What is the most effective way to lower Cholesterol?

[sublime]

From MSNBC by Dr Ornesh.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14682967/site/newsweek/

Well, my goodness! I see that Dr. Ornish is slowly making progress, because he at least pays one sentence of lip-service to the "oxidized LDL" theory of atherosclerosis by mentioning the antioxidant effects of curcumin. I suppose that's better than nothing, because I've never heard him say anything at all about it before.

Hey, doesn't Dr. Ornish look a little bit like Jerry Seinfeld?

Bryan

I'm confused. Is there somebody in the medical field that feels as though oxidized LDL isn't a major component of atherosclerosis? Is so, they probably shouldn't be involved in medicine...at all.

I would say his results speak for themself.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=1973470&dopt=medline

For folks not into reading studies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Ornish

 

[Bryan]

I would say his results speak for themself.

As far as they go, yeah...

 

[LookingGood!]

It's unfair to assume that physicans don't try to convey the science to their patients. Unfortunately, the majority of patients can not, and often refuse to, understand the nature of their illness and biochemistry required to cure them.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that 99% of doctors make little or no effort to explain the "oxidative theory" to their patients. Just take a look at any medically-oriented Web site that caters to heart disease, or any newspaper or magazine columns written by doctors, or radio call-in shows hosted by doctors, etc. All the chatter is about how to lower LDL and raise HDL. How to lower triglycerides. Which drug is more effective than that drug for doing those things. Which kind of exercise is better than that kind of exercise. Which foods are better for that, and which foods are worse.

If some people spend so much effort on all that and keep careful records of their own numbers and fret over them so badly when the numbers don't go the way that they want them to (our friend "LookingGood" is a good example of that), then what exactly is the doctor's excuse for not taking the discussion to a higher level?

Drugs are drugs for a reason. They undergo hundreds and thousands of hours of testing to make sure that they are the perfect agonist or antagonist to a certain molecule or receptor.

Yes, and the statin drugs work very well at what they are designed to do, which is to throw a monkey wrench into the metabolic machinery that manufactures cholesterol. That must tickle to death doctors and patients alike who were raised to think that cholesterol is a uniformly BAD substance. But it's time to take it to the next level of understanding.

The other problem is that people don't consider hypervitaminosis as a consequence of their massive vitamin binges. The benefits don't outweigh the side effects when it comes to massive doses of any given vitamin and any doctor would be a fool to even consider recommending such a treatment regimen.

I've been a "life-extender" type for over 30 years, and I have never EVER taken megadoses of vitamins (not routinely, anyway), and I don't recommend that to others. What I'm talking about regarding the oxidative theory of atherosclerosis is a more measured, more intelligent application of enlightened nutrition.

Bryan

ok SO ENLIGHTEN ME? More fish, more chicken, more gren veggies, oatmeal, flaxseed meal , fruits like bluberries etc etc....Cardio cardio cardio, stress management yada yada yada.......been there done it.

 

[Old Baldy]

Like Bryan and Doctor said, take antioxidants to minimize LDL oxidation.

You know, vitamins A, B, C & E, alpha lipoic acid, grape seed extract, etc. I like juicing fresh fruits and veggies. I'm hoping juicing will get fresh antioxidants and beneficial phytochemicals into my system in order to boost immunity and help with blood vessel health, etc. I've been doing it for years and really recommend it for overall health.

Just boost your antioxidant levels. You know what I mean. Eat good for other benefits but boost your antioxidant levels at the same time. Which is usually what "eating good" does.

IMHO eating raw fruits and veggies is about the easiest way to boost antioxidant levels. Especially the deep green leafy stuff. FWIW, my favorite juice consists of juicing carrots, celery, parsley/spinach and apple. Sixteen ounces a day. There's a plethora of antioxidants and phytochemicals in that stuff. If that don't help I don't know what will.

People are WAY too worried about the raw numbers IMHO when it comes to cholesterol levels.

What I'm starting to do now (i.e., now that I'm OVER 50 YEARS OLD) is take 50mg of DHEA every other day. This is NOT FOR YOUNG MEN!! Some would say not for any man, but I disagree.

