The Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[ali777]

I'm gonna put the issue of Holocaust aside, I don't know much about it....

Defending tax evasion? Tax evasion is the same as stealing my money. Anyone who steals my money deserves to rot in prison. I can't believe you are defending criminals stealing MY money. If you don't want to pay tax, don't use the roads, the schools, hospitals, defense systems, etc built with MY money. Go and live in Iran, as far as I know Iran doesn't collect taxes.

The other things have to be answered by the Americans. I don't know about them....

I know a terror suspect can be arrested in Britain and held for a certain time. If there is enough proof that the person in question is a potential terrorist, there is nothing wrong with trying to extract information from him. That's protecting my civil liberties. When he's released and if he can prove his innocence, he can sue the government. That's his right as well, and I will support his rights at the same time. You have to understand that in the EU, even the criminals have rights.

Well aren't you an obedient civilian!

Let me explain something to you friend. Lets take a leaf out of third world countries books..

BIG corporations should be paying tax. Huge money earners should be paying tax. Joe Blow earning 50k a year to feed a family should NOT be paying tax.

Joe Blow who needs that extra $150 a week should NOT be jailed for not paying tax.

Tax money that FUNDS BAILOUTS that FUNDS ILLEGAL WARS that ULTIMATELY GOES INTO THE POCKETS OF THE WEALTHY.

It's the MIDDLE CLASS TAX that keeps the Elite.. ELITE.

So learn where your tax money really goes before worrying about people not paying it. If tax money REALLY went where it was theortically meant to.. The U.S would be UTOPIA.

First of all, I'm not an obedient civilian. I speak my mind, I'm a very outspoken person. Just like I'm saying I don't support the war in Iraq, I say other things as well.

Joe who is on $150 a week doesn't pay tax. Get your facts right. There are tax bands, and the UK cut-off point is at about $150 a week right now. No one pays tax for the first $150 a week.

If big corporations don't pay a tax, then they should be investigated for fraud and the responsible put in jail.

Why am I defending my tax system????? You sort out your own. 50% of the high school graduates in the UK go on to study a higher degree, because the tax system works, there is enough money to educate 50% of the population. At least we have a middle class to keep the elite, you on the other hand have nothing.... nada...

Now let's look at the Middle East.... I'm just gonna say it without confirming my knowledge, as far as I know there has been only 1 or 2 Muslim Noble prize winner(s). There are more books written in Greece in Greek, then there are books written in Arabic. That's a country of 10 million compared to 350 million people.... I think those stats are extremely embarrassing and very telling for the state of social services in the Middle East.

If your tax system is so good, go and live in your dark ages...

When your social services are better than mine, you can come and criticise my tax system... otherwise, you have to admit your failures...

PS: (Edit)

I looked it up... Various sources list the number of "Muslim" Nobel prize winners between 5-11. If only scientific breakthroughs are taken into account, there are 3 Muslim winners with only 1 of them being a practicing Muslim, and he's from Pakistani origin, so he doesn't count.... The worst part is that, the number of winners that carried out their research in the Middle East is ZERO... The total number of Nobel prize winners for the Middle East, outside Peace prize, is ONE, an Egyptian author. There are also 5 Nobel Peace prize winners, so the total number is 6....

You can have the Turkish guy from 2006, just to make the number look more respectable. So, the total is a respectable 7.... I would like to apologise for my previous mistake and correct myself that the number is not 1 or 2....

I'm sure you are going to be thinking about your own good the next time you are filling in your tax returns... Who cares about the state of the education system in the ME? Tax is haram, Zakah is halal... Only obedient idiots like us need schools...

 

[Smooth]

Edit later: theres one thing i dont get with you conspiracy belivers; why would the US bomb the twins to begin with? what are the intrests?.. i really mean it? why would they US want to invade Iraq and Apgha? they satated that it was for the nukelear facilities right? if thats the case then i m 100% suppot the invasion, if its vengens then im not so sure, but eitherway both are valid reason in my book...

Iraq only holds one of the biggest oil reserves in the world. Oil money (black gold) only accounts for a one of the biggest income funders in the world.

George W. Bush is only the director of an oil company himself.

Dick Cheney only leads the infrastructure business that is building the Afghan-Iraq gas pipeline..

I mean.. just.. small.. details.

