Stemson is going to use minipigs in the next stage of their hair cloning research

[scientist_0005]

I like that they are thinking of starting trials in countries other than the US primarily japan or south korea, i also like this

"some cases it could be a complimentary drug which supports the development of our hair follicles and could actually have better efficacy than what’s on the market.

We make a lot of these cells so we have a unique platform to test drug candidates on these cells which no one else has. So, it’s something on our minds. There are all sorts of ways that we can manipulate these cells through drug molecules to either upregulate activity or downregulate, if you wanted to get rid of armpit hair, or back hair, for example. So, there is a list of opportunities in front of us, but we’re not actually working on those yet, we’re solely focused on the breakthrough of making new hair follicles. "

because this is really a solid opportunity they do indeed have.

they also commented on what I made a post on two days ago, the DHT sensitivity question of their newly produced cells. they said they have not looked into this at this point but i think its good that they have it in mind and are working with real samples of patients with AA, they definitely have this on the map and who knows, this research might advance the understanding of AA as a whole, i think it obviously will because to make a cell that is dht resistent you really have to understand what constitutes that and then actually make the cells enter this kind of epigenetic program which i dont understand how one would even accomplish that. like, can you force an expression pattern onto a cell manually? after all thats exactly what programming an IPC is all about, just with different genes, not those that are upregulated to give a cell pluripotency but those who make it resistant to dht... sounds EXTREMELY challenging

 

[froggy7]

I like that they are thinking of starting trials in countries other than the US primarily japan or south korea, i also like this

"some cases it could be a complimentary drug which supports the development of our hair follicles and could actually have better efficacy than what’s on the market.

We make a lot of these cells so we have a unique platform to test drug candidates on these cells which no one else has. So, it’s something on our minds. There are all sorts of ways that we can manipulate these cells through drug molecules to either upregulate activity or downregulate, if you wanted to get rid of armpit hair, or back hair, for example. So, there is a list of opportunities in front of us, but we’re not actually working on those yet, we’re solely focused on the breakthrough of making new hair follicles. "

because this is really a solid opportunity they do indeed have.

they also commented on what I made a post on two days ago, the DHT sensitivity question of their newly produced cells. they said they have not looked into this at this point but i think its good that they have it in mind and are working with real samples of patients with AA, they definitely have this on the map and who knows, this research might advance the understanding of AA as a whole, i think it obviously will because to make a cell that is dht resistent you really have to understand what constitutes that and then actually make the cells enter this kind of epigenetic program which i dont understand how one would even accomplish that. like, can you force an expression pattern onto a cell manually? after all thats exactly what programming an IPC is all about, just with different genes, not those that are upregulated to give a cell pluripotency but those who make it resistant to dht... sounds EXTREMELY challenging

it is extremely challengeling

 

[froggy7]

"
First, I think this is a fascinating approach. Second, I think it will eventually fail.


If the approach works, they will generate new follicles successfully. The new follicles would be implanted without rejection, because, like microfollicular hair transplants, they originate from cells harvested from the patient. I suspect this will be a very expensive process (low-medium five figures).


Unfortunately, they will not overcome “DHT resistance” on a permanent basis. That’s because sensitivity to DHT, with consequent signaling to miniaturize the follicle, is a property of the androgen receptors in the dermal papilla cells. Androgenetic Alopecia sufferers are burdened with too many due to their genetics. The Stemson Therapeutics folks are very talented and are likely to generate dermal papilla cell linings of their follicles with a lower concentration of androgen receptors. The problem is that these, cells, like all others, will die. They will be replaced by cells having the original concentration of androgen receptors, and the pattern baldness will recur. The net result will be a need to repeat this process a number of times over the patient’s lifetime.


I don’t think Stemson will have that much trouble getting over the genetic modification “hurdle” with the FDA or other regulatory body. The bigger problem will be that body’s requirement for Stemson to advertise clearly that this is a temporary solution."

 

[scientist_0005]

"
First, I think this is a fascinating approach. Second, I think it will eventually fail.


If the approach works, they will generate new follicles successfully. The new follicles would be implanted without rejection, because, like microfollicular hair transplants, they originate from cells harvested from the patient. I suspect this will be a very expensive process (low-medium five figures).


Unfortunately, they will not overcome “DHT resistance” on a permanent basis. That’s because sensitivity to DHT, with consequent signaling to miniaturize the follicle, is a property of the androgen receptors in the dermal papilla cells. Androgenetic Alopecia sufferers are burdened with too many due to their genetics. The Stemson Therapeutics folks are very talented and are likely to generate dermal papilla cell linings of their follicles with a lower concentration of androgen receptors. The problem is that these, cells, like all others, will die. They will be replaced by cells having the original concentration of androgen receptors, and the pattern baldness will recur. The net result will be a need to repeat this process a number of times over the patient’s lifetime.


