What is the most effective way to lower Cholesterol?

[Old Baldy]

It will take alot or reading to come to that conclusion.

FWIW, I believe Bryan is 100 guzillion percent correct.

Bryan, I think alot of people are beginning to realize what you're saying is probably true and focusing on the "simple notion" is becoming more and more passe` IMHO.

Doctor does have a point relative to using statins if your levels are really bad. That's pretty rare though from what I've read.

 

[LookingGood!]

It will take alot or reading to come to that conclusion.

FWIW, I believe Bryan is 100 guzillion percent correct.

Bryan, I think alot of people are beginning to realize what you're saying is probably true and focusing on the "simple notion" is becoming more and more passe` IMHO.

Doctor does have a point relative to using statins if your levels are really bad. That's pretty rare though from what I've read.

Ok great you like Bryan's post but what if these levels stay. Diet and exercise only attribute to 20% of the change in cholesterol. The other 80% is genetic. So what if I have the familial connection? So I take grapseed 3 times a day? So how does that help me if I am not taking in any fats/cholesterol from outside sources?? Plaque may begin to form and what happens then? Statins work very effectively and do their job but I dont want to take them.

 

[Bryan]

B,

Is there evidence that this works or all hype? I looked thru google/ask.com and minimal research.

Oh my god...if you want to read all about it, just go to PubMed and do a search on "LDL oxidation carotene tocopherol"! It will cough-up several pages of studies dating from the 1980's all the way to the present. One of them is below, which I selected out of dozens of others just because they briefly describe the process involved (free radicals --> oxidation --> foam cells --> fatty streak --> plaque), and how that process can be substantially inhibited through antioxidant consumption. There are many many other studies that have been done on this same very important subject, so don't think that this is the only one:

Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 1995 Jan;35(1-2):83-98.

"Cardiovascular disease and nutrient antioxidants: role of low-density lipoprotein oxidation." Frei B.

Boston University School of Medicine, Whitaker Cardiovascular Institute, Massachusetts 02118, USA.

Increasing evidence indicates that oxidative modification of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) is causally related to atherosclerosis. Oxidatively modified LDL (oxLDL), in contrast to native LDL, is taken up avidly by macrophages, leading to formation of lipid-laden foam cells. Foam cells are pathognomonic of the atherosclerotic fatty streak. Modified LDL may also promote atherosclerosis by many other mechanisms, such as recruitment and retention of monocyte-macrophages, T-lymphocytes, and smooth muscle cells in the arterial intima, and cytotoxicity toward endothelial cells and macrophage-derived foam cells. The "oxidation hypothesis of atherosclerosis" is supported by a number of in vivo findings, such as the presence of oxLDL in atherosclerotic lesions, and increased titers of autoantibodies against modified LDL in patients with atherosclerosis. As a corollary of the oxidation hypothesis of atherosclerosis, antioxidants that can inhibit LDL oxidation may act as antiatherogens. This conception is supported by animal studies showing that antioxidants such as probucol, butylated hydroxytoluene, and alpha-tocopherol can slow the progression of atherosclerosis. Epidemiological and clinical data indicate a protective role of dietary antioxidants against cardiovascular disease, including vitamin E, beta-carotene, and vitamin C. Likewise, basic research studies on LDL oxidation have demonstrated a protective role for antioxidants, present either in the aqueous environment of LDL or associated with the lipoprotein itself. More studies are needed to establish the effectiveness and determine the required doses of specific antioxidants to prevent and possibly treat cardiovascular disease.

 

[sublime]

Just to let you guys know with diet and simply walking a couple times a week I went from having pre-hypertension to scoring in low are of normal range. I was not to far off from actually having hypertension.

I was a vegetarian, which many thought should not suffer from these types of issues. I adjusted to a mostly raw diet and my tests are near perfect. This was a phenominal result considering my last tests showed that I was headed directly for heart disease or something worse. I would say the biggest thing that my diet cut out was hydrogenated oils and really just processed food.

Many people will tell you that diet can't change a thing. Believe me it can. I say this to note that your health is not determined to by your genetics. You will have genetic influences on your health but a very healthy diet will over come these issues. If you eat like your parents expect to get diseases like your parents.

