Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[Jonny Craig]

What’s your friend’s dose? Apply to face and forehead? I can agree that my workouts and physique haven’t suffered at all from estrogen, but I’m using small dose compared to most on this thread

That's one thing.. hard to gauge exact dosage he uses.

He uses ONCE daily, before bed.

Applies on entire scalp, carefully.. I will ask him to try and gauge the exact amount. But he uses 2-3 pumps perhaps. 1 pump = 1 mg of natural Estriol USP and 0.25 mg of natural Estradiol USP

 

[Father_of_Shiseido]

That's a good idea. I've been thinking about doing that lately. Has your hair improved on that small of a dose? I just took 2.25 mg of e and I feel really sleepy right now.

I think I still have testosterone because I still have a libido and still get acne from time to time.

How is your hair?

 

[Father_of_Shiseido]

Keep in mind shedding can be a delayed effect. I spent 2 full weeks in February with no e no cypro or anything and I only started shedding again a few days after resuming my drugs.

I wish I slept as well as I used too. I've realized that it's mostly the estrogen that make me feel tired and ruins my sleep. I've gone a couple days without it now but while still taking cypro and spironolactone and had the best sleep I've had in a long time.

I am getting severe insomnia on 400 mg spironolactone.

 

[nWo Wolfpac]

How is your hair?

My hair is just fine thank you.

I am getting severe insomnia on 400 mg spironolactone.

Well no sh*t your having sleeping problems you've been taking way too much. 200 mg is usually the highest amount a doctor will prescribe.

 

[lexluthor.12]

Do you think progesteron will help? Do you have any experience with it?

 

[Jonny Craig]

@bridgeburn need your help please.

I'm not on anything but topical scalp progesterone.

Will adding in Bi-estrocare on scalp/hairline POSSIBLY INCREASE DHT??? Or should I be good to go and go into it with no worries???

Concern is -- Upregulating and ramping up DHT production in an attempt for the body to keep homeostasis as it senses increased E levels!

 

[Ikarus]

I am getting severe insomnia on 400 mg spironolactone.

...Why are you taking 400MG of Spironolactone...?

 

[Maave]

@bridgeburn need your help please.

I'm not on anything but topical scalp progesterone.

Will adding in Bi-estrocare on scalp/hairline POSSIBLY INCREASE DHT??? Or should I be good to go and go into it with no worries???

Concern is -- Upregulating and ramping up DHT production in an attempt for the body to keep homeostasis as it senses increased E levels!

Adding E will downregulate hormone production. Check this wiki page (at least the "Location and regulation" section)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal_axis#Location_and_regulation

The feedback loop is the same in males and females, except that in males LH will trigger T production and in females it triggers E production. But both T and E will downregulate GnRH/LH/FSH. For transgender care, high E doses (usually injections) can fully supress T without any anti-androgens.

 

[Guido]

@Maave
Did you improve with bicalutamide? me with flutamide I'm going bad

 

[Maave]

Yeah I'm getting good results with bicalutamide. My E is likely higher than average since bicalutamide and raloxifene both upregulate hormone production, but I haven't seen my levels. I'll ask my Doctor in April.

 

[LEXUS]

That's a good idea. I've been thinking about doing that lately. Has your hair improved on that small of a dose? I just took 2.25 mg of e and I feel really sleepy right now.

I think I still have testosterone because I still have a libido and still get acne from time to time.

Yes, they have become better. 0.5 also works. I tried to bring the dose to 10 mg of estradiol and it worked worse. the body resists and does not take hormones in my high dose. I also accept cypro 6 mg and this also works. What do you think spironolactone and bicalutamide are better than cypro or not? which one is the worst in action? do you have any experience with them? I also wanted to sleep from a large dose of cypro.

 

[whatevr]

Estriol, unlike estradiol, increases my libido, makes me more androgenic, impulsive and so forth.

It does this by displacing estradiol from the estrogen receptor and since estriol is a weaker estrogen (by 100x or something), it will in fact block the strong estrogen from doing its job. The end effect is less estrogenic activity and more androgen dominance. It is basically a natural 'RU' for estrogen.

Think about it. Anything that increases your androgenicity, libido, etc. cannot be good for your hair in the long run.

 

[Marky]

Adding E will downregulate hormone production. Check this wiki page (at least the "Location and regulation" section)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal_axis#Location_and_regulation

The feedback loop is the same in males and females, except that in males LH will trigger T production and in females it triggers E production. But both T and E will downregulate GnRH/LH/FSH. For transgender care, high E doses (usually injections) can fully supress T without any anti-androgens.