I'm sorry to say that none of this will cure my male pattern baldness though!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

[docj077]

It's unfair to assume that physicans don't try to convey the science to their patients. Unfortunately, the majority of patients can not, and often refuse to, understand the nature of their illness and biochemistry required to cure them.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that 99% of doctors make little or no effort to explain the "oxidative theory" to their patients. Just take a look at any medically-oriented Web site that caters to heart disease, or any newspaper or magazine columns written by doctors, or radio call-in shows hosted by doctors, etc. All the chatter is about how to lower LDL and raise HDL. How to lower triglycerides. Which drug is more effective than that drug for doing those things. Which kind of exercise is better than that kind of exercise. Which foods are better for that, and which foods are worse.

If some people spend so much effort on all that and keep careful records of their own numbers and fret over them so badly when the numbers don't go the way that they want them to (our friend "LookingGood" is a good example of that), then what exactly is the doctor's excuse for not taking the discussion to a higher level?

Drugs are drugs for a reason. They undergo hundreds and thousands of hours of testing to make sure that they are the perfect agonist or antagonist to a certain molecule or receptor.

Yes, and the statin drugs work very well at what they are designed to do, which is to throw a monkey wrench into the metabolic machinery that manufactures cholesterol. That must tickle to death doctors and patients alike who were raised to think that cholesterol is a uniformly BAD substance. But it's time to take it to the next level of understanding.

The other problem is that people don't consider hypervitaminosis as a consequence of their massive vitamin binges. The benefits don't outweigh the side effects when it comes to massive doses of any given vitamin and any doctor would be a fool to even consider recommending such a treatment regimen.

I've been a "life-extender" type for over 30 years, and I have never EVER taken megadoses of vitamins (not routinely, anyway), and I don't recommend that to others. What I'm talking about regarding the oxidative theory of atherosclerosis is a more measured, more intelligent application of enlightened nutrition.

Bryan

ok SO ENLIGHTEN ME? More fish, more chicken, more gren veggies, oatmeal, flaxseed meal , fruits like bluberries etc etc....Cardio cardio cardio, stress management yada yada yada.......been there done it.

Start reading labels more often and shop at health food stores if you can help it.

You'll notice that every package of noodles you buy, every can of soup, every package of frozen vegetables or shrimp, and pretty much everything that you buy at a normal grocery store is going to be bad for you.

Now, I don't want you go out and buy organic stuff, but a lot of stuff from the grocery store is incredibly high in salt for preservation and even higher in fat and cholesterol.

Even the fruit from a grocery store really have no nutritional value other than sugar and fiber. They are kept in cold storage too long and all the valuable antioxidants decay.

If you need help with your cholesterol, then trying a statin for a while might be the right idea. There's always the possibility that you're one of the 1:125 people will a familial hypercholesterolemia and you just keep it well controlled. However, if you had such a disease, I'd expect your LDL and triglycerides to be a lot higher. You'd have to have such a mild form of the disease that it wouldn't even concern me.

My LDL is 120 and my HDL is 35 and I'm only 24. I eat a semi-vegan diet and take a lot of antioxidants. I exercise, as well. Sometimes, some of us just aren't as lucky when it comes to controlling our own physiology.

 

[CCS]

I would not put chicken on the list of good food. I'd replace it with beans.

Yeah, I don't buy much fresh fruit because I know it is picked before it is ripe and just stays there too long. Are canned foods any better? What abotu frozen orange juice with pulp.?

The main reason I don't eat processed food is all the transfat. Avoid anything with the word hydrogenated, shortening, margerine and a few other things that all mean the same thing. Yeah, and there is a lot of salt. My only salt in my diet comes from my canned beans. Everything else is salt free.

I'm still bummed about the fruit, though. I take vitamin C with bioflavonoids, vitamin E gama G and many other isomers, a multi-vitamin, curcumin, GTE, GSE, apple polyphenols, fish oil, safflower oil, and borageseed oil, and canned blueberries.