It could be, but if you havent paid any atention lately.... Gas prices NEVER BEEN SO f*****g HIGH !! if you invade a county for its oil then you would TRY TO SELL THE PRODUCT !!!
Awe another small detail.... why would they want to invade for oil if world is shifting to an alternative energies.......... sober up!

ALOT of people got rich from the two wars. Alot of important people. They had big stakes in this war.

another detail for you.... people are not getting rich, although you might think they would after a war, yet we are at the beginning of one of the worlds huges economic crisis..... int:

 

[The Gardener]

First off, empire, you didn't respond to my "quote mining" point backed up with actual citations that clearly show comprehensive intellectual dishonesty and distortion of actual quotations from observers, that the consipiracists used to fabricate fiction. Its right there in black and white.

As for the Pentagon and WTC, here is my "rebbuttle"....

Click on any of the topics in the box at the top and you'll get taken to a point by point analysis:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 6#bigplane

On a side note, I'd probably agree with you on some of the motivations that some global "players" have in terms of consolidating power, etc... Its just the mechanics of your 9/11 story that I take disagreement with.

For example, lets say, just hypothetically speaking, that you wanted to stage an event similar to 9/11 in order to further some shadowy political goal. And, you have two choices, two scenarios, with which you can carry this out.

SCENARIO ONE - Gardener's suggested method:
Hire some known terrorists to do the job for you. You already have some splinter cells that have connections with the Pakistani ISI, and they have well trained operatives who have been looking for an opening like this. Get them some passports (easy), teach them some basic flying skills (easy), and smuggle some boxcutters onto a plane in order to get access to the targets (moderately difficult).

Risk that any of the participants might compromise the plan? Very low. The participants are highly motivated out of their own self interest to keep the plans secure.

SCENARIO TWO - The Conspiracists method:
Have federal agents plant bombs in the WTC (very difficult.. the building has 16,000 occupants, thats a LOT of pairs of eyes to avoid. It also is home to the NY port authority security force.... but I guess you could pay off some of them to ensure that the placement remains confidential... but, how do you know which NYPA authorities might turn patriot on you and leak the plot? Very risky)

Have federal agents sneak boxcutters onto an airplane and take the target. (easy). But, if these folks are connected to the CIA, and not true america-hating cretins, how do you know that there might not be some patriots among them who will conspire against YOU?

Oh, but I forgot, flight 77 never really hit the Pentagon... so, you need to set up explosives or some sort of projectile there to create the damage... and you need to somehow redirect the REAL flight 77 to some alternate location. I suppose you could land Flight 77 in Cleveland... which would require paying off scores of air traffic controllers, as well has a good portion of the ground crew in Cleveland. Either that, or perhaps fire the existing crew and staff, and replace them with crew and staff of your own... of course this greatly increases the number of people who are somehow involved with the plot, and increases the risk of compromise. And what do you do with the passengers on flight 77? Kill them? I guess now you have more people you'll need to buy off, more firewalls to create.

I mean, I could go on and on... it would just make no sense...

 

[HughJass]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

 

[The Gardener]

That's disgraceful.

 

[Bryan]

We've been through this many times..... And it wasn't a joke....

If that wasn't a joke, then there's not THAT much difference between you and the crazed rantings of "Empire". To attempt to make a direct comparison between Saddam Hussein and George W. Bush is contemptible. You should be ashamed of yourself.

The main reasons for invading Iraq were: support for Al-Qaida, and WMD.

The whole world knows, Iraq didn't tolerate Al-Qaida. The whole world used to tell Bush that he's reasons are made up and there is no proof.

What time-line are you referring to when you say that "the whole world used to tell Bush..."? What do you say we avoid any after-the-fact post-invasion analasis of the evidence (when we eventually found out there apparently were no WMDs), and stick to what we knew BEFORE the invasion occurred?

WMD: There was never a proof that they existed.

The Bush Administration pushed too heavily to make a case for WMDs with what they actually had at the time, but nevertheless there WAS a good reason to be very suspicious about what the Iraqis were doing: they didn't cooperate fully with the UN inspection teams. That was a BIG mistake for them.

The whole world is better off without Bush.

I do think that Bush should never have been elected President, but there's a BIG difference between saying that, and saying that there's not much difference between Saddam Hussein and George W. Bush. That shows you've gone completely off the deep end.

 

[ali777]

I missed this post....