 

[LookingGood!]

B,

Is there evidence that this works or all hype? I looked thru google/ask.com and minimal research.

Oh my god...if you want to read all about it, just go to PubMed and do a search on "LDL oxidation carotene tocopherol"! It will cough-up several pages of studies dating from the 1980's all the way to the present. One of them is below, which I selected out of dozens of others just because they briefly describe the process involved (free radicals --> oxidation --> foam cells --> fatty streak --> plaque), and how that process can be substantially inhibited through antioxidant consumption. There are many many other studies that have been done on this same very important subject, so don't think that this is the only one:

Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 1995 Jan;35(1-2):83-98.

"Cardiovascular disease and nutrient antioxidants: role of low-density lipoprotein oxidation." Frei B.

Boston University School of Medicine, Whitaker Cardiovascular Institute, Massachusetts 02118, USA.

Increasing evidence indicates that oxidative modification of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) is causally related to atherosclerosis. Oxidatively modified LDL (oxLDL), in contrast to native LDL, is taken up avidly by macrophages, leading to formation of lipid-laden foam cells. Foam cells are pathognomonic of the atherosclerotic fatty streak. Modified LDL may also promote atherosclerosis by many other mechanisms, such as recruitment and retention of monocyte-macrophages, T-lymphocytes, and smooth muscle cells in the arterial intima, and cytotoxicity toward endothelial cells and macrophage-derived foam cells. The "oxidation hypothesis of atherosclerosis" is supported by a number of in vivo findings, such as the presence of oxLDL in atherosclerotic lesions, and increased titers of autoantibodies against modified LDL in patients with atherosclerosis. As a corollary of the oxidation hypothesis of atherosclerosis, antioxidants that can inhibit LDL oxidation may act as antiatherogens. This conception is supported by animal studies showing that antioxidants such as probucol, butylated hydroxytoluene, and alpha-tocopherol can slow the progression of atherosclerosis. Epidemiological and clinical data indicate a protective role of dietary antioxidants against cardiovascular disease, including vitamin E, beta-carotene, and vitamin C. Likewise, basic research studies on LDL oxidation have demonstrated a protective role for antioxidants, present either in the aqueous environment of LDL or associated with the lipoprotein itself. More studies are needed to establish the effectiveness and determine the required doses of specific antioxidants to prevent and possibly treat cardiovascular disease.

Bryan,

The thing is, what if I am not taking in any fats? I am strictly no fats,no trans fats, no processed garbage etc. So where is this cholesterol coming from? If I dont take in fats then whats the sense of taking antioxidants if there is no fat to attack?

 

[Bryan]

You CAN'T not take in fats! There are at least two (possibly three) different fatty acids which are absolutely essential to human nutrition. You cannot survive without them. You might be eating a low-fat diet, but you can't eliminate fat entirely.

As for cholesterol...even if you don't get any at all in your diet, your body will synthesize it for its own needs.

Bryan

 

[LookingGood!]

You CAN'T not take in fats! There are at least two (possibly three) different fatty acids which are absolutely essential to human nutrition. You cannot survive without them. You might be eating a low-fat diet, but you can't eliminate fat entirely.

As for cholesterol...even if you don't get any at all in your diet, your body will synthesize it for its own needs.

Bryan

ok,let me be alittle more fundamental, then the fats I am taking in ...essentially are the fish oil pills and unsaturated, polyunsaturated etc. It has to be the fish oil pills that is raising my LDL. My LDL were 132 before this.

 

[sublime]

:innocent:

 

[docj077]

You CAN'T not take in fats! There are at least two (possibly three) different fatty acids which are absolutely essential to human nutrition. You cannot survive without them. You might be eating a low-fat diet, but you can't eliminate fat entirely.

As for cholesterol...even if you don't get any at all in your diet, your body will synthesize it for its own needs.

Bryan

ok,let me be alittle more fundamental, then the fats I am taking in ...essentially are the fish oil pills and unsaturated, polyunsaturated etc. It has to be the fish oil pills that is raising my LDL. My LDL were 132 before this.

Two things.

Check the cholesterol and fat levels on your protein shakes or whatever it is you use. If it's from GNC, then you're pretty much guaranteed to get 40% of your daily cholesterol intake with one shake.