 

[camobear777]

Mine used to be high, 238, after supplementing with many Vitamins and herbs and working out min 4X week 30mins my total on my last check up was 146 and my HDL was above 50. Here is what I take for Cholesterol and heart health.

GNC MegaMan Multi Vitimin
Ester-C 500mg
COQ10 100mg
Kyolic Aged Garlic Extract 1200mg
Grape Seed Extract 200mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 200mg
Red Yeast Rice 1200mg
Fish Oil Omaga 3 4000mg
Lecithan 1200mg
Green Tea Extract 600mg
Magnsium 400mg

 

[Felk]

Start reading labels more often and shop at health food stores if you can help it.

You'll notice that every package of noodles you buy, every can of soup, every package of frozen vegetables or shrimp, and pretty much everything that you buy at a normal grocery store is going to be bad for you.

Now, I don't want you go out and buy organic stuff, but a lot of stuff from the grocery store is incredibly high in salt for preservation and even higher in fat and cholesterol.

Even the fruit from a grocery store really have no nutritional value other than sugar and fiber. They are kept in cold storage too long and all the valuable antioxidants decay.

If you need help with your cholesterol, then trying a statin for a while might be the right idea. There's always the possibility that you're one of the 1:125 people will a familial hypercholesterolemia and you just keep it well controlled. However, if you had such a disease, I'd expect your LDL and triglycerides to be a lot higher. You'd have to have such a mild form of the disease that it wouldn't even concern me.

My LDL is 120 and my HDL is 35 and I'm only 24. I eat a semi-vegan diet and take a lot of antioxidants. I exercise, as well. Sometimes, some of us just aren't as lucky when it comes to controlling our own physiology.

It sounds as if you are recommending organic stuff. If not food from grocery stores (i mean, not even supermarkets), then where, if not an organic grocery store?

"Health food stores" in Australia at least usually just means supplements the majority of the time. The organic fruit and vegetable places are the only alternative i can think of to buying food from a grocery store.

 

[docj077]

Start reading labels more often and shop at health food stores if you can help it.

You'll notice that every package of noodles you buy, every can of soup, every package of frozen vegetables or shrimp, and pretty much everything that you buy at a normal grocery store is going to be bad for you.

Now, I don't want you go out and buy organic stuff, but a lot of stuff from the grocery store is incredibly high in salt for preservation and even higher in fat and cholesterol.

Even the fruit from a grocery store really have no nutritional value other than sugar and fiber. They are kept in cold storage too long and all the valuable antioxidants decay.

If you need help with your cholesterol, then trying a statin for a while might be the right idea. There's always the possibility that you're one of the 1:125 people will a familial hypercholesterolemia and you just keep it well controlled. However, if you had such a disease, I'd expect your LDL and triglycerides to be a lot higher. You'd have to have such a mild form of the disease that it wouldn't even concern me.

My LDL is 120 and my HDL is 35 and I'm only 24. I eat a semi-vegan diet and take a lot of antioxidants. I exercise, as well. Sometimes, some of us just aren't as lucky when it comes to controlling our own physiology.

It sounds as if you are recommending organic stuff. If not food from grocery stores (i mean, not even supermarkets), then where, if not an organic grocery store?

"Health food stores" in Australia at least usually just means supplements the majority of the time. The organic fruit and vegetable places are the only alternative i can think of to buying food from a grocery store.

I just want the guy to be one of those people who actually watches the nutrition labels carefully. There is always an alternative at the grocery store. No fat, no cholesterol cream cheese, for instance, single handedly saves about half the cholesterol and fat you would have gotten with the normal stuff. The same goes for getting high fiber, low sugar cereals, breads, and noodles.

Plus, a person should always use vegetable broth or the above mentioned cream cheese as a base in their soups and buy soy chips or baked chips. Lowfat yogurts are a must and just make sure that you watch the fat, salt, cholesterol, and calories.

This is how I do things when I go to the grocery store and it suits me fine. It's a crappy way to shop, but at least it keeps me healthy.