I don’t think Stemson will have that much trouble getting over the genetic modification “hurdle” with the FDA or other regulatory body. The bigger problem will be that body’s requirement for Stemson to advertise clearly that this is a temporary solution."

with all due respect foggy but you know too little about biology to talk in such tones. lol, like you actually think people at this lab do not know what you are tlaking about? do you even know what gives a cell there identity? how they are able to remain in lineage during proliferation? if what you say is true, stem cells could not exist, they proliferate and lose their identity, every cell would be pluripotent then. dermal papilla cells do in fact have stem cell properties that means that they can proliferate quite often and they can differentiate into other cells down a given line. when they proliferate(and die), their indentity is being passed on to the daughter cells. for example, you have reduced expression of the androgen receptor. how is this achieved? for example by methylation of the promotor of the AR gene(this is what can be found in the safe donor zone). when the cells devide mitotically, this pattern is being passed on to the daughter cell in this case for example by an enzyme called Methyltransferasen. this is a example of epeginetics, a modification to the genome without actually changing the genome. this way, cells can have an identity and the important part is that this identity is being passed on to the daughter. this is why for example a liver cell which can devide over the course of its life does not suddenly become a brain cell when it proliferates. now, this is the same with genes that dont affect the indentity. it is the same process.

one aspect has definitely not been understood and that is, there is very little mitotic activity in the dermal papilla, yet, the cells die and get renewed. where do they come from? it is believed that it is the role of the dermal sheath cells and epithelial stem cells to repopulate the dermal papille at the end of each hair cycle.

Hair Follicle Dermal Stem Cells Regenerate the Dermal Sheath, Repopulate the Dermal Papilla, and Modulate Hair Type

The dermal papilla (DP) provide instructive signals required to activate epithelial progenitors and initiate hair follicle regeneration. DP cell numbe…

www.sciencedirect.com

of course this is something to be figured out. but it is definitely not the case that the next generation of cells necesarily is susceptible to androgens.

if that would be the case, how do you example the persistency of a hair transplant? like, these DP cells die eventually as well. and so what? they pass their indentity on to the next generation. and if stemson creates a craft that has the signature of a hair transplant graft, what exactly would be the difference here? biologically, it is the same concept.

furthermore i really really hope that by the time stemson has anything to report, we will at least have a MAINTENANCE treatment, then this would be a non issue anyway. it would be f*****g insane if hair cloning was possible before stopping of hair loss

 

[scientist_0005]

also it is not true that you have too many androgen receptors due to your genetics or at least, that is not the culprit of it. the expression of that AR is the problem. the hair on the back of your head has the exact same genes. but they dont fall out. why? the AR there is barely expressed. of course expression can be and most likely is a result of genetics but you can engineer cells to have different expression patterns, in fact that is the entire point of cell engineering because ultimately what makes an IPC different from a skin cell? what genes it expressed and the modifications to the genome(not changing the actual code)

 

[froggy7]

"There are several problems with this therapy
I don’t mean the effectiveness of the drug
The first is funding because they need money for research
As we all know who thinks to give money in research wants the money invested very quickly and not in 10 years.
It’s the economy.
Another problem when they publish therapy for alopecia
because it is a very demanding process
It will be many years before clinics are trained for this type of treatment"

 

[werefckd]

Geoff looked timid in his last interviews. In that most recent one he sounded somewhat more optimistic.

His answers are interesting but also somewhat vague and I can understand why. The most important fact though is that they recently managed to successfully raise their $15M series A round. This is the first time a company focusing solely on curing hair loss was able to raise that amount of money - by far. And this speaks volumes.

The bottom line is no fund would put $15M in a company that didn't have any recent meaningful progress to show, so the contrary is true, they are progressing. And now with the brand new funding they have the financial means to go hard after the next milestones.

And let's not forget they are already way ahead experiments with mice and are doing pre clinical studies with large animals. This is also a first in the hair cloning field.

 

[werefckd]

Another thing that we need to keep in mind is that "clinical trials" really mean different things for Stemson vs. the other hair loss companies.

When Histogen/Follica/Shiseido/etc. start a clinical trial, what they are *really* doing is trying to find out if their stuff works or not.

With Stemson is different. When they start their clinical trials they will already know their product works, because by then they will be already growing human hairs in animals with human skin.

So Stemson starting clinical trials will basically mean: we know it works, we just want to prove it is safe on humans and nothing goes unexpectedly (and maybe test some different protocols for optimization reasons).

That is why I'm not that disappointed that Stemson still doesn't have a clear date to start the clinical trials. Because I know that once they announce that it will probably mean they are confident they have the cure ready.

 

[werefckd]

Nah, he said many things you ignored.
1. They still need to learn how to control the hair quality.
2. The hair is still not dht restitent
3. They probbly know how to do it “by hands” but they trying to find a way to scale this thing up.
4. The hair probbly dosent survive many cycle which is the part he mention is chalenge not to lose the cells the produce the hair, which is way you saw the hair on mice but who know how many cycle the hair survived…

Not ignoring, that is why they haven't announced clinical trials yet. Because once they solve the problems you mentioned, they will start the trials. That is the point of what I wrote: that clinical trials will mean that they have solved most if not all the problems they are currently working on.