Also, fish oil doesn't raise LDL cholesterol, but if it did the reason would be its inability to find LDL receptors as it should decrease their numbers.

 

[Bryan]

From MSNBC by Dr Ornesh.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14682967/site/newsweek/

Well, my goodness! I see that Dr. Ornish is slowly making progress, because he at least pays one sentence of lip-service to the "oxidized LDL" theory of atherosclerosis by mentioning the antioxidant effects of curcumin. I suppose that's better than nothing, because I've never heard him say anything at all about it before.

Hey, doesn't Dr. Ornish look a little bit like Jerry Seinfeld?

Bryan

 

[docj077]

From MSNBC by Dr Ornesh.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14682967/site/newsweek/

Well, my goodness! I see that Dr. Ornish is slowly making progress, because he at least pays one sentence of lip-service to the "oxidized LDL" theory of atherosclerosis by mentioning the antioxidant effects of curcumin. I suppose that's better than nothing, because I've never heard him say anything at all about it before.

Hey, doesn't Dr. Ornish look a little bit like Jerry Seinfeld?

Bryan

I'm confused. Is there somebody in the medical field that feels as though oxidized LDL isn't a major component of atherosclerosis? Is so, they probably shouldn't be involved in medicine...at all.

 

[LookingGood!]

You CAN'T not take in fats! There are at least two (possibly three) different fatty acids which are absolutely essential to human nutrition. You cannot survive without them. You might be eating a low-fat diet, but you can't eliminate fat entirely.

As for cholesterol...even if you don't get any at all in your diet, your body will synthesize it for its own needs.

Bryan

ok,let me be alittle more fundamental, then the fats I am taking in ...essentially are the fish oil pills and unsaturated, polyunsaturated etc. It has to be the fish oil pills that is raising my LDL. My LDL were 132 before this.

Two things.

Check the cholesterol and fat levels on your protein shakes or whatever it is you use. If it's from GNC, then you're pretty much guaranteed to get 40% of your daily cholesterol intake with one shake.

Also, fish oil doesn't raise LDL cholesterol, but if it did the reason would be its inability to find LDL receptors as it should decrease their numbers.

Doctor,
So how do I find out if it cant find these receptors? Is there a specific test? I doubt your cracker jack GP would do this for a patient.
it's documented that it can raise LDL levels in some people. I may be one of them. So I should refrain from the protein shakes?? I used to be on MEt RX shakes and when I did take them my total and ratio went down 35 points. I havent been on them b/c i got tired of the taste. What do you think of Whey protein??

 

[docj077]

[quote="LookingGood!":f2221]

You CAN'T not take in fats! There are at least two (possibly three) different fatty acids which are absolutely essential to human nutrition. You cannot survive without them. You might be eating a low-fat diet, but you can't eliminate fat entirely.

As for cholesterol...even if you don't get any at all in your diet, your body will synthesize it for its own needs.

Bryan

ok,let me be alittle more fundamental, then the fats I am taking in ...essentially are the fish oil pills and unsaturated, polyunsaturated etc. It has to be the fish oil pills that is raising my LDL. My LDL were 132 before this.

Two things.

Check the cholesterol and fat levels on your protein shakes or whatever it is you use. If it's from GNC, then you're pretty much guaranteed to get 40% of your daily cholesterol intake with one shake.

Also, fish oil doesn't raise LDL cholesterol, but if it did the reason would be its inability to find LDL receptors as it should decrease their numbers.

Doctor,

it's documented that it can raise LDL levels in some people. I may be one of them. So I should refrain from the protein shakes?? I used to be on MEt RX shakes and when I did take them my total and ratio went down 35 points. I havent been on them b/c i got tired of the taste. What do you think of Whey protein??[/quote:f2221]

If it's raising LDL, it's because Fish Oil reduces LDL receptors and thus LDL receptor/LDL binding.

Also, it doesn't matter what I think of the shakes to be honest. You just need to read the nutritional information and see how much cholesterol and fat is in your shakes.

 

[Bryan]

I'm confused. Is there somebody in the medical field that feels as though oxidized LDL isn't a major component of atherosclerosis?

