New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[hellouser]

That looks good, go ahead and ask your desntist to order one for you and let us know how it went.

Not sure if any joe schmoe can order one. I'd also need to learn how to use one of those things. Community effort once again... find someone who's familiar with such a device and give us some input.

 

[closetmetrosexual]

Could I please ask the users here who are seeing results to post their needle length and the needle count (how many needles does your roller have).

I think this is vital to know.

Thank you.

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Hi Some one asked earlier in the thread why 192 needles is sometimes recommended over the 540.
The reason I have read is that the 540 needle rollers can sometimes have a bedding effect think of a bed of nails and how the pressure is spread between the nails and they don't pierce the skin.

This is true (about the 'bedding' effect).

However, this was not the reason given in what I read. It had something to do with the way the needles penetrate. Somehow the 540 needle ones cause some kind of scarring, because the needles somehow 'dig' into the skin differently. Whereas the 192 needle ones penetrate the skin cleanly.

This is all that I vaguely remember. I've tried googling it. I just cannot find the text any more, sorry.

That being said, I know at least one user here has been using the 540 needle roller (2.5mm I believe) - and he is seeing results. So, maybe the scarring is something that would be advantageous for us, actually. (makes me want to order that 1080 needle roller ASAP)

 

[DesperateOne]

Could I please ask the users here who are seeing results to post their needle length and the needle count (how many needles does your roller have).

I think this is vital to know.

Thank you.

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This is true (about the 'bedding' effect).

However, this was not the reason given in what I read. It had something to do with the way the needles penetrate. Somehow the 540 needle ones cause some kind of scarring, because the needles somehow 'dig' into the skin differently. Whereas the 192 needle ones penetrate the skin cleanly.

This is all that I vaguely remember. I've tried googling it. I just cannot find the text any more, sorry.

That being said, I know at least one user here has been using the 540 needle roller (2.5mm I believe) - and he is seeing results. So, maybe the scarring is something that would be advantageous for us, actually. (makes me want to order that 1080 needle roller ASAP)

It's all trial and error really, we don't know the best size yet or the amount of needles. I personally been using the 192 needles but I think I started with great results, seeing hair grow faster and thicker as well as some new terminals. Now however, I have been shedding pretty bad, I don't know if it's a good or bad thing. I will just hope for the best, like always :/

I think we should make a spreadsheet similar to the ones the Germans made for Cet, or maybe a website. Someone cat post info on current regime and growth if any.

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Not sure if any joe schmoe can order one. I'd also need to learn how to use one of those things. Community effort once again... find someone who's familiar with such a device and give us some input.

That's why I said to ask your dentist to order one for you. Also, you never answered about the peeling cream.

 

[hellouser]

That's why I said to ask your dentist to order one for you. Also, you never answered about the peeling cream.

If he did, I'd have to be real tight with him in order to do it. Plus, brand spanking new would have the regular retail price. I looked into some EZLASE lasers on ebay and they sell anywhere between 1.7k and 5k. Realistic price should be around 3k I think, saw a few completed ebay listings with them.

In regards to the peeling cream, I wouldnt want to use anything Follica isn't using. I want to replicate their method EXACTLY.

 

[closetmetrosexual]

In regards to the peeling cream, I wouldnt want to use anything Follica isn't using. I want to replicate their method EXACTLY.

Do we know that they used a peeling agent at all? At the same time they did the wounding?

I have some TCA crystals laying around. That's pretty much the most effective chemical peel there is.
I don't think using other chemical/cream peels will have any different effect. They all do the same thing, AFAIK. It's only a question of how thoroughly they do it.

I did consider doing TCA peels. But doing them in combination with dermarolling....... I just assumed that would be way too extreme.
But it would be something that is very easily done. And a hell of a lot less painful than rolling.

I would be willing to be the guinea pig with rolling + TCA peels. But I'd like to be very sure that Follica were doing both - at the same time - before I venture forth.

 

[DesperateOne]

Do we know that they used a peeling agent at all? At the same time they did the wounding?

I have some TCA crystals laying around. That's pretty much the most effective chemical peel there is.
I don't think using other chemical/cream peels will have any different effect. They all do the same thing, AFAIK. It's only a question of how thoroughly they do it.

I did consider doing TCA peels. But doing them in combination with dermarolling....... I just assumed that would be way too extreme.
But it would be something that is very easily done. And a hell of a lot less painful than rolling.

I would be willing to be the guinea pig with rolling + TCA peels. But I'd like to be very sure that Follica were doing both - at the same time - before I venture forth.

