does wonder.

But yes I agree with u,2g a day to stop hair loss is too much even it works very well to stop it. In waiting of Pulmagan and Fevi haha

Sorry. I don't see the link on cetirizine and I'm on my phone which makes it difficult to hunt. Can you repost?

Also i updated my post above. Not to belabor the point on the safety of prostaglandin manipulation but bimatoprost and latanoprost are both known to cause local fat and muscle atrophy. Minoxidil is known to impair collagen development.

Some ITT are claiming Seti is already making their face look "tired" which would potentially be consistent with similar effects.

Prostaglandins play a role in many, many cellular signalling mechanisms for multiple tissue types. Not just hair.

I consider minoxidil a necessary evil. Necessary because it's the only chemical which is an FDA approved growth stimulant. Evil because it clearly has negative effects on skin and subcutaneous tissues.

Personally i am much more comfortable blocking my androgen receptors than i am messing with prostagladins, even via minoxidil. So far it seems consistent that direct manipulation of prostaglandin levels via enzyme alteration or analog application to promote hair growth also results in increased aging effects.
 
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IdealForehead

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Study showing mast cell activation (in doves of all things) can be triggered by hormones like dht, t. Mast cells are the primary storage site for pgd2.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10698195

Antihistamines block activation of mast cells.

Therefore it does seem plausible a topical antihistamine will do the same thing in the end by a different mechanism with better long term safety data (over the counter med and topical application).

Two studies now published via University of Rome showing increased growth with topical cetirizine.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28604133

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jdv.13864/abstract

Likely none of this can replace primary antiandrogen therapy as i have said since the start. But it could be a valid approach to safely reducing pgd2 which might augment results for dirt cheap and minimal to no risk.

If so, again, better than taking massive oral doses of an experimental prostaglandin enzyme inhibitor. Antihistamines have been around ages and we know their safety profile well.

I just realized, a new theory: Mast cell activation is likely the most plausible explanation for the male pattern baldness itch.

Dht & t activate mast cells in the scalp (either directly or indirectly) > pgd2 is released as well as other "allergic" related inflammatory cytokines > itch occurs.

Itching is typically the result of "allergic" or mast cell mediated inflammation. Other types of inflammation do not typically create an itch. For example joint inflammation triggers an ache.

But our scalps don't ache. They itch. Which suggests a very logical role for antihistamines in safely reducing that type of inflammation.
 
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ALightInTheDark

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Study showing mast cell activation (in doves of all things) can be triggered by hormones like dht, t. Mast cells are the primary storage site for pgd2.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10698195

Antihistamines block activation of mast cells.

Therefore it does seem plausible a topical antihistamine will do the same thing in the end by a different mechanism with better long term safety data (over the counter med and topical application).

Two studies now published via University of Rome showing increased growth with topical cetirizine.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28604133

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jdv.13864/abstract

Likely none of this can replace primary antiandrogen therapy as i have said since the start. But it could be a valid approach to safely reducing pgd2 which might augment results for dirt cheap and minimal to no risk.

If so, again, better than taking massive oral doses of an experimental prostaglandin enzyme inhibitor. Antihistamines have been around ages and we know their safety profile well.

I just realized, a new theory: Mast cell activation is likely the most plausible explanation for the male pattern baldness itch.

Dht & t activate mast cells in the scalp (either directly or indirectly) > pgd2 is released as well as other "allergic" related inflammatory cytokines > itch occurs.

Itching is typically the result of "allergic" or mast cell mediated inflammation. Other types of inflammation do not typically create an itch. For example joint inflammation triggers an ache.

But our scalps don't ache. They itch. Which suggests a very logical role for antihistamines in safely reducing that type of inflammation.

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=115274

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/...=101616&STARTPAGE=4&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=100447&enterthread

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=103373&enterthread=y

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=103688

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=100447&enterthread

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=77369

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/textthread.cfm?catid=7&threadid=103580

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/...=101616&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/b...ategory-1-order-last_answer-descasc-DESC.html


You should read this man,and tell me what you think with what you're sayin actually
 
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