 

[Old Baldy]

Doctor or College: Do you have any links to studies indicating store bought fruits and veggies have lost all their nutritional value?

I'm sure there's less nutrition generally when buying from a store versus picking fresh off the vine or tree, etc. However, I've never read they are worthless if bought from a grocery store produce section. In fact, I've read that much of what you can buy from a store can be quite nutritious most of the time.

I grow my own stuff but do buy store bought fruit and veggies to compliment what I grow. (What I grow mainly are apples, pears, berries, tomato and greens/parsley.)

I was kind of stunned when you and College stated store bought fruit is basically worthless. :shock:

 

[sublime]

I would not put chicken on the list of good food. I'd replace it with beans.

Yeah, I don't buy much fresh fruit because I know it is picked before it is ripe and just stays there too long. Are canned foods any better? What abotu frozen orange juice with pulp.?

The main reason I don't eat processed food is all the transfat. Avoid anything with the word hydrogenated, shortening, margerine and a few other things that all mean the same thing. Yeah, and there is a lot of salt. My only salt in my diet comes from my canned beans. Everything else is salt free.

I'm still bummed about the fruit, though. I take vitamin C with bioflavonoids, vitamin E gama G and many other isomers, a multi-vitamin, curcumin, GTE, GSE, apple polyphenols, fish oil, safflower oil, and borageseed oil, and canned blueberries.

CCS - your best bet is Frozen fruits. I only eat dried fruits to obtain iron in my diet and I try and stay away from anything canned.

 

[sublime]

Start reading labels more often and shop at health food stores if you can help it.

You'll notice that every package of noodles you buy, every can of soup, every package of frozen vegetables or shrimp, and pretty much everything that you buy at a normal grocery store is going to be bad for you.

Now, I don't want you go out and buy organic stuff, but a lot of stuff from the grocery store is incredibly high in salt for preservation and even higher in fat and cholesterol.

Even the fruit from a grocery store really have no nutritional value other than sugar and fiber. They are kept in cold storage too long and all the valuable antioxidants decay.

If you need help with your cholesterol, then trying a statin for a while might be the right idea. There's always the possibility that you're one of the 1:125 people will a familial hypercholesterolemia and you just keep it well controlled. However, if you had such a disease, I'd expect your LDL and triglycerides to be a lot higher. You'd have to have such a mild form of the disease that it wouldn't even concern me.

My LDL is 120 and my HDL is 35 and I'm only 24. I eat a semi-vegan diet and take a lot of antioxidants. I exercise, as well. Sometimes, some of us just aren't as lucky when it comes to controlling our own physiology.

It sounds as if you are recommending organic stuff. If not food from grocery stores (i mean, not even supermarkets), then where, if not an organic grocery store?

"Health food stores" in Australia at least usually just means supplements the majority of the time. The organic fruit and vegetable places are the only alternative i can think of to buying food from a grocery store.

I just want the guy to be one of those people who actually watches the nutrition labels carefully. There is always an alternative at the grocery store. No fat, no cholesterol cream cheese, for instance, single handedly saves about half the cholesterol and fat you would have gotten with the normal stuff. The same goes for getting high fiber, low sugar cereals, breads, and noodles.

Plus, a person should always use vegetable broth or the above mentioned cream cheese as a base in their soups and buy soy chips or baked chips. Lowfat yogurts are a must and just make sure that you watch the fat, salt, cholesterol, and calories.

This is how I do things when I go to the grocery store and it suits me fine. It's a crappy way to shop, but at least it keeps me healthy.

With all of the low fat and diet products out there and we still have massive heart disease and are the fatest nation. I just don't believe in those things.

 

[sublime]

Doctor or College: Do you have any links to studies indicating store bought fruits and veggies have lost all their nutritional value?

I'm sure there's less nutrition generally when buying from a store versus picking fresh off the vine or tree, etc. However, I've never read they are worthless if bought from a grocery store produce section. In fact, I've read that much of what you can buy from a store can be quite nutritious most of the time.