Does anyone else think E

Yes, they have become better. 0.5 also works. I tried to bring the dose to 10 mg of estradiol and it worked worse. the body resists and does not take hormones in my high dose. I also accept cypro 6 mg and this also works. What do you think spironolactone and bicalutamide are better than cypro or not? which one is the worst in action? do you have any experience with them? I also wanted to sleep from a large dose of cypro.

Does E grow hair just by lowering androgens or does it have another hair stimulating pathway?

 

[Marky]

Estriol, unlike estradiol, increases my libido, makes me more androgenic, impulsive and so forth.

It does this by displacing estradiol from the estrogen receptor and since estriol is a weaker estrogen (by 100x or something), it will in fact block the strong estrogen from doing its job. The end effect is less estrogenic activity and more androgen dominance. It is basically a natural 'RU' for estrogen.

Think about it. Anything that increases your androgenicity, libido, etc. cannot be good for your hair in the long run.

This is along the lines of my theory, androgens can give hair a boost in the short term, but maybe not long term.

 

[LEXUS]

estradiol is also anti androgen but weak. Testosterone prevents him because he is stronger. Yes, estradiol grows hair, but first you need to block or reduce testosterone. if you just remove testosterone, without estradiol, nothing will grow.

 

[LEXUS]

This is along the lines of my theory, androgens can give hair a boost in the short term, but maybe not long term.

perhaps hormonal swings also give impetus to hair ..

 

[Marky]

estradiol is also anti androgen but weak. Testosterone prevents him because he is stronger. Yes, estradiol grows hair, but first you need to block or reduce testosterone. if you just remove testosterone, without estradiol, nothing will grow.

So if you remove a lot of T you need to replace with a lot of E, I think.

But if you take a small amount of E, that decreases T a little, so you keep the effects of E and T.

 

[Marky]

perhaps hormonal swings also give impetus to hair ..

Yes, this is why I'm experimenting with cycling cypro, suppress the T then let is shoot back. It's what happened to me in puberty - went from straight fine hair to corse curly hair, almost over one summer!

 

[Maave]

So if you remove a lot of T you need to replace with a lot of E, I think.

But if you take a small amount of E, that decreases T a little, so you keep the effects of E and T.

I think for most peoples hair, the minimum required E is low. Men are usually 10-40 pg/mL while postmenopausal women are often less than 30 pg/mL (some sources say below 10 pg/mL) and diffuse thinning is common with postmenopausal women. So I think for most people, low T with normal male levels of E is fine. The people in this thread may be more sensitive than that.

 

[Obsessive]

Estriol, unlike estradiol, increases my libido, makes me more androgenic, impulsive and so forth.

It does this by displacing estradiol from the estrogen receptor and since estriol is a weaker estrogen (by 100x or something), it will in fact block the strong estrogen from doing its job. The end effect is less estrogenic activity and more androgen dominance. It is basically a natural 'RU' for estrogen.

Think about it. Anything that increases your androgenicity, libido, etc. cannot be good for your hair in the long run.

I can't comment about your personal experience with estriol, but many, including myself, have noticed strong libidos with estradiol. I also have great workouts and do not feel suppressed with b-estradiol. At the same time, I've had no improvement in hair with b-estradiol. I confirmed my blood levels of both estradiol and total E and I am very elevated from baseline.

I've followed your theories re: estrogen in another thread and have some issues with your ideas about with form is superior. While I understand the concept you propose about the weaker variant outcompeting estradiol for binding sites, the other variable is affinity for the receptor. I checked on a paper very quickly (https://academic.oup.com/toxsci/article/54/1/138/1670624) and estradiol IC50 for ER is 0.9 nM, whereas estriol IC50 is 9 nM. Due to the higher affinity for ER of estradiol over estriol, I would speculate that adding a modest dose of estriol would in no way abolish estradiol's ability to bind to the ER receptor. Sure, there may be a little less estradiol binding, but it could be beneficial to have some ER activation of estriol in parallel. I propose that adding a mixture of both estrogens could be ideal.
The other issue you may not have addressed (sorry if I missed it), is that estradiol converts to estrone in the body. Estrone is bad (thanks @bridgeburn). My blood test shows that I likely have significant levels of estrone since my estradiol is 61 pg/mL and my total E is 334 pg/mL. I believe most of my total E that is not estradiol is estrone because biochemically that's the most obvious path via alcohol oxidation to ketone. The beauty of estriol is that it does not convert to estrone, so you are guaranteed to only have 'good' estrogen on board when applying estriol.
Finally, doesn't b-estradiol also agonize the 'bad' ER receptor (is it ER-

alpha?)

Please do correct anything I've said that is off base. I care little about being right...just want to figure this stuff out.