New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[Sparky4444]

Stoicone Why don't you go suck Kane's dick so you get some PGE2??? I am a bit over 6 weeks and showing great results so far. It is ****ing normal to see positive results after 6 weeks when the main study was 12 ****ing weeks long. I am in the Military and get an haircut every paycheck ,15 days. So I can notice and track a ****ing difference. And also I am in the game of hairloss since I was 24 years old.. So not new on the block. I am not cynical or overexcited. Just facts no bull.

Yeah..lmao..I believe Stoicone is on our side!! :uglylol:

 

[ganonford]

squeegee, I know you're on 2.5 mm needles, but are you on 192 or 540?

 

[Sparky4444]

..got my 1.5mm in..gave it a go on my one side in the front...whoa!!! The 0.5mm stings more, but this just flat out hurts...drew blood big time...not even close to that with the 0.5mm...Will let the blood dry overnight and see how it looks overnight...

...at the very least, I will be going on my vertex once/week...minoxidil and tricomin the rest of the week...

...ouch!!! nfire:

 

[cthulhu2.0]

I forgot to mention, I shower before doing a dermaroll session to soften up the skin and I roll very slowly. If you are experiencing pain, try shampooing before of just rinse your head

 

[Sparky4444]

I forgot to mention, I shower before doing a dermaroll session to soften up the skin and I roll very slowly. If you are experiencing pain, try shampooing before of just rinse your head

good idea...maybe a cold ice pack to help numbing as well?? The pain is bearable...I think it's that scrunching sound you hear when the needles break the skin -- creeps you out

 

[squeegee]

Guys guys! just switch to a bigger increment.. 2.5mm is way better than the 1.5mm

- - - Updated - - -

squeegee, I know you're on 2.5 mm needles, but are you on 192 or 540?

I have both and they get the job done..

 

[DesperateOne]

I just ordered the 2.5mm today, I also don't understand how you guys can say that the 2.5mm hurts less than the 1.5mm, it makes little sense. Maybe you get some brain reaction if you reach a certain depth and it releases natural anesthetics? Oh well, I was thinking about buying the numbing cream as well, but there was nothing but bad reviews on the net for every single one and the one that had relatively good reviews, was super expensive.

 

[DesperateOne]

Alright folks, seems like semen really is amazing, Glutathione level is very high in sperm.

http://www.asiaandro.com/archive/1008-682X/2/225.htm

Status of vitamin E and reduced glutathione in semen of oligozoospermic and azoospermic patients

Oligospermic means low level of spermatozoa in semen and zoospermic means almost no spermatoa in semen. So basically with normal people with normal semen, we have about 58 g/mL of glutathione in semen on average.

now onto tocopherol


Here is why this is important, basically semen is high in glutathione mainly to protect the precious little swimmers from ROS and also allows to swim faster by increasing PGE2 synthesis, the addition of high levels of tocopherol is to also prevent against ROS damaging dna in the swimmers.



I found a very interesting study about glutathione and wound healing in diabetic patients (this study was posted here by various users in the past)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15727631



The dosage of glutathione in semen falls within the range of what they used in this study. Check Table 2 in this study here:

http://www.repbiol.pan.olsztyn.pl/docs/pdfs/repbiol_vol5_num1_page5.pdf

All the experimented users here know the importance of glutathione for male pattern baldness (hello mr glutathione aka squeegee). I will just re-quote a study posted by squeegee, jacob, and other users many times in this forum, it essentially shows that glutathione levels are dramatically decreased in balding scalp affected by androgenetic alopecia

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8757755

Glutathione, glutathione S-transferase and reactive oxygen species of human scalp sebaceous glands in male pattern baldness.

Nice, well I have been applying semen for the last 5 days on my crown. I don't think it's absorbing as well as you stated before Rambo, but now when I apply it I do a mild .5mm roll and I do feel it doing better. I also noticed that when I applied Mico, it completely blocks anything you might want to put later.
That is a good idea what you said about a really harsh roll and then waiting about 10 days.

Also, thanks for the tip in washing the head before roling to make the pain less intense, will have to try it, tomorrow actually.

 

[benjt]

The no-minoxidil/no-topical derma rolling "group" is reporting in for a status update, and some findings I made on what "scalp state" we should try to induce.