I grow my own stuff but do buy store bought fruit and veggies to compliment what I grow. (What I grow mainly are apples, pears, berries, tomato and greens/parsley.)

I was kind of stunned when you and College stated store bought fruit is basically worthless. :shock:

Here is some info with quoted studies.

http://www.ota.com/organic/benefits/nutrition.html

http://www.organicts.com/organic_info/articles/downloads/organic.pdf

 

[docj077]

Start reading labels more often and shop at health food stores if you can help it.

You'll notice that every package of noodles you buy, every can of soup, every package of frozen vegetables or shrimp, and pretty much everything that you buy at a normal grocery store is going to be bad for you.

Now, I don't want you go out and buy organic stuff, but a lot of stuff from the grocery store is incredibly high in salt for preservation and even higher in fat and cholesterol.

Even the fruit from a grocery store really have no nutritional value other than sugar and fiber. They are kept in cold storage too long and all the valuable antioxidants decay.

If you need help with your cholesterol, then trying a statin for a while might be the right idea. There's always the possibility that you're one of the 1:125 people will a familial hypercholesterolemia and you just keep it well controlled. However, if you had such a disease, I'd expect your LDL and triglycerides to be a lot higher. You'd have to have such a mild form of the disease that it wouldn't even concern me.

My LDL is 120 and my HDL is 35 and I'm only 24. I eat a semi-vegan diet and take a lot of antioxidants. I exercise, as well. Sometimes, some of us just aren't as lucky when it comes to controlling our own physiology.

It sounds as if you are recommending organic stuff. If not food from grocery stores (i mean, not even supermarkets), then where, if not an organic grocery store?

"Health food stores" in Australia at least usually just means supplements the majority of the time. The organic fruit and vegetable places are the only alternative i can think of to buying food from a grocery store.

I just want the guy to be one of those people who actually watches the nutrition labels carefully. There is always an alternative at the grocery store. No fat, no cholesterol cream cheese, for instance, single handedly saves about half the cholesterol and fat you would have gotten with the normal stuff. The same goes for getting high fiber, low sugar cereals, breads, and noodles.

Plus, a person should always use vegetable broth or the above mentioned cream cheese as a base in their soups and buy soy chips or baked chips. Lowfat yogurts are a must and just make sure that you watch the fat, salt, cholesterol, and calories.

This is how I do things when I go to the grocery store and it suits me fine. It's a crappy way to shop, but at least it keeps me healthy.

With all of the low fat and diet products out there and we still have massive heart disease and are the fatest nation. I just don't believe in those things.

You should. The reason we have this problem is because no one pays attention to the labels. My dad has essential hypertension and he didn't even know how much sodium he was taking in with his diet until I pointed it out to him. He doesn't even eat fast food other than a pizza maybe once a month.

 

[Old Baldy]

Thanks for the links Sub.

I've known of such studies and do use alot of compost, minerals, etc., in my homegrown stuff.

However, studies are all over the board on nutritional values of organic versus conventional grown produce.

The attached link talks about this comparison and Table I shows what I mean.

Although I choose to grow organic, except for a few sprays of Imidan to control the plum curculio (no organic control available yet), I think conventionally grown produce offer benefits to our health.

They aren't worthless from what I've read but, in the end, I do use alot of organic stuff. You know, compost, wood chip/chopped leaf mulches, minerals, manure based dried fertilizers like Espoma, etc. I think the organic produce tastes better but nutritional studies are all over the place.

Here's a pretty good summary of what I'm talking about:

http://www.misa.umn.edu/vd/bourn.pdf

 

[Old Baldy]

I forgot to mention the famous 1997 study that concluded canned food is very nutritious. Don't be afraid of canned food, unless like Doctor said, you can't take sodium in your diet.

http://www.mealtime.org/files/1997_nutr ... _final.pdf

I sometimes wonder why canned foods were demonized in years prior to the 1997 study? Marketing ploys by the frozen and fresh fruit and veggie industry?

