New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[Sparky4444]

But if washing the scalp/hair twice daily impacts softness, then I probably do have soft skin.

:freaked2: ...why the eff would you do that?? Holy crap that is nuts...

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LOL! what is next? Tiger balm? Common guys! Just brainwashed yourself for some pain. Roll it! Leave it! go to bed!

Don't knock it til you tried it...This stuff has been help me tons with nerve and muscle pain in my back...it's like Vicks VapoRub, it is that potent...it helps with the pain, so screw it, I'm gonna use it...it's only once/week and you'll have to shampoo the next morning if you're rolling over hair-covered areas

 

[hellouser]

Here's an interesting question:

If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?

In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.

Thoughts??

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sorry for digressing but are you implying that cb did not work for you?

No, I've only been on it a few weeks and also was using oleyl/pg as the vehicle for a few days which actually increased my shedding EXTREMELY. I'd say I'm in a recovery state. It's too early to tell either way if its working or not, but my shedding HAS decreased.

 

[stoicone]

Here's an interesting question:

If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?

In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.

Thoughts??

The only reason they applied the minoxidil 24 hours after the wounding was to control whether it was increased absorption or the wounding response that was causing the regrowth. Increasing systematic absorption of 5% minoxidil once a week is very unlikely to be dangerous or cause side effects besides lightheadedness.

I put my lipogaine on as soon as I can wash the blood off my scalp (it cakes on and would affect absorption).

 

[bushbush]

The only reason they applied the minoxidil 24 hours after the wounding was to control whether it was increased absorption or the wounding response that was causing the regrowth

Where does it say that in the study?

 

[stoicone]

It doesnt, I asked the researcher about this when I emailed him. He indicated it was just a control and that he had no idea what impact, if any, putting minoxidil right after rolling would have.

 

[theRA]

This whole thing reminds me of one movie where a Chinese old lady pins like 3 long needles to a completely bald guys head and tells him it will make his his hair regrow cant remember the name of the movie but was pretty funny ... yea and i guess this rolling has a very similliar principle of acupuncture - to increase the blood flow in that area, similar to how also minoxidil works i guess.

 

[stoicone]

This whole thing reminds me of one movie where a Chinese old lady pins like 3 long needles to a completely bald guys head and tells him it will make his his hair regrow cant remember the name of the movie but was pretty funny ... yea and i guess this rolling has a very similliar principle of acupuncture - to increase the blood flow in that area, similar to how also minoxidil works i guess.

...nope. Read the study. This is about the inflammatory response to wounding, which does involve an increase in blood flow but the major importance relates to the growth factors and prostaglandins released. It is not similar in principle to acupuncture, at least as far as I understand acupuncture.

 

[Sparky4444]

Here's an interesting question:

If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?

In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.

Thoughts??

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No, I've only been on it a few weeks and also was using oleyl/pg as the vehicle for a few days which actually increased my shedding EXTREMELY. I'd say I'm in a recovery state. It's too early to tell either way if its working or not, but my shedding HAS decreased.

Apply when you feel it's right...I seriously doubt early application is going to screw you up...

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...nope. Read the study. This is about the inflammatory response to wounding, which does involve an increase in blood flow but the major importance relates to the growth factors and prostaglandins released. It is not similar in principle to acupuncture, at least as far as I understand acupuncture.

Yep...needling alone won't be enough...I've had acupuncture and comparing to the derma-roller, it isn't even close...acupuncture doesn't hurt at all

 

[odalbak]

This is about the inflammatory response to wounding, which does involve an increase in blood flow but the major importance relates to the growth factors and prostaglandins released.

That's not my understanding. It's not about growth factors (although they're implied) but about regeneration. Not just new or stronger hairs, but brand new follicles.