Holy Christ... I've never seen an agenda come into practice so brilliantly. Your living, breathing robots!

You actually think your opinions are yours. It's been drilled into your head so long, you now think it's your own values. Pay taxes, join the army, kill the bad guys, trust the government.

Allah gave you a brain to think. I wish you used it once in awhile before you post here....

1. Taxes: I already answered this. When you have social services better than ours, you can come and tell us that we are wrong....
2. Army: As far as I know, from the regulars in this forum, it's only the Israelis (Smooth) that have a compulsory army service. Middle Eastern countries, on the other hand, probably ALL have a compulsory army service. (With Iraq being in transition, they probably don't have an army)
3. Kill the bad guys: We have to defend our freedom, which you do not have.

4. Trust the government (this is going to be a long one): Two of the main factors in "modern" democracy are 1) openness 2) accountability. Of course we don't trust the government, they are humans who can make mistakes. That's why they have to be open and accountable to us. We have the right to speak out and question their decision making. We have civil organisation that constantly monitor the actions of the government.

I somehow doubt you can speak against any Middle Eastern government. You are probably going to be put in jail for asking your government to be accountable. As far as I know, civil organisations do not exist in the Middle East, not that you have civil laws in the first place. Your laws are based on oral traditions that were recorded 100s of years after the death of the Prophet.

Just because, you can't ask your government to be open and accountable (blasphemy is punishable by death), and you have to do your army service, you are a bigger robot than us. Worst of all, you probably don't read any books or do proper research before you speak. You probably go to your local tea house, and hear how bad the Jews are. You believe everything you hear, and then go to Internet forums to spread your poison.

Have you ever heard a Middle Eastern guy criticise the actions of Taliban, or the ethnic cleansing in Darfur? Clean your own house before you criticise the rest of the world.

Maybe one day you can earn the freedom to use the brain Allah gave you. Only then, you can speak freely and open proper discussion channels in your own country. Until then, you have no right to insult us....

Hopefully, one day you will be free to think and express your opinions in your own country... My prayers are with you...

 

[Empire]

To Ali:

First of all, I'm Irish Agnostic, I don't know who your talking to when you make reference
to "Allah" and "your country".

Second of all, I refer to the $150 Joe pays in taxes, not his income.

Big corporations AREN'T investigated and THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. Why would
they investigate themselves? The politicians are THEIR PUPPETS.

Of course there has only been a few select Muslim Nobel Prize Winners you doofus because whos
handing them out? And who has the resources to even be worthy in the first place?

Of course Mohammed Mohammed from Dafur isn't going to win a Nobel Prize when he doesn't even
have a spoon to eat with!

Your arguments have no merit whatsoever!


To Smooth:

Isn't it ironic gas prices shot through the roof AFTER the invasion?

For someone from Israel I thought you might be a bit more business minded (to generalize!)
If you were an Elite group that NOW thanks to the Iraq war had a near monopoly on oil,
THERE WOULD BE NO COMPETITION TO DROP YOUR PRICES FOR!

Thats the biggest proof in the pudding! No competition meaning Oil Prices can go as high as they
want thanks to Corporations now owning Iraqi oil fields!

And people AREN'T getting rich? Are you kidding me? The people who are rebuilding Iraq taking Iraqi
money? The people who now own the oil fields? The weapons that are being sold? You think NO ONE
is getting rich from this???

What the hell does Infolive TV teach you guys in Israel?

 

[ali777]

We've been through this many times..... And it wasn't a joke....

If that wasn't a joke, then there's not THAT much difference between you and the crazed rantings of "Empire". To attempt to make a direct comparison between Saddam Hussein and George W. Bush is contemptible. You should be ashamed of yourself.

The main reasons for invading Iraq were: support for Al-Qaida, and WMD.

The whole world knows, Iraq didn't tolerate Al-Qaida. The whole world used to tell Bush that he's reasons are made up and there is no proof.

What time-line are you referring to when you say that "the whole world used to tell Bush..."? What do you say we avoid any after-the-fact post-invasion analasis of the evidence (when we eventually found out there apparently were no WMDs), and stick to what we knew BEFORE the invasion occurred?

WMD: There was never a proof that they existed.

The Bush Administration pushed too heavily to make a case for WMDs with what they actually had at the time, but nevertheless there WAS a good reason to be very suspicious about what the Iraqis were doing: they didn't cooperate fully with the UN inspection teams. That was a BIG mistake for them.