 

[CCS]

fresh foods are picked unrip, shipped green, and shelf ripened. Canned foods are picked ripe (hopefully) and canned tree ripened. Just don't drain the water, since it has vitamins in it. I get unsalted cans of lots of stuff. just my beans have salt, but I do need some salt each day anyway. I get almost exactly the RDA for salt each day, and eat a lot of cans. Canned food is so much cheaper than fresh food. I just eat grean leaves fresh, since they don't have to rippen. and I'm tired of fruit spoiling on me.

 

[Felk]

I forgot to mention the famous 1997 study that concluded canned food is very nutritious. Don't be afraid of canned food, unless like Doctor said, you can't take sodium in your diet.

http://www.mealtime.org/files/1997_nutr ... _final.pdf

I sometimes wonder why canned foods were demonized in years prior to the 1997 study? Marketing ploys by the frozen and fresh fruit and veggie industry?

That was due to the inferior quality cans they were using, and their health effects, no?

 

[sublime]

I forgot to mention the famous 1997 study that concluded canned food is very nutritious. Don't be afraid of canned food, unless like Doctor said, you can't take sodium in your diet.

http://www.mealtime.org/files/1997_nutr ... _final.pdf

I sometimes wonder why canned foods were demonized in years prior to the 1997 study? Marketing ploys by the frozen and fresh fruit and veggie industry?

Canned food is just a far third in relation to fresh fruit and then frozen fruit. At least with frozen fruit you retain near vitamin levels of raw fruit and the digestive enzymes that are found in raw foods are still at a respectable level in frozen.

 

[sublime]

Start reading labels more often and shop at health food stores if you can help it.

You'll notice that every package of noodles you buy, every can of soup, every package of frozen vegetables or shrimp, and pretty much everything that you buy at a normal grocery store is going to be bad for you.

Now, I don't want you go out and buy organic stuff, but a lot of stuff from the grocery store is incredibly high in salt for preservation and even higher in fat and cholesterol.

Even the fruit from a grocery store really have no nutritional value other than sugar and fiber. They are kept in cold storage too long and all the valuable antioxidants decay.

If you need help with your cholesterol, then trying a statin for a while might be the right idea. There's always the possibility that you're one of the 1:125 people will a familial hypercholesterolemia and you just keep it well controlled. However, if you had such a disease, I'd expect your LDL and triglycerides to be a lot higher. You'd have to have such a mild form of the disease that it wouldn't even concern me.

My LDL is 120 and my HDL is 35 and I'm only 24. I eat a semi-vegan diet and take a lot of antioxidants. I exercise, as well. Sometimes, some of us just aren't as lucky when it comes to controlling our own physiology.

It sounds as if you are recommending organic stuff. If not food from grocery stores (i mean, not even supermarkets), then where, if not an organic grocery store?

"Health food stores" in Australia at least usually just means supplements the majority of the time. The organic fruit and vegetable places are the only alternative i can think of to buying food from a grocery store.

I just want the guy to be one of those people who actually watches the nutrition labels carefully. There is always an alternative at the grocery store. No fat, no cholesterol cream cheese, for instance, single handedly saves about half the cholesterol and fat you would have gotten with the normal stuff. The same goes for getting high fiber, low sugar cereals, breads, and noodles.

Plus, a person should always use vegetable broth or the above mentioned cream cheese as a base in their soups and buy soy chips or baked chips. Lowfat yogurts are a must and just make sure that you watch the fat, salt, cholesterol, and calories.

This is how I do things when I go to the grocery store and it suits me fine. It's a crappy way to shop, but at least it keeps me healthy.

With all of the low fat and diet products out there and we still have massive heart disease and are the fatest nation. I just don't believe in those things.

You should. The reason we have this problem is because no one pays attention to the labels. My dad has essential hypertension and he didn't even know how much sodium he was taking in with his diet until I pointed it out to him. He doesn't even eat fast food other than a pizza maybe once a month.

Sorry Doctor I just can't justify using anything processed and feel the whole industry has created a diseased america. I mean where are the cancer rates in foriegn countries like we have here? I am referring to childhood not adult.