 

[stoicone]

That's not my understanding. It's not about growth factors (although they're implied) but about regeneration. Not just new or stronger hairs, but brand new follicles.

ummmm... just read the introduction or conclusion of the study. I'm also not sure why you think regeneration doesn't have to do with growth factors and prostglandins... given that the major piece according to cots' research, FGF9, is a growth factor! The wounding response produces growth factors and prostglandins, those are the major players in follicular neogenesis AND in thickening and strengthening existing hairs. There's a reason that not only were new hairs noted, but stronger, healthier and faster growth of existing hairs.

To help clarify with a direct quote:

Various researches have demonstrated the underlying importance of Wnt proteins and wound growth factors in stimulating DP associated stem cells. Microneedling works by stimulation of stem cells and inducing activation of growth factors.

There is no distinction between talking about growth factors and prostaglandins and regeneration. They are all part of a single complex system. Regeneration depends on the wounding response which is an INFLAMMATORY response.

So long story short, you just seem to have the same understanding that I do (and the study's authors) but just want to call it by its end result rather than its precipitating cause.

 

[odalbak]

I didn't oppose neogenesis and wnt/PGs…

If it was about having better growth and healthier hair, do you really imagine dermarolling, with the pain it involves, let alone the theoretical risk of developping infections or …very mean new cells, could be a long term solution to male pattern baldness if neogenesis was not central to it? I don't care about a new and more powerful minoxidil.

 

[Irishjim]

Got my 1.5mm today, Jeez it hurts! brought tears to my eyes - but if it works, its worth it. I took a couple of photo's afterwards so I can keep track of progress. This is after a shower with my hair dry a couple of mins after doing it. Drew blood so I guess im applying enough pressure. I'm not sure if the ripping sound is my skin or hair!!!!

Im going to follow the study except that I am taking 1.25 of finasteride daily (have been for 9 months).

 

[hellouser]

Got my 1.5mm today, Jeez it hurts! brought tears to my eyes - but if it works, its worth it. I took a couple of photo's afterwards so I can keep track of progress. This is after a shower with my hair dry a couple of mins after doing it. Drew blood so I guess im applying enough pressure. I'm not sure if the ripping sound is my skin or hair!!!!

Im going to follow the study except that I am taking 1.25 of finasteride daily (have been for 9 months).

You may see better results than all of us, I've read reports that DHT inhibits WNT proteins which are essential to Histogen's method and potentially the dermarolling/wounding method. Please keep us posted! Would be interesting to see how you fare

 

[DesperateOne]

Here's an interesting question:

If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?

In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.

Thoughts??

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No, I've only been on it a few weeks and also was using oleyl/pg as the vehicle for a few days which actually increased my shedding EXTREMELY. I'd say I'm in a recovery state. It's too early to tell either way if its working or not, but my shedding HAS decreased.

I know, I mentioned this before too, but my soreness goes away about 16 hours after. That is why we were saying to maybe derma roll with a .5mm after, in order to keep the wound open. I did it but my head was in much pain when I did that, but it might be the only way. I also apply before the 24 hour period and its important to note that everyone knows their body better.

About the laser, if I understand correctly, the minoxidil came in packages, so even if the minoxidil was there, it was released in timed intervals. At any rate, some people seem to jus been following the study to the T, and the rest are trying to replicate follicla's method as much as possible, like me.

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Man I swear the damn light makes a huge difference on perspective. I looked at myself today on the room light and I look like I hav a full head of hair, but then I look in the bathroom light and close up and that's when I get depressed.
Makes me wonder how I really look like on a regular basis, maybe outside under the soon we look horrible, but inside say an office, we might pass as normal. Anyone have a similar experience?

 

[stoicone]

I didn't oppose neogenesis and wnt/PGs…

If it was about having better growth and healthier hair, do you really imagine dermarolling, with the pain it involves, let alone the theoretical risk of developping infections or …very mean new cells, could be a long term solution to male pattern baldness if neogenesis was not central to it? I don't care about a new and more powerful minoxidil.

Not really worth going into this too much further because it doesn't seem like you have a grasp of what's going on, but the very same factors involved in strengthening existing hair are also involved in neogenesis. You don't have neogenesis without the GFs/PGs that are also responsible for strengthening existing hairs. I'm not sure if that will help you understand, but you are drawing some false dichotomy between neogenesis and improved hair growth.