Probably not, because the evidence is now overwhelming. But my beef with the medical community is that the information hasn't trickled down much to the lay public by way of articles on the subject written by doctors for the lay media. I find it reprehensible that doctors would continue to harp on this same old material about avoiding dietary cholesterol and saturated fat, and focus to no end on getting THIS number UP, and THAT number DOWN, rather than looking closely at the issue with the next higher level of understanding (like why LDL causes problems in the first place).

And it's rather obvious why doctors are reluctant to do that, isn't it? They don't want to be associated with any discussion of the possible benefits of taking NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS like vitamins E and C, beta carotene, CoQ-10, selenium, the B vitamins (to reduce pro-oxidants like homocysteine), other potent antioxidants like BHT and BHA, etc. Oh no, we couldn't have THAT, could we? That would contradict the age-old advice from doctors that heart disease is caused by eating more than 3 eggs a week! :wink:

Bryan

 

[docj077]

I'm confused. Is there somebody in the medical field that feels as though oxidized LDL isn't a major component of atherosclerosis?

Probably not, because the evidence is now overwhelming. But my beef with the medical community is that the information hasn't trickled down much to the lay public by way of articles on the subject written by doctors for the lay media. I find it reprehensible that doctors would continue to harp on this same old material about avoiding dietary cholesterol and saturated fat, and focus to no end on getting THIS number UP, and THAT number DOWN, rather than looking closely at the issue with the next higher level of understanding (like why LDL causes problems in the first place).

And it's rather obvious why doctors are reluctant to do that, isn't it? They don't want to be associated with any discussion of the possible benefits of taking NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS like vitamins E and C, beta carotene, CoQ-10, selenium, the B vitamins (to reduce pro-oxidants like homocysteine), other potent antioxidants like BHT and BHA, etc. Oh no, we couldn't have THAT, could we? That would contradict the age-old advice from doctors that heart disease is caused by eating more than 3 eggs a week! :wink:

Bryan

It's unfair to assume that physicans don't try to convey the science to their patients. Unfortunately, the majority of patients can not, and often refuse to, understand the nature of their illness and biochemistry required to cure them. They come into the doctors office with a list of herbal medications/supplements and expect their physician to agree to treatments that usually haven't been proven to do much of anything.

Drugs are drugs for a reason. They undergo hundreds and thousands of hours of testing to make sure that they are the perfect agonist or antagonist to a certain molecule or receptor.

The other problem is that people don't consider hypervitaminosis as a consequence of their massive vitamin binges. The benefits don't outweigh the side effects when it comes to massive doses of any given vitamin and any doctor would be a fool to even consider recommending such a treatment regimen.

However, recommending a low cholesterol/low fat diet is not foolish. Americans are fat, lazy, and generally unhealthy. It's the only thing a doctor can do for someone who is too stubborn to get off their *** and save themselves.

 

[Felk]

Hey Doctor, do you think these levels of vitamins are too high?

"compared to Centrum®, Life Extension Two-Per-Day Tablets provides about:

* 8 times more vitamin C
* 6 times more vitamin E
* 6 times more lycopene
* 20 times more lutein
* 10 times more biotin
* 37 times more vitamin B6
* 5 times more selenium
* 50 times more vitamin B1
* 50 times more vitamin B12
* At least twice as much folic acid, zinc, and many other nutrients"

It sounds like it for some of them, no?

 

[docj077]

Hey Doctor, do you think these levels of vitamins are too high?

"compared to Centrum®, Life Extension Two-Per-Day Tablets provides about:

* 8 times more vitamin C
* 6 times more vitamin E
* 6 times more lycopene
* 20 times more lutein
* 10 times more biotin
* 37 times more vitamin B6
* 5 times more selenium
* 50 times more vitamin B1
* 50 times more vitamin B12
* At least twice as much folic acid, zinc, and many other nutrients"

It sounds like it for some of them, no?

Such high levels of vitamin E would worry me. I'm also unsure about such high levels of Selenium.

Otherwise, the rest will just make your urine really, really, really yellow.