Well as far as I know, they are not using any peelers. The idea is because some users have tried it and they said it worked wonders in the past but since they were not on finasteride, then they eventually died. I also saw that TCA is the best one to use, maybe the 15% one is a good starting point. I want to order some but at the time I am kinda broke, but amazon has pretty good prices on it.
I would appreciate it if you tried it for us, it would eliminate one thing that we need tested. Obviously you should only apply it on a small place to see if it makes a difference and if it turns out to be gold, well then apply it everywhere and we all win!

Or if any of you wants to send me some as a gift along with a 2.0mm roller, I will try it myself. I know there is some out there with some cash to spare.

 

[XXXXXXX]

Looks like everyone is pushing someone else to try FGF9.

Wish we knew if there were any risks involved.

It just might be the only thing between hair and no hair.

 

[TNTS]

Hello quys
New member, so i can't post a link.
It's follica patent, published at august 2012.
I don't know if has already posted, but by reading the whole thread i didn't saw anything about EGFR inhibition.


So please go to google and paste this


patents/US 8252749


then follow the first link.


It is a long text, so please read carefull.


A few parts from that patent.

In any of the forgoing methods the EGFR inhibitor can be administered systemically or topically.

By “an amount sufficient†is meant the amount of an EGFR inhibitor (e.g., a small molecule EGFR inhibitor or an EGFR antibody) required to increase the rate of new hair follicle generation and/or new hair growth on the scalp or eyebrow of a subject in comparison to the rate of new hair follicle generation or hair growth observed in the absence of treatment

By “disruption†is meant a sufficient amount of disturbance to existing hair follicles and the surrounding epidermis and/or dermis to induce an “embryonic-like†state. This embryonic-like state includes the activation, migration, and differentiation of epithelial stem cells from the bulge region of the hair follicle or the interfollicular epidermis.

By “small molecule EGFR inhibitor†is meant a molecule that inhibits the function of one or more EGFR family tyrosine kinases

As used herein, to “promote differentiation†refers to the act of increasing the percentage of cells that will differentiate as indicated or to increase the number of cells per unit area of skin that will differentiate.

By “uncommitted epidermal cell†is meant an epidermal stem cell, a bulge cell, a bulge-derived cell, or any other type of cell known in the art that can be induced to differentiate into an HF cell.
By “HF cell†is meant an HF stem cell, a dermal papilla cell, a bulb cell, a matrix cell, a hair shaft cell, an inner root sheath cell, an outer root sheath cell, a melanocyte stem cell, or a melanocyte.
By “EDIHN†is meant HF neogenesis induced by disruption of the epithelial layer, such as by abrasion or wounding, among others. Using the methods of the invention, during the reepithelialization which follows the disruption of the epithelial layer, the skin is contact with a small molecule EGFR inhibitor to promote a differentiation of an uncommitted epidermal cell into a HF cell.

EGF inhibits HF formation by EDIHN

Administration of an EGF receptor inhibitor (AG1478) leads to generation of more and larger HF compared with controls.

In the methods of the invention, the small molecule EGFR inhibitor can be delivered to the skin in a topical formulation. Topical formulations include, without limitation, creams, lotions, gels, sticks, ointments, sprays, foams, patches, aerosols, wound dressings, and drops.

At 25 and 45 days after wound induction, wound sites contained new hairs (FIG. 11, left and right panels, respectively). New hairs appeared to lack pigmentation, except when the wnt pathway was inhibited, using Dkk-1 (Dickkopf-1) during the first nine days after wounding (see Example 10).
These findings indicate that EDIHN-induced HF function normally; i.e., are capable of generating hairs.

21 day-old mice were wounded as described in previous Examples. Starting from day 11 after wounding, a time point corresponding to the point at which the wound had recently re-epithelialized, 10 mL of 1 mg/ml EGF was injected into the wound bed. EGF was injected once per day after this point for a total of 5 days. Three days later, the skin was collected, and whole-mount EDIHN assays were performed. EGF prevented HF formation as assessed by gross morphology. In addition, whole mounts of control and treated skin were analyzed with anti-K17 antibody immunostaining. All mice injected with EGF (n=4) exhibited no new HF formation (FIGS. 25 A-B), while control mice (n=2) had many new HF, as expected. (FIGS. 25 C-D).

In an additional experiment, recombinant EGF (1 microgram (mcg)/microliter (mcl)) was injected at days 11, 13 and 15 after wounding. Skin was collected at 18 days after wounding and stained for K17 and alkaline phosphotase. Once again, administration of EGF inhibited EDIHN.