The whole world is better off without Bush.

I do think that Bush should never have been elected President, but there's a BIG difference between saying that, and saying that there's not much difference between Saddam Hussein and George W. Bush. That shows you've gone completely off the deep end.

Let's get the facts right.... Was Saddam an evil man? YES

Was Bush as bad as him? Probably not, but the fact that his administration manufactured evidence just to start a war makes him evil too.

Yes... I did say manufactured....

The Al-Qaida link was never proven. Actually, the Al-Qaida link was downplayed anyway. However, around that time, the word "terrorist" was used as a blanket term to imply Al-Qaida. Ask any American and they will tell you that Iraq was Al-Qaida. That was the spin the administration put on it. Despite the administration never claiming there was a link, people somehow were lead to believe there was a link...

WMD: You are right. Iraq was very stupid to deny access to the inspectors. Even if Iraq was innocent, that action on its own gives the impression that they had something to hide... We agree on this point... However, some of the inspectors were on record stating that Iraq had no WMD capability and that what they saw was extremely basic.

I don't believe there was any evidence beyond that. The British government had the famous "sexed up" report, that had evidence from unknown sources. The sources were kept secret, but all the independent observers and civil organisations rejected their validity....

Actually, instead of me typing, just read this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_rel ... on_of_Iraq

You have to understand that you, the Americans, were living under fear and any action was better than no action. So, it was easy to sell the ideas to the American public. My guess is because many European countries didn't want to get involved in that particular war, we had different view of the events.

You might have noticed how the whole war has turned from "war on terror" to "operation liberation Iraq". That's because there is no proof that Iraq was involved in 911, or they were planning a terrorist attack on the US.

 

[Empire]

WHO WANTS TO SEE WHAT THE ANIMALS CALLED ISRAEL DO :d

PUT UR HANDS UP!

HAPPY WATCHING

[youtube:2uhvqdvl]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGITh9HPJ7g&feature=channel[/youtube:2uhvqdvl]

 

[Old Baldy]

Empire: Would you temper your rabid anti-American, anti-Christian/Judaism attitude if I started posting stories/videos of attrocities committed by Muslims?

Or are the atrocities committed by Muslims always justified in your opinion?

And, in response to your previous post explaining to me that America is a tryannical system. You are nuts (i.e., completely out of your mind IMHO)!!

 

[Bryan]

Let's get the facts right.... Was Saddam an evil man? YES

Was Bush as bad as him? Probably not...

No sh*t? You think maybe George W. Bush was just an ittsy-bittsy teeny-weeny bit less evil than Saddam Hussein, do you??

Jesus Christ, this is getting ridiculous.

 

[Old Baldy]

Let's get the facts right.... Was Saddam an evil man? YES

Was Bush as bad as him? Probably not...

No sh*t? You think maybe George W. Bush was just an ittsy-bittsy teeny-weeny bit less evil than Saddam Hussein, do you??

Jesus Christ, this is getting ridiculous.

I guess we're just a couple of old, brainwashed robots Bryan!!?? :dunno:

 

[Empire]

Empire: Would you temper your rabid anti-American, anti-Christian/Judaism attitude if I started posting stories/videos of attrocities committed by Muslims?

Or are the atrocities committed by Muslims always justified in your opinion?

And, in response to your previous post explaining to me that America is a tryannical system. You are nuts (i.e., completely out of your mind IMHO)!!

My strong stance doesn't come from a one sided position. I'm against 70% of the Islam position.

But heres the issue at hand.. US/Israel declared War on Islam (it's quite obvious) and made accusations of the Islamic World of attributes which THEY THEMSELVES HAVE.

And nothing in this world shits me more than a large scale hypocrit.

So when U.S (I'll call it The 2nd State of Israel, because lets face it, Israel says jump, U.S Administration ask How High?) wants to criticize the Islamic world, plenty of people like me are going to stand tall and tell the U.S/Israel to Shut The f*** Up.

No one started as many wars as the U.S, Israel and Britain, lets be clear about that.

The IRA from my homeland put Britian back in it's place, so Muslim countries have adopted their guerella style defence systems.

 

[Empire]

Anyways, I've decided to stop contributing to these types of forums. My arguments can only be raised amongst the educated, not amongst Fox News watchers.