So the clinical trials will act as confirmation, not as discovery (like the other hair loss companies use it for).

 

[werefckd]

You guys are freaking out too much about the dht thing. Even if their hairs end up not being dht resistant (and that is a big if), I wouldn't mind doing maintenance refills every 5-10 years or so on the new NW1 scalp I will get thanks to them.

 

[DuncanOP]

You guys are freaking out too much about the dht thing. Even if their hairs end up not being dht resistant (and that is a big if), I wouldn't mind doing maintenance refills every 5-10 years or so on my NW0 scalp I will get thanks to them.

If it is dht resistant doesn't mean too much to me. The ability to clone the hair is more important.

We already have dutasteride/finasteride and probably others products as resources in the near future to handle with hair loss. What we need is something to "regrowth" perfectly I think.

What he said in last interview? Anything realted to the guarantee something or reduced the time expectation to they go to the next step in their timeline? Or it was just about an improvement in their model to test the cloned hair?

 

[scientist_0005]

lots of scientists here, stemson is searching for applicants why dont you all just apply?

 

[pegasus2]

They're still in early preclinical phase. It's going to be a long time before you have to worry about it.

 

[werefckd]

If it is dht resistant doesn't mean too much to me. The ability to clone the hair is more important.

We already have dutasteride/finasteride and probably others products as resources in the near future to handle with hair loss. What we need is something to "regrowth" perfectly I think.

What he said in last interview? Anything realted to the guarantee something or reduced the time expectation to they go to the next step in their timeline? Or it was just about an improvement in their model to test the cloned hair?

He didn't mention any timelines. I think they are having good progress but he is playing safe with his words now. They just raised their series A so they have no reason to hype things up now (except maybe for hiring purposes). Geoff mentioned in the interview that he is focusing mostly on internal company stuff now.

If they happen to have a breakthrough in their research now it will be wiser to keep it private until they are planning to raise their next round. I think that's exactly the strategy Geoff is using currently. Kind of cool down the expectations now and over deliver later.

 

[werefckd]

It is true that Stemson is in early pre clinical stage.

It's also true that they are in early clinical stage AND just raised $15M, which greatly increases the odds of success of them completing this stage.

 

[froggy7]

"If I may suggest a follow on question that is very relevant:


Nobody has asked them yet about how close to a natural human hair is the best hair they can currently create right now.


In the last paper they published (years ago), they were using human iPSC to get the DP cells, but the epithelial cells were still taken from mice. And the hair didn’t look natural in the picture they provided (compared to a human hair). It was a breakthrough as a proof of concept, but we would expect that they are way ahead of that milestone nowadays.


My question is: if, as of now, they are able to produce a de novo hair with 100% human IPSC, and how close it looks to a real human hair (even if they can’t get their best result consistently yet).


I know they are probably won’t do it but if they could share with us a picture of what a de novo hair created with their tech currently looks like it would be amazing!"

 

[froggy7]

"On one hand I am enthusiast for having very qualified people working on such an ambitious project with money and investments to back them up. On the other hand this all sounds like something in the realm of possibilites, but still far away from being reality – how can one expect hair cloning to be available if they still have no idea when they will conduct trials nor if they can produce dht resistant hair?
If I have to be realistic my generation (25 – 35 yo ) will probably have to still go for hair transplant and hopefully rely on kintor or cassiopea to maintain as better and safer alternatives of finasteride. Unless we get some major breakthrough like crisps or mrna that can “bypass” the hair cloning thing and cure us"

 

[scientist_0005]

They more far away then ppl think.
They still dont know how to control alot of things in the process of making a legit treatment. In my opnion? The most important thing is creating hair that dosent die after 2-3 cycles. Tha quality dosent matter much i wont might rocking a buzz cut if i have head full of hair

it is honestly kind of hilarious to read these texts about what some forum member thinks does not matter lol. as if they would invest half a billion dollars for mediocre hair so that the average non HairLossTalk.com subscriber can get a buzz cut. if they are yielding for anything but non cosmetically good hair its pathetic and even less interesting for investors than it already is(which it is). frankly i think this entire discussion is quite insane so many years out with such detailed discussion. most likely scenario is delays in the process, loss of funding, the end. anyone remember intercytex?

 

[froggy7]

I believe that in some point hair cloning would be a thing. Its just a matter of time.
Altho there still not cure in the next years .
The next treatment are insanly close to the cure.
Ar degrader, scarless healing,Bayer solution.

all those new approuch are way more intresting and some of them in thoery should almost “cure “ hairloss.

yes, but what will help restore hair to people who have become bald? what is the option other than cloning?

 

[pegasus2]

Stemson hasn't solved all the problems they thought they had when they started experimenting on pigs. There's no telling how long it will take them to figure it out, but they are well funded so there's a better chance they succeed than intercytex. Tsuji's approach is more fleshed out, and he is almost certain now to be the first to grow new hair on a human head. If you're not very rich just forget about hair cloning.