The findings of this Example show that EGF inhibits HF formation. Thus, inhibiting EGF, EGFR, or one of the pathways in which they participate increases EDIHN-induced HF formation.

The findings of this Example confirm the results of the previous Example, and show that more and larger HF can be generated when EDIHN comprises, or is followed by, administration of EGFR inhibitors, or with compounds with a similar mechanism of action; e.g., Hedgehog protein and androgen antagonists.

Long post i guess...but i think that the only way to be sure that the skin stem cells will differentiate to a dermal papilla cells, after wounding, is by blocking at some point EGFR.


I know that indian study has show good results by dermaroller once a week, but if 1.5mm dr is enough for causing deep wound, (i am not sure about that although) then doing that every week, we just restart the whole process from the beginning, according follica's patent; and we do not give enough time and space for new hair follicle development.

 

[dzeris]

hi everyone just registered but been following hair loss forum for years
Wanna share mine dermarolling experience.
Using 540 needle 1.5mm roller for 7.5 weeks (first week was very careful didn't go deep etc.. hence count as 0.5)
After week 3 decided to use roller as a stamp, was pulling out lots of hair while rolling. (Got long hair)
after weeks 4-5 started to see some new hair popping out on my hairline but being very pessimistic, i think its just the hair coming back which i pulled out before. the new hair are very thick though.
weeks 6-7 got more new hair poping out some very thick some barely see able.
For next roll ordered actual dermastamp for easier stamping
Still pessimistic but hoping for best

 

[theRA]

hi everyone just registered but been following hair loss forum for years
Wanna share mine dermarolling experience.
Using 540 needle 1.5mm roller for 7.5 weeks (first week was very careful didn't go deep etc.. hence count as 0.5)
After week 3 decided to use roller as a stamp, was pulling out lots of hair while rolling. (Got long hair)
after weeks 4-5 started to see some new hair popping out on my hairline but being very pessimistic, i think its just the hair coming back which i pulled out before. the new hair are very thick though.
weeks 6-7 got more new hair poping out some very thick some barely see able.
For next roll ordered actual dermastamp for easier stamping
Still pessimistic but hoping for best

no before/after pics I guess? are you using minoxidil/finasteride too?

 

[dzeris]

I dont think results are that impressive for pic posting but i could take one today and post it if that helps, dont have before pics cos i actually didnt believe that it will help in a first place and im not here to prove anything )
Im on propecia 1mg for around 2 years now and rogaine foam for about 5 years

 

[ganonford]

Well, as you have been on finasteride and minoxidil for a very long time, if you get to see something that would speak a lot about this treatment. Keep us informed of your progress (if any) on the next weeks. Your imput is valuable.

 

[dzeris]

the new hair i wrote about (pictures taken 10min ago), will take new after 12 sessions.
As i mentioned before i still not sure is it new hair or previously pulled out ones, however they much thicker.

 

[closetmetrosexual]

Well as far as I know, they are not using any peelers. The idea is because some users have tried it and they said it worked wonders in the past but since they were not on finasteride, then they eventually died. I also saw that TCA is the best one to use, maybe the 15% one is a good starting point. I want to order some but at the time I am kinda broke, but amazon has pretty good prices on it.
I would appreciate it if you tried it for us, it would eliminate one thing that we need tested. Obviously you should only apply it on a small place to see if it makes a difference and if it turns out to be gold, well then apply it everywhere and we all win!

I'm not comfortable doing peels + dermarolling at the same time, unless I've seen some evidence towards that it will not annihilate my entire scalp.
I do know that it is definitely a no-no to roll + peel when it comes to areas of the face. (nothing to do with hair, though)

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Hello quys
I know that indian study has show good results by dermaroller once a week, but if 1.5mm dr is enough for causing deep wound, (i am not sure about that although) then doing that every week, we just restart the whole process from the beginning, according follica's patent; and we do not give enough time and space for new hair follicle development.

So, do you suggest we roll less frequently? [I'm thinking every two weeks, perhaps]
Or do something entirely different?

 

[TNTS]

closetmetrosexual,
I'm still trying to decode the follica patent. It's not easy. I guess everything has to do with how deep the wound goes.
If it is deep enough then 20 days or more, maybe is a good start.