Been 3 weeks since my first rolling session. In the areas where I rolled, my temples, I can see very tiny fluffy vellus hair forming. They look quite similar to the ones that I noticed when I got on minoxidil (or rather, two months after commencing minoxidil - some of them at that time actually became terminal, which I have lost since dropping minoxidil). I don't know if they will grow any bigger or turn terminal, but I will continue monitoring.

Also, I read up on dermal wounding in general (not scalp specific, but general). In a book in my local library it is stated that the cells in the lower dermis will go into "stem cell mode" when the epidermis is strongly damaged or removed, in order to repair the damaged epidermis, or newly form it when removed. In this case, the visible skin will actually be pink-ish, not only red.

One to two days after my rolling sessions, the topmost layer of the rolled skin area would actually shed, and the skin underneath, which is now the outmost layer, is indeed quite pink. It might be that this is the state we need. squeegee, you also reported that you got skin shedding, and you also reported success. Is the skin that you get after shedding also pinkish?


@princessRambo: Great work you're doing here.

@all: I am very much willing to damage my skin on purpose. I will not put semen on my head though, totally out of the question.

 

[odalbak]

benjt,

you should add glutathione (and semen! haha) in your "understanding male pattern baldness" graphic.

 

[thinningTooSoon]

benjt,

you should add glutathione (and semen! haha) in your "understanding male pattern baldness" graphic.

How often are you taking glutathione odalbak?

 

[odalbak]

How often are you taking glutathione odalbak?

Each bukkake session.

 

[benjt]

While I have quite a lot of confidence in our method here, I do have some criticism towards the Indian study:
a) one user contacted them and they admitted "understatements". These understatements basically boil down to a completely wrong description of protocol. In reality, they apparently drew quite some blood. Rolling fir mild irritation is definitely not sufficient. This again hints at the necessity of deep wounds.
b) the visuals of the test subjects' heads are at different hair lengths. They did not shave/cut to the same length for reference, making the photos completely worthless.

The reported effectiveness is now only based on the hair count. The visuals are useless (which makes me kinda doubt their methodology altogether), and the protocol was incorrectly described. Who knows what else might be wrong there?

Don't misunderstand me: I totally think that replicating a similar protocol is very useful, and given Cotsarelis' work and the anecdotal evidence such as "BBQ guy" or the teenage boy that grew hair after a deep wound it is our best shot right now by far. I will also continue my trials at least for another three months, maybe more. But we should treat the Indian study with a healthy level of scepticism and not rely on their parameters completely.

@squeegee: Please take note of my last post - pink skin too?

@odalbak: Can you please provide me with links to some papers, so I can check up on it on my own?

 

[DesperateOne]

The no-minoxidil/no-topical derma rolling "group" is reporting in for a status update, and some findings I made on what "scalp state" we should try to induce.

Been 3 weeks since my first rolling session. In the areas where I rolled, my temples, I can see very tiny fluffy vellus hair forming. They look quite similar to the ones that I noticed when I got on minoxidil (or rather, two months after commencing minoxidil - some of them at that time actually became terminal, which I have lost since dropping minoxidil). I don't know if they will grow any bigger or turn terminal, but I will continue monitoring.

Also, I read up on dermal wounding in general (not scalp specific, but general). In a book in my local library it is stated that the cells in the lower dermis will go into "stem cell mode" when the epidermis is strongly damaged or removed, in order to repair the damaged epidermis, or newly form it when removed. In this case, the visible skin will actually be pink-ish, not only red.

One to two days after my rolling sessions, the topmost layer of the rolled skin area would actually shed, and the skin underneath, which is now the outmost layer, is indeed quite pink. It might be that this is the state we need. squeegee, you also reported that you got skin shedding, and you also reported success. Is the skin that you get after shedding also pinkish?


@princessRambo: Great work you're doing here.

@all: I am very much willing to damage my skin on purpose. I will not put semen on my head though, totally out of the question.

I don't understand why is there a group that is not using minoxidil. Dr. Cot has already proven that derma rolling alone without minoxidil will grow peach fuzz but never turn into terminal hair. Or are you guys just trying to back up his finding? Anyways, I think without minoxidil they are just wasting their time. Thanks on the update, I didn't know you contacted him and said we need really harsh wounding. I still think that we should do one day of really really harsh wounding and then wait it out for maybe 10 days before the next.