Good luck with your quests.

 

[The Gardener]

My arguments can only be raised amongst the educated, not amongst Fox News watchers.

Good god... that's the strawman of the century.

 

[kadosh]

Empire: Would you temper your rabid anti-American, anti-Christian/Judaism attitude if I started posting stories/videos of attrocities committed by Muslims?

Or are the atrocities committed by Muslims always justified in your opinion?

And, in response to your previous post explaining to me that America is a tryannical system. You are nuts (i.e., completely out of your mind IMHO)!!

My strong stance doesn't come from a one sided position. I'm against 70% of the Islam position.

But heres the issue at hand.. US/Israel declared War on Islam (it's quite obvious) and made accusations of the Islamic World of attributes which THEY THEMSELVES HAVE.

And nothing in this world shits me more than a large scale hypocrit.

So when U.S (I'll call it The 2nd State of Israel, because lets face it, Israel says jump, U.S Administration ask How High?) wants to criticize the Islamic world, plenty of people like me are going to stand tall and tell the U.S/Israel to Shut The f*ck Up.

No one started as many wars as the U.S, Israel and Britain, lets be clear about that.

The IRA from my homeland put Britian back in it's place, so Muslim countries have adopted their guerella style defence systems.

You forgot europe . almost every major country is making legislation to limit immigration and national parties are growing in popularity . the common opinion is that it have to do with the islamic community but i cant believe that since they seem so peacfull !!
who does the muslims in sweden have to defend themselves from ?
dont they have the same rights like every other civilian there ?
why do they riot like maniacs ?
and this is just one example . similar behavior is common in other countries . what about the BBC footage of islamic preachers talking about taking over europe ? was the war declared on islam or is it the other way around ?

 

[Cassin]

My arguments can only be raised amongst the educated, not amongst Fox News watchers.

Good god... that's the strawman of the century.

I always wonder how many foreigners have actually sat and watched foxnews instead of seeing clips on youtube that could easily be out of context or simply going by what they have been told.

 

[Empire]

Empire: Would you temper your rabid anti-American, anti-Christian/Judaism attitude if I started posting stories/videos of attrocities committed by Muslims?

Or are the atrocities committed by Muslims always justified in your opinion?

And, in response to your previous post explaining to me that America is a tryannical system. You are nuts (i.e., completely out of your mind IMHO)!!

My strong stance doesn't come from a one sided position. I'm against 70% of the Islam position.

But heres the issue at hand.. US/Israel declared War on Islam (it's quite obvious) and made accusations of the Islamic World of attributes which THEY THEMSELVES HAVE.

And nothing in this world shits me more than a large scale hypocrit.

So when U.S (I'll call it The 2nd State of Israel, because lets face it, Israel says jump, U.S Administration ask How High?) wants to criticize the Islamic world, plenty of people like me are going to stand tall and tell the U.S/Israel to Shut The f*ck Up.

No one started as many wars as the U.S, Israel and Britain, lets be clear about that.

The IRA from my homeland put Britian back in it's place, so Muslim countries have adopted their guerella style defence systems.

You forgot europe . almost every major country is making legislation to limit immigration and national parties are growing in popularity . the common opinion is that it have to do with the islamic community but i cant believe that since they seem so peacfull !!
who does the muslims in sweden have to defend themselves from ?
dont they have the same rights like every other civilian there ?
why do they riot like maniacs ?
and this is just one example . similar behavior is common in other countries . what about the BBC footage of islamic preachers talking about taking over europe ? was the war declared on islam or is it the other way around ?

I will quickly respond to that.

So of the 1.5 billion Muslims, how many did you see participating in those events? 1 billion? 500 million? 250 million? ... Yeah, didn't think so.

Good luck!

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Anyways, I've decided to stop contributing to these types of forums. My arguments can only be raised amongst the educated, not amongst Fox News watchers.

Good luck with your quests.

This is where I stay clear from the Off Topic section and stick to hair loss and accept that some things in the world.. never ever change.

In summary... Nothing will change.. they will get there way.. And the fact remains, you deserve it. People of this stupidity should be told what to think and do.. because you don't deserve otherwise.

So I'm all for it

Nothing more to say. Enjoy

You have said this a few times thoughout this thread since you joined and yet you continue to post. I could be wrong though as I too watch Fox News.