 

[Bryan]

It's unfair to assume that physicans don't try to convey the science to their patients. Unfortunately, the majority of patients can not, and often refuse to, understand the nature of their illness and biochemistry required to cure them.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that 99% of doctors make little or no effort to explain the "oxidative theory" to their patients. Just take a look at any medically-oriented Web site that caters to heart disease, or any newspaper or magazine columns written by doctors, or radio call-in shows hosted by doctors, etc. All the chatter is about how to lower LDL and raise HDL. How to lower triglycerides. Which drug is more effective than that drug for doing those things. Which kind of exercise is better than that kind of exercise. Which foods are better for that, and which foods are worse.

If some people spend so much effort on all that and keep careful records of their own numbers and fret over them so badly when the numbers don't go the way that they want them to (our friend "LookingGood" is a good example of that), then what exactly is the doctor's excuse for not taking the discussion to a higher level?

Drugs are drugs for a reason. They undergo hundreds and thousands of hours of testing to make sure that they are the perfect agonist or antagonist to a certain molecule or receptor.

Yes, and the statin drugs work very well at what they are designed to do, which is to throw a monkey wrench into the metabolic machinery that manufactures cholesterol. That must tickle to death doctors and patients alike who were raised to think that cholesterol is a uniformly BAD substance. But it's time to take it to the next level of understanding.

The other problem is that people don't consider hypervitaminosis as a consequence of their massive vitamin binges. The benefits don't outweigh the side effects when it comes to massive doses of any given vitamin and any doctor would be a fool to even consider recommending such a treatment regimen.

I've been a "life-extender" type for over 30 years, and I have never EVER taken megadoses of vitamins (not routinely, anyway), and I don't recommend that to others. What I'm talking about regarding the oxidative theory of atherosclerosis is a more measured, more intelligent application of enlightened nutrition.

However, recommending a low cholesterol/low fat diet is not foolish. Americans are fat, lazy, and generally unhealthy. It's the only thing a doctor can do for someone who is too stubborn to get off their *** and save themselves.

It's not the ONLY thing a doctor can do, but in my opinion it's the only thing a doctor can do who is HIMSELF too lazy to get off his own *** and impart the latest scientific findings about heart disease to his patients! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Felk]

Interesting thread my fellows, I'm glad i took the time to read it all, let's keep it up.

Doctor - thanks for your take on the vitamins, i appreciate it.

Yes, and the statin drugs work very well at what they are designed to do, which is to throw a monkey wrench into the metabolic machinery that manufactures cholesterol.

Wow, I was under the impression that statins were wonderful drugs (apart from the banned Lipobay, etc.... disintegrating muscles, anyone?)

Bryan - after reading your posts for a while now it's becomming evident that your scientific knowledge isn't limited to hair loss. I'd be quite interested to hear about your "life extender" methods.

And a question for bryan, Doctor, everyone - what do you believe are the best antioxidants to supplement with?

 

[LookingGood!]

I'm confused. Is there somebody in the medical field that feels as though oxidized LDL isn't a major component of atherosclerosis?

Probably not, because the evidence is now overwhelming. But my beef with the medical community is that the information hasn't trickled down much to the lay public by way of articles on the subject written by doctors for the lay media. I find it reprehensible that doctors would continue to harp on this same old material about avoiding dietary cholesterol and saturated fat, and focus to no end on getting THIS number UP, and THAT number DOWN, rather than looking closely at the issue with the next higher level of understanding (like why LDL causes problems in the first place).

And it's rather obvious why doctors are reluctant to do that, isn't it? They don't want to be associated with any discussion of the possible benefits of taking NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS like vitamins E and C, beta carotene, CoQ-10, selenium, the B vitamins (to reduce pro-oxidants like homocysteine), other potent antioxidants like BHT and BHA, etc. Oh no, we couldn't have THAT, could we? That would contradict the age-old advice from doctors that heart disease is caused by eating more than 3 eggs a week! :wink:

Bryan

Do you know why??? It's b/c it's not cost effective in this cost containing insurance driven vehicle. I do agree with DocJ077 about people here being lazy fat and irresponsible about their health. I do agree with you about getting to the "cause" and not treat just the "symptoms" but unfortunately this is what Docs have to deal with today. It's the responsibility of the patient to be proactive about their health.