Who's talking about a new or more powerful minoxidil? This is a complex set of interactions between GFs and PGs that minoxidil helps to induce. It even seems that Follica may be using minoxidil in their follicular neogenesis.

Point being, it's about neogenesis OR improved growth of existing hairs. It's about both. But what precipitates all that is the inflammatory response which includes GFs/PGs as the primary actors.

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Got my 1.5mm today, Jeez it hurts! brought tears to my eyes - but if it works, its worth it. I took a couple of photo's afterwards so I can keep track of progress. This is after a shower with my hair dry a couple of mins after doing it. Drew blood so I guess im applying enough pressure. I'm not sure if the ripping sound is my skin or hair!!!!

Im going to follow the study except that I am taking 1.25 of finasteride daily (have been for 9 months).


View attachment 21476View attachment 21477

One of the researchers noted even better results with patients in her practice that were also on finasteride, but obviously that wasn't controlled or observed in the study (given that no one is on finasteride in the study) so it's merely anecdotal.

 

[odalbak]

you are drawing some false dichotomy between neogenesis and improved hair growth.

Who's talking about a new or more powerful minoxidil?

I'm not drawing any dichotomy. Neogenesis IS the most interesting aspect of the whole process. When I mention minoxidil I'm referring to a product that as far as we know doesn't produce neogenesis, not to the process involved in DM+minoxidil which is obviously different. On my totally bald temples I don't care about improving the vitality of my old microscopic follicles, I'm more excited in seeing how there's a brand new baby hair growing on the exact tiny spots where needles were inserted.

 

[Sparky4444]

I wonder if there would be any effect of applying minoxidil when you're needling??

 

[Sparky4444]

It would sting like a mother. I did that a year ago when I tried rolling everyday with a 0,5 mm roller.

Apply japanese mint oil first, I was thinking...I just wonder get minoxidil in at the initial wounding might kickstart the process a lot faster

 

[cthulhu2.0]

I know, I mentioned this before too, but my soreness goes away about 16 hours after. That is why we were saying to maybe derma roll with a .5mm after, in order to keep the wound open. I did it but my head was in much pain when I did that, but it might be the only way. I also apply before the 24 hour period and its important to note that everyone knows their body better.

About the laser, if I understand correctly, the minoxidil came in packages, so even if the minoxidil was there, it was released in timed intervals. At any rate, some people seem to jus been following the study to the T, and the rest are trying to replicate follicla's method as much as possible, like me.

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Man I swear the damn light makes a huge difference on perspective. I looked at myself today on the room light and I look like I hav a full head of hair, but then I look in the bathroom light and close up and that's when I get depressed.
Makes me wonder how I really look like on a regular basis, maybe outside under the soon we look horrible, but inside say an office, we might pass as normal. Anyone have a similar experience?

It might be unhealthy to keep the wounds unhealed and from a logical standpoint, they may never heal if you continue to do this for an extended duration of time. Also, keep in mind rolling every day would be a major hassle, just applying minoxidil twice a day is enough of a hassle, that's why I apply it only once a day.

 

[closetmetrosexual]

That is why we were saying to maybe derma roll with a .5mm after, in order to keep the wound open.

I remember reading several places that the channels (ie. the wounds/holes that the needles punch in your skin) close within an hour after rolling)
So, I wouldn't think you'd see much success with keeping the wound open by rolling the day after with any length of needle.

The one hour thing also would probably mean that we can apply minoxidil something like two hours after rolling, without having to worry about getting a heart attack.
Personally, I'm going to wait until the next day anyway with minoxidil - just to be on the safe side.

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... just applying minoxidil twice a day is enough of a hassle, that's why I apply it only once a day.

I've been wondering about this:

Would applying a 10% minoxidil solution once a day be as/nearly as effective as applying a 5% minoxidil solution twice daily?