To determine whether EDIHN was induced new hair follicles in mice wounded at the telogen stage of the hair cycle, 21-day-old mice were subjected to EDIHN using a 1-cm excisional wound, as described in Example 2. Skin was then examined by whole-mount assay for indications of new HF. As depicted in FIG. 16, after 11 days, new HF were not evident by macroscopic examination (top panel), AP staining of the dermis (bottom left panel), or K17 staining of the epidermis (bottom right panel). After 14 days, as depicted in FIG. 17, dermal papilla cells were detected in the dermis (left panel) and HF stem cells in the epidermis (right panel), demonstrating that new follicles were being formed. After 17 days, the new follicles were more developed, as shown by examination of the dermis and epidermis (FIG. 18, left and right panels, respectively). This method induced formation of an average of 49 new follicles in the wound, a number that was consistent over three separate experiments, as depicted in Table 2.

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i think the whole trick is in the right time for a some kind of egfr inhibitor.

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Then the epidermis stem cells will take the message for differentiation to a dp cells

 

[jason5]

First time poster, but been reading the forums for awhile.

I've done 6 sessions so far with 1.5 mm roller. I roll till redness appears and see spots of blood then I stop. I'm using lipogaine and regenepure shampoo. I have very diffuse loss and I would say I have lost about 70% of my hair. After 6 weeks I'm seeing some results, nothing amazing but I have noticed slight thickening of existing hair and lots and lots of vellus hair that I've never seen before. I'm also detecting some slight changes to some vellus hair that are turning ever so slightly dark.

I've also noticed some weak areas in my diffuse pattern getting a shed and some areas getting better.

 

[Kirby]

So, do you suggest we roll less frequently? [I'm thinking every two weeks, perhaps]
Or do something entirely different?

I'm also wondering if at this stage, if we need to roll less frequently in order to improve the results. I mean, a week is essentially a human social construct, our own cells don't work following the calendar. The original study itself was a pilot after all. BTW I don't think we can (yet) replicate Follica ourselves, for now IMO our goal should be finding a means to grow lots of hair better than a typical Big 3 combo.

 

[DesperateOne]

closetmetrosexual,
I'm still trying to decode the follica patent. It's not easy. I guess everything has to do with how deep the wound goes.
If it is deep enough then 20 days or more, maybe is a good start.

To determine whether EDIHN was induced new hair follicles in mice wounded at the telogen stage of the hair cycle, 21-day-old mice were subjected to EDIHN using a 1-cm excisional wound, as described in Example 2. Skin was then examined by whole-mount assay for indications of new HF. As depicted in FIG. 16, after 11 days, new HF were not evident by macroscopic examination (top panel), AP staining of the dermis (bottom left panel), or K17 staining of the epidermis (bottom right panel). After 14 days, as depicted in FIG. 17, dermal papilla cells were detected in the dermis (left panel) and HF stem cells in the epidermis (right panel), demonstrating that new follicles were being formed. After 17 days, the new follicles were more developed, as shown by examination of the dermis and epidermis (FIG. 18, left and right panels, respectively). This method induced formation of an average of 49 new follicles in the wound, a number that was consistent over three separate experiments, as depicted in Table 2.

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i think the whole trick is in the right time for a some kind of egfr inhibitor.

- - - Updated - - -

Then the epidermis stem cells will take the message for differentiation to a dp cells

That patent says 2012, so how is that new. In any case, after reading this it looks like we need to get our hands on egfr inhibitor. They say it can be found in creams and lotions and applied topically. This is what we needed I believe, this is the final piece of the puzzle! We wound -> apply minoxidil after a couple of hours -> and also egfr inhibitor daily and one important thin is to wait for at least 14 days after wounding. I am a fool for trying to wound every six days. Anyways, we still need the optimal depth for this procedure and we will be gooden, I personally think it's going to be 2mm based in derma rolling experience. Obviously the next step is to find where we can get this egfr inhibitor, I saw a website selling it but they probably only sell to research labs. I am sure some knowledgeable forum members will find a topical already on the market that contains this. Dammit Rambo, we need you now!!!

 

[closetmetrosexual]

This was posted in the semen thread. Just as relevant here.
Wound healing phases:

 

[bibz]

Squee j'ai une petite question stp, et je me permet de Telogen Effluvium la poser en francais a cause de mon niveau d'anglais approximatif lol, sa fait 3 semaine que j'utilise le dermarolling 2.0mm au niveau des golfes et de ma ligne frontal et ce jusqu'a qu'il y est ecoulement de sang(1fois/semaine, minoxidil 24h aprés), et je subis un gros shedding specialement au niveau de cette region, tu penses que c'est normal?
Merci de ta reponse sa me stresse trop :s
PS : Merci de t'être battu pour notre pays !!!!!