 

[stoicone]

Woah, going a little far. I contacted them and these were not 'understatements'. The researcher simply considered mild erythmia to mean drawing blood as an end point. They stopped as soon as they saw blood and not every session drew blood, as I understood him. Definitions of mild erythmia vary...

Reread the study. The reported effectiveness were based on patients own evaluations, hair counts and a blinded investigators evaluation. Only one of the four macro shots shown in the study was a different hair length and of the two microneedling shots, the first CLEARLY shows a ton of regrowth. The photos are definitely not worthless. We don't know anything about the other photos.

The protocol was NOT incorrectly described. It was not articulated clearly, but very few studies wholly articulate their procedure in the materials and methods section of these smaller journals. They likely had a word count limit and skimped on details in certain sections. That in no way draws into question the validity of the study.

This was only a pilot study though, so obviously there's room to experiment around it. The researcher entirely acknowledged this. It's good to take a skeptical approach to things, but your reasons aren't particularly compelling in this case.

 

[benjt]

Woah, going a little far. I contacted them and these were not 'understatements'. The researcher simply considered mild erythmia to mean drawing blood as an end point. They stopped as soon as they saw blood and not every session drew blood, as I understood him. Definitions of mild erythmia vary...

Okay, thanks for clearing things up. I misunderstood then.

the first CLEARLY shows a ton of regrowth.

I disagree.

This was only a pilot study though, so obviously there's room to experiment around it. The researcher entirely acknowledged this. It's good to take a skeptical approach to things, but your reasons aren't particularly compelling in this case.

They probably had a page limit, yes. However, I strongly dislike inprecision in scientific studies. They probably had space for a specifying that "mild erythmia" does in fact mean blood, as there obviously is a lot of room for different interpretation.
Also, it was not my intention to put doubt to the whole study. As I said, the whole concept is the best shot we have right now.

 

[Sparky4444]

ok..Friday morning...the little blood scabbies scraped off no problem and my scalp looks like nothing even happened..now, I only gave the area once or twice over..it's not a very big area as well so it was like 6 stabs per side before I felt like fainting lmao...

I use Japenese mint oil all the time and that stuff is POTENT for numbing...just a bit of it...Friday nights will be my "night" to do this thing so I will try it tonite -- I anticipate it will work very well to ease the pain...the pain is worse on the slick areas in front, not so bad on the diffuse thinning area in the back..so I will give the back a good poking

 

[benjt]

The reason why the pain is not so bad in diffuse areas is probably because there is still subcutaneous fat left. The subcutaneous fat gets destroyed during fibrosis.

 

[squeegee]

The no-minoxidil/no-topical derma rolling "group" is reporting in for a status update, and some findings I made on what "scalp state" we should try to induce.

Been 3 weeks since my first rolling session. In the areas where I rolled, my temples, I can see very tiny fluffy vellus hair forming. They look quite similar to the ones that I noticed when I got on minoxidil (or rather, two months after commencing minoxidil - some of them at that time actually became terminal, which I have lost since dropping minoxidil). I don't know if they will grow any bigger or turn terminal, but I will continue monitoring.

Also, I read up on dermal wounding in general (not scalp specific, but general). In a book in my local library it is stated that the cells in the lower dermis will go into "stem cell mode" when the epidermis is strongly damaged or removed, in order to repair the damaged epidermis, or newly form it when removed. In this case, the visible skin will actually be pink-ish, not only red.

One to two days after my rolling sessions, the topmost layer of the rolled skin area would actually shed, and the skin underneath, which is now the outmost layer, is indeed quite pink. It might be that this is the state we need. squeegee, you also reported that you got skin shedding, and you also reported success. Is the skin that you get after shedding also pinkish?


@princessRambo: Great work you're doing here.

@all: I am very much willing to damage my skin on purpose. I will not put semen on my head though, totally out of the question.

Yeah man! Pink-hish then shedding of dead skin after.

 

[Sparky4444]

The reason why the pain is not so bad in diffuse areas is probably because there is still subcutaneous fat left. The subcutaneous fat gets destroyed during fibrosis.

Makes total sense!